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View Poll Results: True Tears - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 106 40.93%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 63 24.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 12.36%
7 out of 10 : Good 16 6.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 14 5.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 2.32%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.39%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-31, 07:57   Link #241
Sorrow-K
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I didn't laugh, but I certainly thought the scene missed its mark. It was just another case of Shinichiro being so confused and conflicted and me just looking and him and saying "you're so confused and conflicted".
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Old 2008-03-31, 07:58   Link #242
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it actually made me cringle.
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Old 2008-03-31, 08:14   Link #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
I didn't laugh, but I certainly thought the scene missed its mark. It was just another case of Shinichiro being so confused and conflicted and me just looking and him and saying "you're so confused and conflicted".
Oh it definitely missed its mark i know what they were trying to do it just had no effect, The best scenes for me were Shins mom and Hiromi especially when shes says to Hiromi "its hard isnt it? the waiting" because that showed me Shins approves and knows how she feels. The short Ai and Nobuse scene was just cool, showing how well they are getting along without Shin and the scene right before Shins little break down when he was with Noe. Also, Hiromi and Shins finally scene was pretty good too.
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Old 2008-03-31, 08:20   Link #244
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did you see something...
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-31, 08:25   Link #245
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My rating for this episode has just gone up by one.
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Old 2008-03-31, 08:26   Link #246
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Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
did you see something...
Spoiler:
i m at a loss of words... in your defence tomoyo told the viewers there was something to look forward to... if there had been no mention that there was some special hidden service i would have been worried about your... err... ability to notice such details...
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Old 2008-03-31, 09:16   Link #247
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Going back to this from 11 hours ago, but with 2 pages having passed it seems like an eternity. But I'll try to make it brief this time since the rest of the forum has moved on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
As for the other set of interpretations, from what I have said before what the animators should've done, I knew what they were trying to say (preaching to the choir here guys ;p). That despite Noe still has a small piece of his heart, Shin still chose Hiromi in the end.

Telling the girl in question that you'll stay with her forever, however, does not imply at all at the above, well at least where I come from. While not exactly a 'proposal' (I only used that term since it's much shorter), those words to me still basically says 'I'll stay with you forever because you're the only girl for me', and not 'I'll stay with you forever even when I still have feelings for another girl', with the italicized parts being the implied words.
It was incredibly important that Noe no longer had a piece of his heart, and that he make it crystal clear to Hiromi that she was the only girl for him. That's the point! The power of the preceeding scene was precisely that: him abandoning his feelings for Noe. Him saying that he still has feelings for another girl would have ruined everything that farewell scene was trying to portray, and the trust Noe asked Shinichirou to have in her. It would have meant that there was still an "opening" and that's what caused the entire misunderstanding between Shinichirou's parents in the past.

So, in my opinion, the words the writers chose here were essential, and if they had changed it to what you think they meant to imply, it would have ruined the entire ending. Sorry for being blunt, but I felt that the point of the scene was: no more doubts, no more regrets. That's why his farewell to Noe was so painful, and why the timing was critical. So this is why I wasn't "preaching to the choir" on this one; I disagree with your suggestion for storytelling reasons (though I can certiainly respect that that's your opinion).
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Old 2008-03-31, 09:30   Link #248
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@ ani_d

I agree with all of that; I just want to add that my interpretation was similar in that I think by the end Shin finally sees Noe representing Jibeta instead of putting himself in Jibeta's shoes in some sense in the previous eps.

Also, more importantly perhaps, that Raigomaru flies first on Jibeta's feelings, but then is able to give back to Jibeta by becoming his wings in some sense; much like how Noe was the reason Shin was able to fly, and at the end, she flies (walks) with Shin's feelings for her.

I think they're able to each be the reason that the other one manages to fly in the Raigomaru/Jibeta and Shin/Noe sense even though it's not really spelled out clearly what the interpretation of the former should be.

@ Sinestra, Sorrow-K

I cringed at first as well, perhaps because of how loud Shin was and how perhaps broken down he was for the first time in the series. Upon rewatching it though with a much more straight face, I think the artistic value in the scene does shine through in a way, but it was definitely hard for me to take it at face value at first.

Again, I think it comes back to the fact that a significant number of people trying to stay objective totally missed Shin's feelings for Noe until the very end. People who really argued that Shin had feelings for Noe at the end of 12 probably got a lot more from that scene than someone like me who missed a lot of that and didn't get it till I was presented with episode 13. I had to rewatch that episode and the previous ones in that kind of context to feel what the writers were trying to present to us in that scene.

