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Old 2008-03-24, 07:12   Link #21
Ermes Marana
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There is a lot of bias against foreign games in Japan, thus it is impossible to compete fairly on the merit of the game.


I disagree with the innovation thing though. Look at these four games:


Shadow of the Colossus, Ico, Jet Set Radio, Shenmue 2.


Innovative games from Japan, and probably all in the top ten of all time. I wonder how popular these were in Japan though, vs America?


As for FPS, I'm not a big fan, but the Marathon series is awesome, too bad most never played it.
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Old 2008-03-24, 09:25   Link #22
Sety
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
Motion sickness, pops to mind. That is a reason i hear a lot from japanese people.
That happens to be one of my reasons too. FPS give me absolutely incredible motion sickness and its rare if ever they don't, besides I enjoy third person more I'd like more games like the Splinter Cell series.
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Old 2008-03-24, 11:14   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
Just a thing: you need to split Korea and Japan.


The people of the two countries have widely different tastes in video games.
Don't you guys only play Lineage and Starcraft?
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Old 2008-03-24, 11:43   Link #24
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Also, Japanese people generally want more of the same, whereas Americans love innovation. That is not to say one is better than the other, just different preferences. Look at FFXII and DQIX and the hundreds of similar looking eroge titles.
Umm... the Final Fantasy series is often taken as an example of innovation within the JRPG genre. DQ is obviously the complete opposite and it's a valid example for what you wanted to say, but certainly not FF. AND certainly not FFXII, which was actually shunned in the American coast for being too different to what rabid FF fanboys were used to.

Anyways, as Solace said, it's got a lot to do with presentation, and the RPG genre is the best example. Ledgem also pointed out that Western games tend to be more immersive, and that's easily seen when you compare both kinds of RPGs.

What I hate is that, when a game like FFXII comes in and tries to mix up different elements from both styles of games, it gets completely shunned as an inferior product.

As for me, personally... well, I'm an anime fan, so I tend to prioritize a nice presentation (that doesn't mean good graphics, it means a good graphical style. Crysis has awesome graphics, but I think FFXII beats it in terms of styling and actual creative work done with graphics themselves. They actually put an effort in presentation and fluency of animation instead of just piling up polygons and bloom effects) and good storytelling. Western RPGs tend to bore me to death, except when they're honest about their immersive approach, like the Elder Scrolls series, or the crazy exception of JRPG-styled storytelling (KotOR I comes to mind).

Oh, and the market's been saturated so much that I'm starting to hate FPS and RTS titles. I never liked them too much to begin with, but it's starting to tire me. Good thing I've moved away from PC gaming, luckily forever.
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Old 2008-03-24, 12:21   Link #25
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Don't you guys only play Lineage and Starcraft?
No we only play Starcraft, anything that is made by Blizzard and bunch of MMORPG! Though seriously most of the East Asia from what I believe plays PC games rather then console, expection being Japan, though Japan do play certain PC game a lot .
Also I think that the title of this thread should change to Japan vs Everywhere else in video game world.
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Old 2008-03-24, 12:32   Link #26
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
What I hate is that, when a game like FFXII comes in and tries to mix up different elements from both styles of games, it gets completely shunned as an inferior product.
The gameplay itself of FFXII was never shunned though. It was the narration and the story line. Gimme FFX story with FFXII gameplay and Im a happy gamer. :O
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Old 2008-03-24, 13:06   Link #27
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The gameplay itself of FFXII was never shunned though. It was the narration and the story line. Gimme FFX story with FFXII gameplay and Im a happy gamer. :O
The point is, it was misunderstood. FFXII was in no way attempting a FFX-styled storytelling, and people shunned it for that. That was my point.
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Old 2008-03-24, 13:07   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Sety View Post
That is an oxymoron if I ever saw one when you consider how horribly oversaturated the western market is with FPS. Theres only so many ways you can spinoff the FPS genre and chances are they've been already done 7-10 years ago. All they're doing now is making them shinier.
Your comment will likely set off some FPS fans. I respectfully disagree with what you said.

