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Old 2008-08-28, 21:59   Link #1061
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
If the good list was exclusive for ethnic Tibetians then I would say Tibetians were gaining perferable treatment but as you can see in the lower Direct/indirect impact list it illustrates that it is applied to people living in Tibet meaning the people who have finacial resources reaps the most.
In other words it's can be considered as a colonization insentive for the Han people and not really a welfare plan for the Tibetians.
The good list IS only for ethnic Tibetans.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:18   Link #1062
Doraneko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
If the good list was exclusive for ethnic Tibetians then I would say Tibetians were gaining perferable treatment but as you can see in the lower Direct/indirect impact list it illustrates that it is applied to people living in Tibet meaning the people who have finacial resources reaps the most.
In other words it's can be considered as a colonization insentive for the Han people and not really a welfare plan for the Tibetians.
Besides Hans and Tibetans, there are seven other major ethnic groups and hundreds of minor ones. I cannot recall any preferential policy directed specifically at the Hans.

Business related beneficial policies are for attracting foreign investments to beef up the economy, so limiting that to Tibetans only pretty much defeats its point.

Of course all policies can be scrutinized from all points of views. The PRC certainly wants more manpower from other parts of China (Han or not) to be in Tibet to help with the development work, so be the policies incentive or not, they pretty much serve as an means to an end (econ development), rather than the end itself.

FYI, the policy of developing the coast first and encouraging the developed cities there to provide fund and manpower to develop the continental region is one of the fundamental policies laid down by Deng Xiaoping.

The wealth gap phenomenon can be found in any region in the early stages of economic development. Influx of migrant workers and foreign entrepreneurs in those stages are not exclusive to Tibet either.

Social preferential treatments, like lower entrance requirements for university education and professional qualification, are limited to the Tibetan ethnic group only (within the scope of the current discussion).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
edit: Doraneko's post is about the best post I've seen in the thread in terms of actual discussion.
Thanks! I'd also love to see the discussion to proceed to a more constructuive direction, rather than the exchanges of slogans and the battles on sources.

Last edited by Doraneko; 2008-08-28 at 23:35.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:39   Link #1063
Lathdrinor
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I think it's pretty much a given that Han Chinese migration into Tibet is incentivized. The government has every reason to promote such a policy after the preferential treatment of Tibetans failed to produce the effects desired (ie stop Tibetans from protesting). They've already done it in places like Xinjiang, besides.

The history of the Chinese central government's relationship with Tibet is a series of ups and downs. Officials have tried both carrot and stick, but the fact that the Dalai Lama, a figure central to Tibet's Buddhist culture, was cast out means that Tibetans are never going to go long with the party line. It's like asking Muslims to live peacefully under a state that vilifies Muhammed, or asking the Japanese to denounce their emperor (the US planned to do this, but backed off when it realized the repercussions). The PRC has a lot to learn when it comes to dealing with religion.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:46   Link #1064
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
I think it's pretty much a given that Han Chinese migration into Tibet is incentivized. The government has every reason to promote such a policy after the preferential treatment of Tibetans failed to produce the effects desired (ie stop Tibetans from protesting). They've already done it in places like Xinjiang, besides.

The history of the Chinese central government's relationship with Tibet is a series of ups and downs. Officials have tried both carrot and stick, but the fact that the Dalai Lama, a figure central to Tibet's Buddhist culture, was cast out means that Tibetans are never going to go long with the party line. It's like asking Muslims to live peacefully under a state that vilifies Muhammed, or asking the Japanese to denounce their emperor (the US planned to do this, but backed off when it realized the repercussions). The PRC has a lot to learn when it comes to dealing with religion.
Yeah, PRC is still pretty much anti-religion, and more capitalist as of now.
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Old 2008-08-28, 23:56   Link #1065
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Well... one of the fundamentals of Marxism is that religion was developed as a tool of the ruling class to manipulate the masses. Chinese communism melded that a bit with Chinese philosophy (that Celestial bureaucracy) with the idea that the result is a win-win with everyone being better off than before.

Reality is that no matter what system you use, there's always going to be some greed and corruption, there's always going to be authoritarian tendencies, there's always going to be some stubborn bull-headedness.

