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View Poll Results: True Tears - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 106 40.93%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 63 24.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 12.36%
7 out of 10 : Good 16 6.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 14 5.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 2.32%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.39%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-04-02, 21:24   Link #301
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
This is just like all the people that give this episode a one score. Only way we could be able to argue your opinion is if Shin broke the fourth wall and told us "People, I loved Noe" or "Yeah you are right I only liked her as a good friend". The fact is that the Major consensus is that He did loved Noe but he loved Hiromi more and chose her.
If something is a consensus, it doesn't always mean its correct. I have a good eye for such subtleties in stories and the signs of what I am saying are all there.

Noe, in a way, gifted Shinichiro with Hiromi because if it wasn't for Noe, Shinchiro would never have expressed his love. He knew Noe loved him and sacrificed to let him fly. Noe knew that it was Hiromi that was in his heart and he couldn't fly if he stayed by her side.

The entire story from beginning to end was about how his relationship with Noe brought Hiromi and Shinichiro closer together. If I had the time I would go through and point out each individual sign that points to this. I think more will see it if they keep this in mind and watch the series again.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-04-02 at 22:25.
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Old 2008-04-02, 22:34   Link #302
Guardian Enzo
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Another interesting spin on this might be to take the Platonic angle and view the Shin/Hiromi/Noe triangle through the ancient Greek definitions of love. That's a much-debated topic of study and subject to interpretation, but Plato (further developed by his student, Aristotle) basically said there were three types of love - Eros, Philial, And Agape. Eros is pretty straightforward - in blunt terms, horniness. It's thrilling and all, but not enough on it's own to sustain any lasting relationship.

Through this lens I might argue that Shin felt Philial love for Noe. This is a kind of brotherhood (in the broad sense, not the gender sense) - Aristotle refined it to the love of a true friend. This is someone whose company you enjoy, someone who makes you at ease when they're around. Someone you want to be with, irrespective of any erotic feelings or issues of gender.

Finally, there's Agape love - Plato called it "ideal" love". Interpretations vary, but all agree this is the highest and purest form of all love - it transcends Eros and even Philial. The gist of it is, this is the act of totally and selflessly dedicating yourself to the welfare of another person. In other words, unconditionally putting their needs above your own, even if they do things that displease you. It can be for lovers or parents or children or God, if you swing that way - it can include Eros love and Philial love but surpasses them in every way. In short, storybook, truly idealistic romantic (not erotic, though that can be a part of it) love could only fall under this defintion of the three.

Viewed in the context of his actions in the series, I think Shin feels this way about Hiromi and only Hiromi. It doesn't mean he didn't love Noe - not at all, he did come to love her, but on a different level than he loved Hiromi. It's a different way to look at it, anyway.
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Old 2008-04-02, 23:53   Link #303
harmonious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Through this lens I might argue that Shin felt Philial love for Noe. This is a kind of brotherhood (in the broad sense, not the gender sense) - Aristotle refined it to the love of a true friend. This is someone whose company you enjoy, someone who makes you at ease when they're around. Someone you want to be with, irrespective of any erotic feelings or issues of gender.

Finally, there's Agape love - Plato called it "ideal" love". Interpretations vary, but all agree this is the highest and purest form of all love - it transcends Eros and even Philial. The gist of it is, this is the act of totally and selflessly dedicating yourself to the welfare of another person. In other words, unconditionally putting their needs above your own, even if they do things that displease you. It can be for lovers or parents or children or God, if you swing that way - it can include Eros love and Philial love but surpasses them in every way. In short, storybook, truly idealistic romantic (not erotic, though that can be a part of it) love could only fall under this defintion of the three.

Viewed in the context of his actions in the series, I think Shin feels this way about Hiromi and only Hiromi. It doesn't mean he didn't love Noe - not at all, he did come to love her, but on a different level than he loved Hiromi. It's a different way to look at it, anyway.
Frankly, I think you put it perfectly. Most people will never know true friendship and simply believe that the acquaintances they know is what friendship is about. He made it through the hardships that he faced with Noe's help and their bonds formed. Noe truly loved him, but knew it was Hiromi that was in his heart and their bonds were sacrificed for it. Shin sacrificed the bond of true friendship he had with Noe for Hiromi, but Noe made the greater sacrifice of her true love for him so he could fly (straight to Hiromi).