As an example, it was far more easy for me to accept Jun saying with a straight face to Hiromi that he had "never had any feelings for her, not even a little" because I was arguing that around episode 9 or 10, whereas there were still some people arguing that maybe he had something for her.

I just think that everyone picked up at least a few of the pieces but very few picked up all of them before the final episode. Then again I think that's why the people who've been deconstructing and discussing this anime over the past few months will get a lot more out of it than the average viewer watching on their own who might not pick it all up on their own.

@ Claymore

Claymore, I have no idea how hard you had to have worked to find that.

Even though Tomoyo does say "They're visible"; still >_>

Last edited by vio5555; 2008-03-31 at 09:45.
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Old 2008-03-31, 09:58   Link #249
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Originally Posted by vio5555 View Post
I agree with all of that; I just want to add that my interpretation was similar in that I think by the end Shin finally sees Noe representing Jibeta instead of putting himself in Jibeta's shoes in some sense in the previous eps.

Also, more importantly perhaps, that Raigomaru flies first on Jibeta's feelings, but then is able to give back to Jibeta by becoming his wings in some sense; much like how Noe was the reason Shin was able to fly, and at the end, she flies (walks) with Shin's feelings for her.

I think they're able to each be the reason that the other one manages to fly in the Raigomaru/Jibeta and Shin/Noe sense even though it's not really spelled out clearly what the interpretation of the former should be.
In the end, who represents who doesn't really matter all that much. One chicken chose to fly; one chicken chose to stay on the ground and look proudly ahead. The message that Noe understood from the story -- the message Shinichirou was trying to tell her -- was clear (based on the farewell scene): he believes that she can fly, if she chooses to. The entire scene hinged on that metaphor, and Shinichirou confirmed it. So... I'm not sure if either chicken was strictly-speaking one character or the other, but there were aspects of each of the two characters that applied to both of them. It's the moral of the story that's important (and even Noe herself alluded to that fact with the realization that she was missing the last page -- though that too was laced with a double or triple-meaning).


And for what it's worth... I strongly dislike the "wavers" translation. It implies that she was leading him astray, but I don't think that was what they were trying to imply. The word is more like "shakes" or "quakes", and I think that's more akin to one's heart "aching" (think about the times when you've cried, and the feeling in your heart at the time). Saying "when your heart aches" is also a more expected answer to Shinichirou's "when do you cry?" question to his father (while still being important and profound).

Shinichirou did have feelings for Noe -- she was an inspiration to him, and what enabled him to find his purpose and determination in life, and he also saw that she was in much pain though he never understood why (see the scene with Jun). He worried about her. His heart ached when he was with her because of all this, but "wavers" implies too strongly that it was lessening his feelings for Hiromi, which the show (it seems to me) has never otherwise suggested. I think the feelings Shinichirou had for Noe were strong and powerful, but different than those he had for Hiromi. But, him being torn between these two seperate sets of emotions was causing pain for both girls; he couldn't have both. This is why he could still rightfully say that Hiromi was the one he's always loved, but Noe was the one who inspired him to draw, dance, and "fly". This also ties into why I felt the confession scene after the farewell made sense. Perhaps all this is just arguing semantics, but it seems to me that the distinction is important, again in that small, subtle way that defines a lot of the show's message.

Of course, that's all just my own interpretation/opinion, and everyone's free to disagree. Whatever works for you.
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:00   Link #250
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lol @ the hidden fanservice!
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:14   Link #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Going back to this from 11 hours ago, but with 2 pages having passed it seems like an eternity. But I'll try to make it brief this time since the rest of the forum has moved on...It was incredibly important that Noe no longer had a piece of his heart, and that he make it crystal clear to Hiromi that she was the only girl for him. That's the point! The power of the preceeding scene was precisely that: him abandoning his feelings for Noe. Him saying that he still has feelings for another girl would have ruined everything that farewell scene was trying to portray, and the trust Noe asked Shinichirou to have in her. It would have meant that there was still an "opening" and that's what caused the entire misunderstanding between Shinichirou's parents in the past.