At the time they went into Tibet and until quite recently - the PRC was quite ruthless in suppressing religion of any kind.... and Tibetan Buddhism for the common people was really more religion than philosophy.
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Old 2008-08-29, 01:34   Link #1066
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Yeah, I'd like to point out an easily overlooked point regarding to religion/s in mainland China:

While the PRC government claims to be antitheistic, probably for fear that religion may weaken its control, most of the non-religious Chinese people are actually pantheistic or simply aren't sure about the existence of God/s. That makes most of us insensitive about the importance of the spiritual head to the Tibetian ethnic group. Probably a weak link that should be fixed soon?

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post

Reality is that no matter what system you use, there's always going to be some greed and corruption, there's always going to be authoritarian tendencies, there's always going to be some stubborn bull-headedness.
You've got the point.

I don't care about other countries, but, if mine is corrupted I have to fight for the better.
What annoys me is that the public fund officials legitimately eat up exceeds the input on education.
There are so many “reasonable” people around me who are constantly pointing out that China isn't ready for democracy yet due to poor education level. If that's the point, why don't FIX it?
How could I believe that China is changing for the better if the media, the textbooks, the propoganda ceaselessy emphasizes that the CCP is the one and only ruling power that could give us what we need?

Last edited by dec4rhapsody; 2008-08-29 at 01:52.
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Old 2008-08-29, 02:01   Link #1067
Whiteshirt
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I'm a tad late to the discussion but I would like to say something about Taiwan, which was discussed a few pages ago.

As a person who was born and lived in Taiwan, it is a sad thing to see how my homeland has fallen so greatly. I moved to Australia when I was about 10 and while my parents worked day and night to pay for our living expenses and my school fees, they certainly accept they have a better life as of now.

The Taiwanese seem to be quite fired up about the topic of being democratic and free. Recently on a talk show, they discussed the topic of democracy (seems to be the topic of the year) and how 'free' countries such as Australia and the United States are and how people in those countries can do whatever they like, whenever they like. Perhaps the Taiwanese are naive and take things literally, but this attitude seems to be taken the whole population by storm. They literally do whatever they like, whenever they like.

A few weeks ago, my father saw and was absolutely disgusted to see the state of the once disciplined Taiwanese army. Soldiers skip their posts, procrastinate when they should be cleaning up the damage of the tsunami, and demand that their barracks be given luxuries ranging from air conditioning do good quality beds. Why? Because they feel they have the right to demand and act as such because anyone who enforces rules and heavy discipline onto them are simply undemocratic.

I feel for the new president. He's a wonderful man who does what he can do, but he can only do so much to people who refuse to obey the law. He puts lifeguards and metal fencing to prevent people from swimming in dangerous waters, but people just ignore the lifeguards and clip the metal fencing anyway. Understandable, since the country is unbearable in summer, but the law is the law and the law is there to ensure people are kept in line. It's a vain attempt to try and put some law and order into the country, because 'democracy' (pseudo-Western democracy) fever has taken over the country.

Who knows why the country is in such a mess. But I have a feeling it is because democracy was installed far too quickly doubled with the fact the whole 'Taiwanese democracy/Taiwan for UN/Taiwan Independence' bullshit was just propaganda in the first place. All I know is, the news I get on Taiwanese TV is the equal to something out of a melodramatic soap opera.
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Old 2008-08-29, 02:09   Link #1068
dec4rhapsody
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I don't think democracy means that one can do whatever he or she wants to, and the concept of democracy shouldn't be disapproved if some nation made a mess out of it.
Blame the government, not the word.

Of course, political reform should neither be rushed nor follow a set pattern. Each nation has its own problems to deal with and should apply their own solution to it.

Therefore, I'm fine if one day our government comes up with a democratic system fitting in Chinese characteristics, as long as it IS democratic at all. The problem is: Where is the bottom line? And who can decide the minimum resemblance each democratic system shares??

What I'm afraid of, is that a horse is no longer a horse when it's a white horse(<-Chinese idm.), which is pretty much the case of Socialism with Chinese characteristics.