I really don't think he was crying for himself, but for Noe and his heart wavered because of what he had to do. In a sense, he gave her his tears. Noe encouraged him to fly and all he had to offer in return was heartache.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-04-03 at 00:05.
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Old 2008-04-03, 02:54   Link #304
b0nyb0y
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I guess I'll ride with the momentum while it lasts, since it seems lots of people have moved on from TT already. Glad that there are still discussions going on even after the series finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
I pretty much on the same page with you up to here. You put it all together so nicely. Yes. Shin finally figured it out himself and was able to fly. This is also where Shin realized that the girl who believed in him, when noone dared to reach out, was Noe. In other words, he was able to draw because of Noe's eyes who believed he CAN fly.
To be honest, after reading your comment, I have to say that we're on a totally different page starting from the very first paragraph you quoted me. And even if it happens to be on the same page number, it'll probably be on a different book altogether...

The thing is, it's not like Shin didn't know how to draw (or couldn't draw well) before meeting Noe. During the dance, when Shin mentioned about wanting to draw, he was specifically talking about the story of "Raigomaru and Jibeta". He was inspired to draw about flying (and tried to fly himself) because Noe believed that he could fly. And, frankly, I don't think it can be seen otherwise. There's a limit to how much you can generalize with that statement, as it wouldn't make sense for Noe to be the reason for Shin to draw about wanting to wipe Hiromi's tears.

Indeed, as outlined in my previous comment, there's no doubt that Noe helped Shin transformed his way of drawing as a whole (and not just the story of Raigomaru and Jibeta), as he mentioned to Noe herself in ep. 13. But even then, I still insist that Noe's not the ultimate meaning for Shin to draw. Otherwise, he would have lost the will to draw after breaking up with her, which isn't the case at all. At the end of the final ep., we still saw him continuing to draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
"You wanted to fly. Not for the sake of others, not for glory, not for setting the record. Raigomaru took flight."

I saw those as Noe's real meaning of flying for Shin. She wanted Shin to be always looking at the sky, and he did just that. He was having all these thoughts when the girl whom he was supposed to be looking at was his 'love' Hiromi. Instead of Hiromi, Shin looked at Noe. If that is not a sign of his feelings being swayed, then I don't know what is.
Again, I have to disagree on that...

First, I have to say that Noe isn't the reason for him to fly. Because if it's the case, then Raigomaru would have flown since its first try. The reason why it found excuse not to fly so many times was because Shin hesitated. So if you agreed with the first paragraph you quoted me, you can't deny it. Besides, if Noe is 'the' meaning for him to fly, it means he will lose his wings once he lost Noe, which could hardly be called an improvement. I believe what's more appropriate to say is that Noe helped him found his own wings.

Second, if Noe is really the reason for him to fly, there would be a clear sign of hesitation after he looked at Noe while dancing. I believe if you take a look at ep. 12 again, you'll see that after he has done talking to himself inside the cupboard, he showed no sign of hesitation ever since. Even in the scene where we saw the reflection of her face in his eyes, you'll see that it's not the eyes of the person who hesitated, swayed or confused. It was more of a determination, confidence, one-pointedness. And, to me, that kind of expression doesn't leave any room for half-heartedness.

IMO, if you want to see how Shin looked when hesitated, you can go back and rewatch ep. 9 & 10 when Raigomaru hesitated to fly. I'm no anime expert, but it's not hard to see the difference in Shin's expressions during those eps. and what we've seen in ep. 12. And, frankly, I would be more inclined to take THAT as a sign of hesitation or swaying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Ever since episode 1, the girl who Shin fancies is really Hiromi. The writers kept rubbing that to our faces. The HiromixShin ending can be seen by everyone--even an idiot. However, ever since the Mugiha dance, Hiromi ending suddenly didn't seem that solid anymore. It 'trembled'. Just like Shin. His 'almighty' feelings suddenly became unstable. Like I said, his confession in episode 13 made absolute sense.
Indeed, I would admit that at the time, the "Hiromi end" didn't seem so solid. But it wasn't because Shin was being indecisive or that he hesitated, but because we audiences didn't know what resolutions he just came up with. Hiromi was indeed very fragile and insecure at that point, and we audiences probably had doubts in Shin as much as her. But then, we're not talking about how Hiromi or us audiences felt. We're talking about Shin here...