On one hand, you can look at the FPS genre and say that you're just running around shooting things. The storylines, if you want to even count that as something where innovation counts toward the genre, have largely all been done and are plays on the same thing.

The innovation comes in the gameplay. In past FPS games you ran around and shot things, period. With the advent of 3D suddenly you were able to jump as well. With increasing technology the game's AI has become better. Also with technology advancements realistic physics are being incorporated into games. These do impact the gameplay. On one hand you're still running around shooting things (or driving around, or flying around) but all of these advancements have altered the gameplay. Play a game like F.E.A.R. and then compare it to the original Doom - the difference would be like night and day.

On the other hand, let's compare Final Fantasy to Final Fantasy X. If FPS games are all about running around and shooting things, RPGs like these are all about running around talking to NPCs and running around, going through random encounters by selecting attacks off of a menu. There have been some modifications to the battle systems but otherwise I'm inclined to say that the RPG genre hasn't changed nearly as much with technological advancements as the FPS genre has. I don't make that statement to say that FPS games are better than RPGs, but because FPS games attempt to emulate a first-person (reality) perspective there's a lot more for them to change in order to alter what goes into the gameplay.

I suppose it comes down to how finely you want to examine what goes into games of each genre. I don't care to go over every single detail of an RPG and an FPS to find out which has changed more over time to prove my point (or be disproven); even if I did I'd probably leave out certain points, or devalue certain points that others would consider as having a lot of importance. Don't worry about it too much.
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Old 2008-03-24, 13:11   Link #29
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There have been some modifications to the battle systems but otherwise I'm inclined to say that the RPG genre hasn't changed nearly as much with technological advancements as the FPS genre has.
Hmm... RPGs have changed a lot with improved technologies, as much as FPS have and more. Look at the original Final Fantasy and take Final Fantasy XII--lots of differences there, from unfixed camera to cinematic sequences, no more separate random battles... They've also gone from a focus on battling and gameplay to a focus on storytelling (I take FFVI as a milestone in this regard, and FFVII as the crystallization of that change).

(BTW, I'm not forgetting about all the other awesome RPGs, it's just that FF is, IMO, the franchise that has always carried the flag in terms of innovation within the genre).
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:50   Link #30
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Just to state the obvious Koreans have a great hunger for MMO's
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:03   Link #31
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Well, Crysis really was just a technical showcase. On High end settings, it's absolutely gorgeous, but in the end it's just Far Cry 2.0. The large leaps for the FPS genre have mainly been in the story and presentation department, with some updates to controls here and there. F.E.A.R.s slow mo feature comes to mind, but that was also done in Max Payne. What F.E.A.R is really known for is being a damn scary game.

It really wasn't until Half Life that the FPS genre broke out of the Doom mold, and since then there have been many creative titles. Heck when Doom 3 came out the largest was complaint was that while the graphics were amazing (for the time), it really wasn't much of a leap ahead that people were expecting from the series that started it all. Other games had beat Doom at it's own game and then some.

On the topic of Final Fantasy, there were many changes per game like active time, job system, the draw system, the summon and sphere systems, but I've found that many non FF games have also helped innovate the genre. Panzer Dragoon Saga had an extremely unique fighting system that tried to get players to do more than wait for their turn. Chrono Trigger needs no explanation. Vagrant Story, Persona?

It's pretty safe to say that stereotypes aside, both genres have grown by leaps and bounds in the last (almost) 30 years.

I still believe it's the presentation and not the immersive nature of the games that shows the difference in east vs west. I've been just as immersed in Zelda, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, and Resident Evil as I have been with Gears of War, Command and Conquer, Planescape, and God of War.

Then again, I'm more open to games than some people. I've noticed that "hardcore" gamers in the US seem to prefer realism over style, and vice versa for Asian games. There's a few games that break out of that and appeal to both cultures (the oft cited FF7 as an example), but there are many games from both markets that never get the proper respect they deserve simply because they're too "western, eastern, anime-ish, realistic", etc. It's an almost silly bias, because people are missing out on some great games.
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:58   Link #32
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
The point is, it was misunderstood. FFXII was in no way attempting a FFX-styled storytelling, and people shunned it for that. That was my point.
Yeah, but the fans don't really dislike change. I mean come on almost every FF game is different. FFXII just wasn't gripping enough. That means it was disliked because an aspect was bad not because the fans are conservetive pricks.
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Old 2008-03-24, 23:29   Link #33
JINNSK
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I'm Japanese.My english is poor. Sorry.