So, in my opinion, the words the writers chose here were essential, and if they had changed it to what you think they meant to imply, it would have ruined the entire ending. Sorry for being blunt, but I felt that the point of the scene was: no more doubts, no more regrets. That's why his farewell to Noe was so painful, and why the timing was critical. So this is why I wasn't "preaching to the choir" on this one; I disagree with your suggestion for storytelling reasons (though I can certiainly respect that that's your opinion).
I will have to disagree here. Everything was right, except storytelling--how the scene was presented, and that ruined everything. To me, the scene completely missed its mark. I agree with relentlessflame that it was obvious at that point Shin was trying to sever his feelings and that he was not confused. However, it wasn't emotional at all, and I seriously cringe at its presentation.

For an anime like this, the "fly" and "true tears" portion should have been better integrated into its romance aspect, and that is all I have to say. The plot itself was unnecessarily confusing, and the ending wasn't as powerful as I would have liked. It was sort of like True Tears tried to copy Air/Haibane Renmei and failed, because they laid out the backbone for some powerful symbolic theme but everyone figured out what was going to happen by episodes 11-12 and its romance ended the story. For me True Tears ended a long time ago, and it doesn't really matter which girl wins after that. True Tears completely missed the mark, but it was wonderful romance-wise.
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:30   Link #252
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I will have to disagree here. Everything was right, except storytelling--how the scene was presented, and that ruined everything. To me, the scene completely missed its mark. I agree with relentlessflame that it was obvious at that point Shin was trying to sever his feelings and that he was not confused. However, it wasn't emotional at all, and I seriously cringe at its presentation.

For an anime like this, the "fly" and "true tears" portion should have been better integrated into its romance aspect, and that is all I have to say. The plot itself was unnecessarily confusing, and the ending wasn't as powerful as I would have liked. It was sort of like True Tears tried to copy Air/Haibane Renmei and failed, because they laid out the backbone for some powerful symbolic theme but everyone figured out what was going to happen by episodes 11-12 and its romance ended the story. For me True Tears ended a long time ago, and it doesn't really matter which girl wins after that. True Tears completely missed the mark, but it was wonderful romance-wise.
Maybe I just don't know where you're going with this, but could you clarify on the "fly" and "true tear" parts not being better integrated into the romance?

They were as integral to the romance as possible from all three characters' standpoints in my opinion.

Shin flew because Noe inspired him to fly and that was the basis for why she entered into his heart, just as he cried his true tears as he had to watch her fly away from him with his feelings. Hiromi's true tears came at the end of 10 and 13 as Shin and her's feelings are finally reaching each other.

That takes care of both Shin and Noe flying as serving as the basis for the romantic aspect of their relationship as well as integrating Shin and Hiromi's true tears into the romance. Noe's true tears come at the end of 13 as she finally is able to accept everything and what it means to her.

I see everything as coming back to what Shin says at the end about how "if you think about the person truly dear to you, the tears will flow naturally", but in a romantic sense both the flying and true tears are well integrated with this approach in mind.
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:43   Link #253
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
And for what it's worth... I strongly dislike the "wavers" translation. It implies that she was leading him astray, but I don't think that was what they were trying to imply. The word is more like "shakes" or "quakes", and I think that's more akin to one's heart "aching" (think about the times when you've cried, and the feeling in your heart at the time). Saying "when your heart aches" is also a more expected answer to Shinichirou's "when do you cry?" question to his father (while still being important and profound).
I agree with this. I'm not going to go out and say it's right or wrong, because I don't really know, and there's no mention in any of the four dictionaries I've checked. Yet to me, personally, "wavers" feels like the wrong word to use, because in my mind it implies that Shin would hesitate, and not know what to pick.

A Japanese friend explained "kokoro ga furueru" as "when you are moved by strong emotions", which is different. And as you've already said, Shin's words are a repetition of his father's reply to the question "What makes you cry?" When did hesitation make someone cry? I'm more of the mindset that Shin is trying to describe how Noe sets his world on fire, that she makes life more interesting and exciting, but he's still in love with Hiromi, and must go with that.

It's also significant that Shin goes out of his way to tell Hiromi, before leaving to speak to Noe about the book, that he'll have dinner with her, and that she should wait for him. At this point he's already made up his mind, and there is only one girl he wants to spend his life with. People seem confused as to where his emotions are coming from, but if you look at the show as a whole, it was always apparent that he loved her - just consider the drawings of her crying. He cares deeply for this girl and wants to comfort her, despite her (recent) cold attitude.

