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Old 2010-05-07, 01:37   Link #61
Socke
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Actually God of War games flopped in Japan not because they didn't appreciate Greek mythology but rather they preferred DMC's and Bayonetta's style. Put all Devil May Cry and Bayonetta games and compared them with God of War games.

Kratos is never a pretty boy(like Dante, Virgil and Nero) and sexy vixen(like Bayonetta). DMC had cheesy rock/metal music(and cheesy seductive pop music for Bayonetta) but God of War had neither but instead its music is more orchestral, a well-done one.
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Old 2010-05-07, 11:02   Link #62
Kyero Fox
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lol i just read the OP's comment on games not needing gameplay to be a game, what on earth is he smoking? its called a GAME because it has GAMEPLAY, if it doesnt have gameplay its a damn movie.

I dont belive any game genre is becoming crappy, only companies and game designers are.

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Originally Posted by Socke View Post
Actually God of War games flopped in Japan not because they didn't appreciate Greek mythology but rather they preferred DMC's and Bayonetta's style. Put all Devil May Cry and Bayonetta games and compared them with God of War games.

Kratos is never a pretty boy(like Dante, Virgil and Nero) and sexy vixen(like Bayonetta). DMC had cheesy rock/metal music(and cheesy seductive pop music for Bayonetta) but God of War had neither but instead its music is more orchestral, a well-done one.
Bayonetta is more of a strip tease of a game
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Old 2010-05-07, 11:26   Link #63
Sheba
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Even the point & click adventure game have a gameplay on their own, maybe not as elaborate and demanding as Street Fighter and the likes but it does exist.
The drawing points of this genre were:

- Puzzle solving, as in "Maybe that item I took back then may have a use in that situation". And we can't blame developpers for not trying variations on the formula. Games like Goblins did try.

- Dialogue. People who enjoyed the olde Lucas Art point & click or Space Quest knows what I mean ("It makes my nipples hard"). Also, check this out and you'll understand.

- The story of course.

This genre is one of those I miss the most nowadays in a market oversaturated with FPS and RTS.

Last edited by Sheba; 2010-05-07 at 11:38.
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Old 2010-05-07, 21:49   Link #64
Sanger Zonvolt
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I just use each of the markets for different things.

West for when I feel like playing online shooters and real time strategy games.

East for platformers, turn based strategy, rpg, action, fighting, and story based games in general.

I feel they excel in their own areas.
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Old 2010-05-07, 22:16   Link #65
HayashiTakara
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Well gotta take into account as to what the dominate genres are created in each hemisphere. Western games are generally Sports and First Person Shooters. Games that are generally pick up and play for short spurts, these are the top sellers because they appeal to the casual market kinda make me shudder when Madden games are the best selling games in the U.S. Eastern games are mostly RPGs and the like, generally games that require you sitting in front of the T.V. for long periods of time.

There's also different approaches. Western games stories and characters are very "hollywood". Where development of plot and character are more like watching a movie. Where eastern games take the "manga" approach, where character focus is pretty heavy and takes things in a more episodic manner. Of course there are exceptions to both but this is just generalizing.
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Old 2010-05-07, 23:07   Link #66
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I get the feeling that Japanese players generally like to play games alone, while others like to play together, including the MMO giant that is South Korea.

This is a very broad generalization, so bear with me here.

The thing is, sports game, MMO, FPS, RTS and generally other games that are more multi-player based are thriving in the so called "Western" markets. Japan, on the other hand, seems to like the local flavors of JRPG's and such. Japan is a rather small force in World Cyber Games, since, well, the games are not single players. This is not to say that Japanese people are not good gamers, as the most extreme examples of gaming have originated from Japan e.g. insane difficulties and challenges.
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Old 2010-05-08, 02:00   Link #67
Demongod86
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JRPGs >> American RPGs for storytelling anytime.

That said, Starcraft/Warcraft Universes (before the train wreck called WoW) were second to none on their own merit.
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Old 2010-05-08, 02:33   Link #68
Sheba
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I will take tabletop RPGs' freedom and sandbox approach over JRPGs anytime.
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Old 2010-05-08, 02:49   Link #69
Arbitres
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Eastern games tend to be about interaction and replayability, which is right up my alley -- I want my money's worth, after all. Interactive scenes and the such tend to be like that, though not always.


Western games are usually into graphic and expansion designing. CRPGs are a off branch of this 'expansion' we've seen, and it's a very popular genre because of how it's implemented on choice. JRPGs also have this 'choice base' as well.


Though I'm all for shooters, too. Which the western games have aplenty. There is just something about getting a sniper rifle, looking through the scope... and pulling off that perfect headshot.


On another note, racing is something I can't do. I use to love it, but grew out of it.


Quote:
Bayonetta is more of a strip tease of a game
Original in the sense, though I would have preferred if they didn't go with the nymph approach and make a more respectable female lead... Someone that wasn't wearing black tights.... Brrrr >_<
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Old 2010-05-08, 03:34   Link #70
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Being a big platforming game fan, I guess nowadays more of my likes when it comes down to it are from the east. Considering the only really good platformers now come from the big N and SEGA.