Last edited by dec4rhapsody; 2008-08-29 at 02:19.
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Old 2008-08-29, 06:59   Link #1069
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteshirt View Post
The Taiwanese seem to be quite fired up about the topic of being democratic and free. Recently on a talk show, they discussed the topic of democracy (seems to be the topic of the year) and how 'free' countries such as Australia and the United States are and how people in those countries can do whatever they like, whenever they like. Perhaps the Taiwanese are naive and take things literally, but this attitude seems to be taken the whole population by storm. They literally do whatever they like, whenever they like.
Being free and living under a democracy are not automatically linked. We've associated the two based on historical examples and when compared against non-democratic societies, but that's about it.

Quote:
A few weeks ago, my father saw and was absolutely disgusted to see the state of the once disciplined Taiwanese army. Soldiers skip their posts, procrastinate when they should be cleaning up the damage of the tsunami, and demand that their barracks be given luxuries ranging from air conditioning do good quality beds. Why? Because they feel they have the right to demand and act as such because anyone who enforces rules and heavy discipline onto them are simply undemocratic.
I think this has less to do with people taking freedom to an extreme and more to do with people feeling a sense of entitlement. That isn't limited to Taiwan, many people in America also seem to feel this way. It may partially explain why we have so many lawsuits here. It also seems to be present in the military - just recently it came to light that air force generals had OK'd a project so that their mobile offices (basically modified cargo containers that can be inserted into and removed from transport airplanes) would come not only with desks and a (luxury) bed, but luxury furniture and such amenities as a large plasma TV and DVD player. This was an incredibly expensive project, but the real point to get upset over is the fact that Congress denied them the permission to use funds on the project, but they did it anyway. That's truly a sense of entitlement.

I wouldn't be surprised if other countries had similar issues. I don't think that the sense of entitlement arises from being free, but rather from being "spoiled" and taking things for granted. A person who lacks humility while growing up and who is never truly denied anything or who always feels like everything is within their reach will likely feel that they are entitled to doing what they like and receiving what makes them happy and more comfortable.
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Old 2008-08-29, 11:24   Link #1070
Hari Michiru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
I don't care about other countries, but, if mine is corrupted I have to fight for the better.
What annoys me is that the public fund officials legitimately eat up exceeds the input on education.
There are so many “reasonable” people around me who are constantly pointing out that China isn't ready for democracy yet due to poor education level. If that's the point, why don't FIX it?
How could I believe that China is changing for the better if the media, the textbooks, the propoganda ceaselessy emphasizes that the CCP is the one and only ruling power that could give us what we need?
I'd give China another generation to educate their working class first, and then make some small steps towards democracy. After all, people have to understand the benefits AND the responsibilities first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteshirt View Post
I feel for the new president. He's a wonderful man who does what he can do, but he can only do so much to people who refuse to obey the law. He puts lifeguards and metal fencing to prevent people from swimming in dangerous waters, but people just ignore the lifeguards and clip the metal fencing anyway. Understandable, since the country is unbearable in summer, but the law is the law and the law is there to ensure people are kept in line. It's a vain attempt to try and put some law and order into the country, because 'democracy' (pseudo-Western democracy) fever has taken over the country.
Yeah, Ma Ying Jeou is doing the best he can to fix up the mess that Chen Sui Ben left him. I heard that they have a curfew for opening business too (heard from a Taiwanese), and that the police accepts bribes from the store owners so they can open beyond the curfew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteshirt View Post
Who knows why the country is in such a mess. But I have a feeling it is because democracy was installed far too quickly doubled with the fact the whole 'Taiwanese democracy/Taiwan for UN/Taiwan Independence' bullshit was just propaganda in the first place. All I know is, the news I get on Taiwanese TV is the equal to something out of a melodramatic soap opera.
Taiwanese TV is a laugh. Remember back when they started fighting in Parliment?
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Old 2008-08-29, 11:56   Link #1071
dec4rhapsody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
I'd give China another generation to educate their working class first, and then make some small steps towards democracy. After all, people have to understand the benefits AND the responsibilities first.

Sure that it would be essential. But I can't see the light, part of myself begins to think that we are driven away from a remarkable change (in some aspects).


Before the Tibet riot we've got a sample at least, about how things could be working, yet Western bias+self-righteous PRC distorted China's image as well as our understanding of the outside. Now there is a setback in people's mind.
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Old 2008-08-29, 11:57   Link #1072
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
Sure that it would be essential. But I can't see the light, part of myself begins to think that we are driven away from a remarkable change (in some aspects).