I am basically arcade gamer.
But,I had played some major western games on PC platform.
I like them(GTA,HL2,QUAKE,DOOM...).
But I am in the minority in Japan.
My friends have never played even major titles.

Japanese gamers who love western games must select PC or XBox360.
(And PC users like me have to play with english version at most cases.)
In ohter platforms(Wii,PS3,PS2,DS,PSP),Most are only Japanese product.
And in arcade platform,can't find western title.It's just zero.

In Japan, western games are very rare.(I think Western game players < Korean MMO players.)
Only heavy gamers own them.
Most light gamers don't know even their existences.
Because they do not know western games, they do not buy them.
Because they do not buy,game makers do not supply western games.
I think the stagnation of market is caused by this spiral.
I desire coming of great product that can break this spiral.
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Old 2008-03-24, 23:45   Link #34
WanderingKnight
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Yeah, but the fans don't really dislike change. I mean come on almost every FF game is different. FFXII just wasn't gripping enough. That means it was disliked because an aspect was bad not because the fans are conservetive pricks.
Well, I believe this started happening between X and XII. Somehow, with the massification of the internet, rabid fanboys found other rabid fanboys, and their voices were heard stronger. Masses tend to dislike change quite a bit. And thus they can now moan and bitch about FFXII because it isn't something it never attempted to be. I'm not saying XII is an awesome game by any means, I'm just saying people criticize it for the wrong reasons (I'm getting a deja vu from the FFXIII thread, so I'll drop it here).

By the way! Today I stumbled upon an awesome article on arcade gaming culture, which also highlights the differences between Japan and the western world in that respect. Warning! If you've got too strong an opinion on games or don't like to be confronted about your tastes, refrain from clicking that link!

(PS: It made me go and blast some bucks at the nearest arcade, so read it!)
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Old 2008-03-25, 01:23   Link #35
Jays
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I remember my local arcade... it got shut down, dang it had my high score for Marvel vs. Capcom.

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As much as people disliked Final Fantasy XII, I loved it, partly because it was the first ever JRPG title I've ever played. For the most part the only RPG games I played where either from Bethesda (Elder Scrolls, Fallout) and Bioware (Kotor), and I thought they were alright, except for Kotor, which I love considering my rabid love for Star Wars wont cease at any moment.

Going back to Final Fantasy XII, the thing I enjoyed most, was the gameplay, I loved the Gambit system, because of the way you could setup everything pre battle, and then like a smart tactitian analyze and adjust accordingly. However the gameplay felt very smooth, even if the battles took ages to end.

I still don't see why that game gets soo much flak, even if the characters in it leave way to much to be desired.
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Old 2008-03-25, 07:27   Link #36
Sety
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Your comment will likely set off some FPS fans. I respectfully disagree with what you said.
Well they can be less rabid then if one comment is enough to send them on a manhunt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
With the advent of 3D suddenly you were able to jump as well.
Last I checked you could jump in 2D as well, nothing new there. Also last I checked I said nothing about 3D being bad. I mentioned FPS being overused and that is a the truth. Theres nothing particularly innovating about better physics, shinier graphics as they're a natural progression of technology. Now adding to the story and extra gameplay elements is something great but could we do it from a view where I don't struggle to see a dog gnawing me to death on my leg? Or doesn't try killing me with migrains from overuse of blurring, dizziness and bullet time?

I miss my arcades too, thats where real gamers went to socialize and kickass.
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Old 2008-03-25, 07:59   Link #37
2H-Dragon
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
By the way! Today I stumbled upon an awesome article on arcade gaming culture, which also highlights the differences between Japan and the western world in that respect. Warning! If you've got too strong an opinion on games or don't like to be confronted about your tastes, refrain from clicking that link!
It's funny that he ignores the whole online gaming aspect. Sure the games are easy to play, but all of that is an intro to the online gameplay. Where in arcades you are a hero of an arcade. These days you are a hero of the world where you can make a living out of gaming. In korea the "cyber athletes" actually date super models. Not to mention you also have team matches which add another layer of difficulty you would never experience in the arcades. To off set that you have the single player games where people can take things at their own pace. You have to understand that not everyone plays a game for the challange.