Out of western games I've really only played racing, FPS and some action games. Not much else.

Eastern games are mostly composed of a lot of genres I don't paticularily enjoy. Like tactical RPG's and fighting games. (Though I have exceptions.)

So yeah, I'm gonna have to say I'm an eastern gamer despite this.
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Old 2010-05-08, 05:55   Link #71
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Ι heard that far eastern people get photo-epilepsy far easier than westerners and thus avoid playing games with lots of motion. Plus they have no qualms about static pictures. Thus the eastern games orient more on story and characters than action or motion.
Latest attempt to brake the formula: FFXIII
Yuck! Better luck next time.
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Old 2010-05-08, 06:25   Link #72
onyhow
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I think it's mostly culture based thing...

Japanese, I think they are liked being lead more (conformism?), thus feels not too comfortable with a big open world with barely any leads, thus explain the lack of games that are more wide-open sandbox and the type's unpopularity, which include Metroid...there might be the fact that because of that culture, competition might not be as much as in the West, so not that much multiplayer games...

Well, that, and that they prefer to focus on story, crafting an intricate story with massive character interaction, expecting players to feel for the character...

The West are being a bit more rebellious (in US at least, considering how much the people are being distrustful of the government...), probably why the open-world games are more popular (that, and that I think it's more on player immersion...)...and then there's more competition streak in the West, thus the multiplayer aspect being important, but then it's also tied to the platform roots...

There's another thing about Japan not considering PC to be a viable gaming platform, but since consoles have limited input (gamepads don't have many buttons, right?) they tend to focus on games that can be played with those limited input, thus focus more on genres like RPGs, which doesn't have that much input...

The West, though, consider PC to be viable gaming platform, thus are able to utilize keyboard's more input to create more complex games which would normally be unplayable in console...and since older consoles don't have that much in the way of online gaming, so the West like more online games, since PC has this capability...

If we look at games, the genre of games that you can barely find in Japan are most likely the ones that would be suited to play on PC more, like simulation games (space, flight, racing, etc...), RTS (only start to be viable on console after EA successfully port Battle for Middle-Earth 2 into X360...), 4x, FPS (okay, not quite, but with exception of Goldeneye 007, did anyone think that FPS would be viable to play in consoles before Halo coming out?), RPG with complex button inputs (like roguelikes...though probably not nowadays...)...also, Japanese fixation on story means that they are less likely to produce games with good gameplay but low low story...(more likely to have both...)

This does not mean I'm criticizing the Japanese, though, since their focus on few genres does produce amazing games, it's just that, because they're more focused, they're less game genre than in the West...

About the graphics thing, I think it's still tied to the platform preference...since the West are into PC, and PC hardwares are constantly changing unlike consoles, they tend to try to make all those graphics to use the full power of the new hardwares avaliable...

If anyone thinks I have wrong information regarding culture or other stuff, feel free to correct me, since I'm Thai...so I'm outside of both cultures...
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Old 2010-05-08, 10:12   Link #73
WanderingKnight
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sup

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_role-playing_games/
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Old 2010-05-08, 10:34   Link #74
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I know a lot of jRPG fans who denied that article and gave me shifty eyes when I showed them this article after they basically asked me, "Why would you fight with pen, paper and dice rolls?"

What can I say? I told them over and over that as long they have not tasted what it is to have our characters, with their stories, their successes and their failures, they will never understand.

Also
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Old 2010-05-08, 10:59   Link #75
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I get it that this guy likes Deus Ex (who doesn't?). I also think he has a point about RPG games being not really roleplaying games, especially them JRPGs (though their saving grace that he refused to mention is that a number of them do tell fun stories with attractive characters, and though that doesn't mean they're RPGs as he understands it, that does mean they're fun to play...except for the shitty grinding). But I think he vastly, ridiculously overestimate the average human gamemaster's ability to really allows roleplaying to be conducted. Sure, sure, human AI -- but come on.

Frankly, your average livingroom gamemaster is no bard, no talented storyteller who can capture the limits of human imagination and let it loose, able craft some sort of modern myth that recurs through time like a chain-smoking, trenchcoat-wearing Homer. No, actually, given how the mechanics work in other mediums -- movies, books, etc. -- the few maestros expand our horizons further than any random wannabe bard on the street can hope to do. A single One Hundred Years of Solitude is sufficient to inspire the imagination of millions, change the whole trajectory of world literature, and allow a massive range of interpretations in itself. A single well-written, well-directed CRPG can be just as good to those who seek to roleplay. Its other limitations are essentially trivial in this aspect.

Because you see, a painter works with a limited canvas. Not even Van Gogh can make a beauty out of an infinite blank space. A CRPG's job is not to allow us an infinite blank space to tell a story in; it draws us in with its story then allow us to roleplay its role: be an amnesiac zombie, say, or an unlucky guy off the street who gets told he's the only one who can stop a raging horde of Tolkienesque orcish barbarians ("darkspawn"). Then we are let go to do our thing, while the story guides us here and there -- which is fine. We're actors with a script, not pantomiming on the corner of Fourteenth Street, NYC. And any actor will tell you: yes, dammit, acting is roleplay.