No one's mentioned the insanely powerful scene with the hot coffee either. From the moment Hiromi invites him over at school, through the way she urges him on in the staircase, and sits down to take his hands along with the cup, and sips the coffee, there's a roaring sexual tension. Then she goes and says "ii yo", which most likely should be interpreted as consent for having sex. She's basically so anxious to keep Shin with her that she'll throw herself at him. Luckily Shin sees through her madness and stops it, resulting in Hiromi feeling ashamed and sending him off, because it's not like her to be so ... nasty. The situation with Shin's mother has changed her, and all of Shin's affection is based on a lifetime of knowing and loving her before she moves into his home.

Er, I'm spending way too much time complaining about other people's thoughts on anime.

PS. "Kokoro ga furueru" is also used in the Zero no Tsukaima novels to explain the power level of Saito's rune. His sword Delf explains that Saito will be strongest when his heart trembles (or whatever), and weaker when he's hesitant and worried. Being in love is implied as making him more powerful.

Edit: I know what the words mean individually, it's the symbolic meaning of the combination that's hard to determine.
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Last edited by apr; 2008-03-31 at 12:48.
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:53   Link #254
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Just as a note, kokoro is heart, and furueru is shaking/trembling/shivering.
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Old 2008-03-31, 10:59   Link #255
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Er, I'm spending way too much time complaining about other people's thoughts on anime.
Tell me about it. The main reason I personally take the time to do this, though, is because it helps me understand and flesh out my own feelings and reactions to the show -- putting int words the things I felt instinctively when watching. With a show like this, where understanding is tied to picking up on subtle emotional clues, I think it helps you appreciate the show that much more.

Anyway, I totally agree with your comments. As I think about it, I think your take on the "hot coffee" scene is right on (I knew she was being overly forward/suggestive, hence Shinichirou's reaction, but I had underestimated to what degree), and fits in perfectly with the follow-up scene where she acknowledged that it's up to Shinichirou to make his decision now. Basically, stepping back and regaining her composure. That continued right to the end with Shinichrou's "confession", where she almost plays hard to get for a bit (even though it's pretty darn clear how she feels). There's a lot of banter going back and forth between them throughout the show -- their courtship dance was very interesting to watch, to say the least.
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Old 2008-03-31, 11:05   Link #256
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No one's mentioned the insanely powerful scene with the hot coffee either. From the moment Hiromi invites him over at school, through the way she urges him on in the staircase, and sits down to take his hands along with the cup, and sip the coffee, there's a roaring sexual tension. Then she goes and says "ii yo", which most likely should be interpreted as consent for having sex. She's basically so anxious to keep Shin with her that she'll throw herself at him. Luckily Shin sees through her madness and stops it, resulting in Hiromi feeling ashamed and sending him off, because it's not like her to be so ... nasty. The situation with Shin's mother has changed her, and all of Shin's affection is based on a lifetime of knowing and loving her before she moves into his home.

Er, I'm spending way too much time complaining about other people's thoughts on anime.
I just wanted to focus on this part since it's new and I agreed with the rest.

This is probably one of the best scene interpretations I've seen of this series and considering its importance I think you've done a valuable exercise by explaining the nuance so well.

On the last thought, we need more of this kind of commentary since the nuance is often hard to grasp for viewers who haven't been immersed in Japanese culture (like me :P), so there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2008-03-31, 11:28   Link #257
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Originally Posted by vio5555 View Post
Maybe I just don't know where you're going with this, but could you clarify on the "fly" and "true tear" parts not being better integrated into the romance?

They were as integral to the romance as possible from all three characters' standpoints in my opinion.

Shin flew because Noe inspired him to fly and that was the basis for why she entered into his heart, just as he cried his true tears as he had to watch her fly away from him with his feelings. Hiromi's true tears came at the end of 10 and 13 as Shin and her's feelings are finally reaching each other.

That takes care of both Shin and Noe flying as serving as the basis for the romantic aspect of their relationship as well as integrating Shin and Hiromi's true tears into the romance. Noe's true tears come at the end of 13 as she finally is able to accept everything and what it means to her.