Sure I do miss arcade gaming, though I could only do that when I was on a vacation(since arcade gaming wasn't really that booming in the Netherlands). It was fun to see how other people played. Still these days I can take my laptop call a few people and we'll start up a quick lan. While I do detest the Wii(next to a few games) with a passion it's the thing to have when you have company. Not that the PS3 and XBOX 360 aren't fun with people around. It's just you can play the wii and have fun people who aren't gamers from the start.

Another thing he says Ninja Gaiden isn't hard. A game where you need to full atention span and need to learn certain sets of movement and paterns and with a camera that can go gay on you. Is a hard game in my book. Arcade give the impression of being harder, because you can't save the game.
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Old 2008-03-25, 08:19   Link #38
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It's funny that he ignores the whole online gaming aspect.
He doesn't. He says (I don't remember if it was in the article or in a forum, when discussing it) that online gaming just isn't the same, because you don't have the "pay per play" element involved (well, you have to pay monthly in some cases, but it's not the same). Plus, don't tell me it's the same socializing over the internet than socializing face-to-face

Quote:
Another thing he says Ninja Gaiden isn't hard. A game where you need to full atention span and need to learn certain sets of movement and paterns and with a camera that can go gay on you. Is a hard game in my book. Arcade give the impression of being harder, because you can't save the game.
Play some old shmup classics, like the DonPachi series, Gigawing, etc. Those are HARD, but they make you learn from your mistakes. Games where you can save can be solved by chance more easily.
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Old 2008-03-25, 08:35   Link #39
2H-Dragon
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He doesn't. He says (I don't remember if it was in the article or in a forum, when discussing it) that online gaming just isn't the same, because you don't have the "pay per play" element involved (well, you have to pay monthly in some cases, but it's not the same). Plus, don't tell me it's the same socializing over the internet than socializing face-to-face



Play some old shmup classics, like the DonPachi series, Gigawing, etc. Those are HARD, but they make you learn from your mistakes. Games where you can save can be solved by chance more easily.
All I can say so what the online gaming is played at a higher level then arcades. It gives a better challenge or if you want a challenge you can handle. Well I never saw gaming something to use for socializing. Hence I dislike people who feel the need to talk while gaming(online).

About those old games. There's a difference between hard and unfair. Games like Mushihime sama. Where you have to memorize the whole course is just retarted and getting killed for just one mistake. That's unfair. You're better off to go and learn drumming or go memorizing school books. >_>

Don't get me wrong. I think Ninja Gaiden is quite doable and on a good level. I prefer this kind of challenge in an action game, but to call it easy would be lying.

edit: The Ninja Gaiden on the Nes was good, because it was hard, but they didn't go as far as to make it unfair. Though the end boss made me go crazy. >_> Now thinking it about it. It was a bit unfair too, but compared to the games of that time it was fair. o_O

Last edited by 2H-Dragon; 2008-03-25 at 08:56.
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Old 2008-03-25, 09:06   Link #40
WanderingKnight
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About those old games. There's a difference between hard and unfair. Games like Mushihime sama. Where you have to memorize the whole course is just retarted and getting killed for just one mistake. That's unfair. You're better off to go and learn drumming or go memorizing school books. >_>
It's not unfair, and it's not about memorizing. Yes, there is some memorizing involved, but that goes more along the lines of "keep yourself on the right in this area" and not on the exact pattern, since it would make no sense at all. Games like Mushihime-sama, aptly called "bullet hell" games, are all about using your tiny-hitbox-ship to avoid seemingly impossible barrages of bullets. You can't expect to beat those games on the first go--that would be kind of silly.

It's not about "fairness"... though of course, it depends on what you expect from a game. His whole point in the article is that you can't expect an arcade game to play like a console one.
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