P.S. He loves Deus Ex for its nonlinear plot and only gives a grudging mild "oh yeah, it sort of does that to" to Planescape? The hell bro?

P.P.S. It's also interesting how he doesn't mention the Elder Scrolls series, which to me are failed examples of the steps RPG makers are trying to make towards what he too wants to achieve. Understandable in a sense -- the devs of Oblivion claimed they abandoned their much-hyped real time AI system because of technical limitations -- bad game design in another. Bioware just sticks to telling good stories while slowly pushing the limits of nonlinearity.
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Old 2010-05-08, 11:23   Link #76
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I think you're reading a little bit too much into what he says about CRPGs when his focus is on JRPGs. He actually gives CRPGs way more credit for what they're trying to do:

Quote:
And there was never a question of these games evolving to overcome their humble origins, as happened in the West. Western CRPGs have kept evolving because there has always existed consciousness of a direction towards which to evolve; JRPGs, meanwhile, have been going round in circles ever since their inception -- Fallout is worlds away from Akalabeth; not so Lost Odyssey from Final Fantasy.
PS: I think the quality of the dungeon master shouldn't be a matter of question here--it's whether the game allows it or not. I've had good DMs and bad DMs, but it's all part of the experience.

PPS: He's very right in the fact that stats must be hidden. I've stopped playing D&D and moved onto other tabletop RPGs because D&D is so fucking number heavy. It's annoying as hell and computers give us the chance to get rid of it.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2010-05-08 at 11:33.
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Old 2010-05-08, 11:23   Link #77
Demongod86
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That insomnia article was stupid. It completely missed the point of a JRPG.

Sure, the plot is linear. So are the plots in books. You read books from front to back, don't you?

Anyone remember those "non-linear" books? Those "if you say yes, flip to page 100, if you say no, flip to page 150"?

They SUCKED.

I'd rather have a good linear plot than a bunch of bad non-linear ones.

As for why FFXII was bad: the plot was horrid. Started off strong, but then your party went to a bunch of random places to fight a bunch of statues and giant space fleas from nowhere most of the time, very rarely interacting with other characters. Not to mention that you needed to do so many hunts just to equip characters, and the license board was BS. You have researched breathing indeed.
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Old 2010-05-08, 11:35   Link #78
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
That insomnia article was stupid. It completely missed the point of a JRPG.

Sure, the plot is linear. So are the plots in books. You read books from front to back, don't you?

Anyone remember those "non-linear" books? Those "if you say yes, flip to page 100, if you say no, flip to page 150"?

They SUCKED.

I'd rather have a good linear plot than a bunch of bad non-linear ones.

As for why FFXII was bad: the plot was horrid. Started off strong, but then your party went to a bunch of random places to fight a bunch of statues and giant space fleas from nowhere most of the time, very rarely interacting with other characters. Not to mention that you needed to do so many hunts just to equip characters, and the license board was BS. You have researched breathing indeed.
So true, so true lol

Not all are "linear" though, some JRPGs have it where relationships with your main character can change events in the game and ending. Which I always love and seek for in a RPG.
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Old 2010-05-08, 11:36   Link #79
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I think you're reading a little bit too much into what he says about CRPGs when his focus is on JRPGs. He actually gives CRPGs way more credit for what they're trying to do
I suppose so since I don't actually disagree with him on what JRPGs are (though I, unlike him, like them for what they really are, games that tell stories...with the exception of the shitty grinding!). It's just that he seems to believe there's some sort of past golden age whereby wise sages in your neighborhood DnD association -- okay, I'm exaggerating a bit here -- commandeered session after session of roleplaying heaven where human ingenuity was pushed to the limit.

And that, I seriously doubt, actually happened. It was probably more like a bunch of guys drunk on pizza telling clichéd stories about the Evil Lord of Evil and how the local Paladin guy beat the shit out of him. And gazebos. And ripoffs of the LotR plot.
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Old 2010-05-08, 11:36   Link #80
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Quote:
That insomnia article was stupid. It completely missed the point of a JRPG.

Sure, the plot is linear. So are the plots in books. You read books from front to back, don't you?

Anyone remember those "non-linear" books? Those "if you say yes, flip to page 100, if you say no, flip to page 150"?
And you completely missed the point of the article (not surprising, if I might say so myself).

Quote:
I'd rather have a good linear plot than a bunch of bad non-linear ones.
So what? You can play your linear games all you like. The only thing it's trying to explain is that you can't call them "RPGs" because they're extremely far from what the word actually means.

Quote:
And that, I seriously doubt, actually happened. It was probably more like a bunch of guys drunk on pizza telling clichéd stories about the Evil Lord of Evil and how the local Paladin guy beat the shit out of him. And gazebos. And ripoffs of the LotR plot.
Yeah, maybe he goes off a bit too much on the grandeur of the adventures--most of my adventures were limited to wacky humor... but the point is that the game allows it. It allowed me and my friends to hold bizarre games with the weirdest of plots, laughing all over the place. It also allows the geeky neckbeards to make LotR clones.
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