Before the Tibet riot we've got a sample at least, about how things could be working, yet Western bias+self-righteous PRC distorted China's image as well as our understanding of the outside. Now there is a setback in people's mind.
I hope this won't set China back too bad, or we're back to square one with the Cultural Revolution. And that's not a good thing...
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:25   Link #1073
dec4rhapsody
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Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
I hope this won't set China back too bad, or we're back to square one with the Cultural Revolution. And that's not a good thing...
Well, you must have seen some fenqing, who make up a large percentage of the college students, which is worse than bad....

Things they do:

1. Going totally berserk when some one admits he or she doesn't agree with some of the PRC policies.

2. Calling on boycotts on Western products, which pretty much destroy the economic structure.

3. Bullying fellow Chinese citizens that expressed strong disapproval against extreme opinions and acts, and making their lives a living hell.

4. Making up fake coverages about Anti-China acts, and driving public rage towards some nations.

5. Over-enhancing the value of patriotism, making it the one and only criterion.

Last edited by dec4rhapsody; 2008-08-29 at 12:37. Reason: grammar
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:28   Link #1074
Hari Michiru
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Well, you must have seen some fenqing, who make up a large percentage of the college students, which is worse than bad....
Yeah. Damn the West for brainwashing them.
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:34   Link #1075
dec4rhapsody
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Yeah. Damn the West for brainwashing them.
Some hidden ultra-right forces in China are also to blame.
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:37   Link #1076
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
Some hidden ultra-right forces in China are also to blame.
Hmm..yeah. Extremists are so hard to deal with these days.
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:54   Link #1077
dec4rhapsody
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Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Hmm..yeah. Extremists are so hard to deal with these days.
However, CR II won't happen since the majority cares more about their own good after all, unless those extremists can prove that everyone else in the world wants to eliminate China.
So more western pressure/extrusion+improper response=insanity of 1.3 billion + (perhaps) the bomb.
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Old 2008-08-29, 12:59   Link #1078
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody View Post
However, CR II won't happen since the majority cares more about their own good after all, unless those extremists can prove that everyone else in the world wants to eliminate China.
So more western pressure/extrusion+improper response=insanity of 1.3 billion + (perhaps) the bomb.
That'd be a sight to see.

And yeah, most Chinese people care more about their own good (to the point of selfishness), and we don't really unify unless someone insults our pride (don't know about you, but I still hate to lose 'face' xD). Or unless something big happens, like the Sichuan Earthquake.
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Old 2008-08-29, 13:08   Link #1079
Vexx
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The fenqing are basically the Chinese version of wacko-nationalists that every country seems to generate their own version of. They're irrational, illogical, thuggish, and basically only damage their country's image. The historical model for this sort are the fascist thugs Mussolini was known for - or some of the attack dogs of the US neocon right. They are tools used for the purpose of shutting down thoughtful discussion or oversight/accountability.
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Old 2008-08-29, 16:02   Link #1080
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Yeah. Damn the West for brainwashing them.
Hai?

The West?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
The fenqing are basically the Chinese version of wacko-nationalists that every country seems to generate their own version of. They're irrational, illogical, thuggish, and basically only damage their country's image. The historical model for this sort are the fascist thugs Mussolini was known for - or some of the attack dogs of the US neocon right. They are tools used for the purpose of shutting down thoughtful discussion or oversight/accountability.
Unfortunately, the Cultural Revolution -- the Chinese version of the infamous "revolution gone wrong" period every revolution has -- is much more recent than similar destructive fascistic movements in other countries. The large numbers of fenqings is very much troubling considering that history, and I do hope the Chinese people and government (yes, the evil nasty PRC one ) keeps them down where they can't cause too much trouble.

So while pathetic BNP scums in Britain runs free, Le Pen's racist supporters openly advocate their ugly stances, and neocons in the USA raise disturbed eyebrows with their antics, I think the fenqing issue has the potential to be a lot more serious. This China is as young as she is old, I hope this growth phase will pass without too much damage to anyone. As a history enthusiast I'd rather not lose yet another magnificent temple from the time of the Emperors to some insane puffed up youth movements really.
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