I see everything as coming back to what Shin says at the end about how "if you think about the person truly dear to you, the tears will flow naturally", but in a romantic sense both the flying and true tears are well integrated with this approach in mind.
Well that's just a difference in opinions then. My problem is everything you said I already knew was going to happen since episode 11. As I see it, Noe already accepted everything and will show her true tears later on, and Hiromi also. The fly/true tears thing ended at episode 11. What happens afterwards is just romance, and the series no longer builds on its symbolisms but rather uses it. All episodes 12 and 13 did was twisting the romance plot a bit just to create some extra drama. I agree with you that in a sense, they are well integrated, but they are not developed at the same time nor ended at the same time. This goes back to my original point, which was storytelling. Every time the anime switches back and forth between symbolism and romance, I feel a definite switch, a rough transition. If the storytelling was better, then everything is well.
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Old 2008-03-31, 11:59   Link #258
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Originally Posted by cebukitty View Post
No one can deny that Shin and Noe have a special relationship. Their souls were calling to each other even before they met. Remember Shin had a vision of Noe even before he met her, and that first meeting they had with Shin gazing awestruck at Noe glowing golden from the sunlight behind her -- simply beautiful But again, I guess not all soulmates become lovers.
Thank you for that observation. It helps me find a little reconciliation in seeing a happy ending for Noe. It was her special relationship with Shin that ultimately led to her tears, and I think that is something that would have a profound affect on the rest of her life and how she related to the world. To me, this was ultimately Noe's story. Her tears, flying in the breeze, is the grand finale.

I thought the scene of Shin crying, singing the cockroach song, was very poignant. It helped me feel how important she really was to him and that even the silly things about her, like her song, were so deeply meaningful to him. And the way she turned and waved to him in acknowledgment showed just how strong she really was.
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Old 2008-03-31, 12:33   Link #259
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Well, continuing on the theme of spending way too much time analyzing others' thoughts on anime...

It occurs to me that, to some extent, both one's reaction to the ending and indeed one choice in the Noe vs. Hiromi Steel Cage Death Match 2008 (PPV, $29.95) depend on whether or not one is a romantic. Now, I don't mean to say that Shin/Noe is unromantic - that's not the point. But in the reactions to the ending and the choice of favorite girl, you see echoes of the arguments in the age-old romanticism (idealism)/rationalism argument.

Hiromi - Here. you really have to believe in the ideal of romanticism - love at first sight, childhood romances that can actually survive, etc (counter: childhood romances never work, Shin will get tired of her, etc.). Chivalry (the sandal). The opposition argues that we didn't see all of the so-called affection between Shin'ichiro and Hiromi, but the romantics among us point out that the signs were there, subtly, all throughout the series - in words with hidden meanings, gestures, memories, facial expressions. The Hiromi model requires the belief that there's one person you're meant to be with and the heart recognizes it, even when the mind sometimes doesn't.

Noe - Definitely the rationalist's choice. She's so cute! She was the one who was Shin's muse, who allowed him to find his true self. They seemed to have so much fun together. She's the logical choice in so many ways - true love be damned, you can think you love someone and actually find out you love someone else more. She actually showed affection for Shin in a much more obvious and consistent matter. It was her face he saw when he was mugiha dancing, so that proves she's the one on his mind when the chips are down.

In short, Hiromi requires a leap of faith - acceptance of the impractical and unlikely, in the hope for the ideal. If you think that's BS you want to smash Shin's face in for choosing her. If you're a true romantic at heart, it makes you love them both all the more and want it to work out.
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Old 2008-03-31, 12:42   Link #260
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Well said...

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Originally Posted by apr View Post
No one's mentioned the insanely powerful scene with the hot coffee either. From the moment Hiromi invites him over at school, through the way she urges him on in the staircase, and sits down to take his hands along with the cup, and sip the coffee, there's a roaring sexual tension. Then she goes and says "ii yo", which most likely should be interpreted as consent for having sex. She's basically so anxious to keep Shin with her that she'll throw herself at him. Luckily Shin sees through her madness and stops it, resulting in Hiromi feeling ashamed and sending him off, because it's not like her to be so ... nasty. The situation with Shin's mother has changed her, and all of Shin's affection is based on a lifetime of knowing and loving her before she moves into his home.

I'm glad you brought it up. This is one of my favorite scenes in the series, and a defining moment for Hiromi's character. It really is the last and ultimate obstacle she faced in becoming a truly eligible companion for Shin. The way she dealt with the realization of her inappropriate behavior, and her subsequent resolve speaks volumes.
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