BTW, for those of you who believe that Shin was lying to Hiromi to run to Noe, I urge you to look again. To me, that statement only implied that he would use the time when people were celebrating to go find Noe. I don't see how Shin really gain anything from lying to Hiromi. Besides, both Shin and Hiromi also knew the direction where he was heading, so if Shin did indeed lie and want to be firm with that move, he would have walked back into the crowd and sneaked out later without Hiromi noticing. Yet no such thing happened. He just walked straight out of the shrine, in a totally opposite direction of the crowd. And, to me, that move just says in itself that the statement wasn't intended to be a lie.

Also, I wouldn't call the talk between Shin and Noe in ep. 13 as a "confession". I mean, I definitely understand your point, but I think you're pushing it a bit too hard there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
I know I'm just reinstating what Theowne had said, but the reason why Shin "couldn't do things properly" was because of Noe. As long as Noe's in the picture, Shin couldn't commit to Hiromi. If Shin's feelings for Noe was not romantic, we wouldn't have this problem. I think Shin wasn't aware of this when he told Hiromi "he would do things properly." From what I noticed, the gripe about most Hiromi fans was that Hiromi herself wasn't enough to make Shinichiro look at only her. Well, I think Shin did the right thing for everyone when he and Noe went their seperate ways.
And I will insist that there were many areas in Shin's life that he didn't do things properly. We need to keep in mind that what matters the most in understanding the plot is Shin's own perspective, not ours'. Though it's natural for us to emphasize his relationship issue, Shin himself didn't approach it that way. Since ep. 12, it's clear that Shin was addressing these issues as a whole. That is, he tackled them all at once inside his cupboard, and revealed his resolutions on all those fronts in Raigomaru's flight. Heck, even when he spoke his heart with Noe in ep. 13, he was also addressing all three at the same time. To me, how he approached the issues speaks volumes. It implies how all issues stemmed from one root cause, as well as how he tackled those with one particular mindset without overly focusing on any one of them.

The point is that there's a central theme for the situation Shin was in: he just went with the flow so much that he let it dictated him, to the point where he lost sight of his own true feelings. If you look back at all previous episodes, you'll see how all the pieces came together and fall into place: how Shin felt that he felt he "had no choice" on each matter (be it his drawing, his dance, or his relationship), how he found his solutions by finding his real feelings, and how he acted them out in the end. And, frankly, I don't think there's any better way to explain it.

And it's worth noting, too, that the resolutions in Shin's mind was pronounced enough to change him on the outside. In fact, it was so apparent that it made the crowd impressed with the dance, made his friends reevaluated him (in ep. 13). And, more than anything, it made Noe, who saw Shin's flight, wanted to know how it feels like looking down from the sky (just listen to what she said when climbing up the tree). So, honestly, with Shin's flight being so brilliant and determined as it was, I don't even see how any actions of Shin from that point on can indicate any hesitation, any trembling or instability, or any "change of heart", for that matter. All I've seen there was totally the opposite of that.

In short, I think it's just silly for us to focus so much on relationship part that we're unable to acknowledge what Shin has truly overcome and achieved by the end of the series. Because, seriously, THAT is what made him mature so much.
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Old 2008-04-03, 05:33   Link #305
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Wow b0nyb0y. You sure had a lot to say lol I couldn't reply to all of your post since I have other things to do, but I'll try my best....


Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y View Post

To be honest, after reading your comment, I have to say that we're on a totally different page starting from the very first paragraph you quoted me. And even if it happens to be on the same page number, it'll probably be on a different book altogether...


The thing is, it's not like Shin didn't know how to draw (or couldn't draw well) before meeting Noe. During the dance, when Shin mentioned about wanting to draw, he was specifically talking about the story of "Raigomaru and Jibeta". He was inspired to draw about flying (and tried to fly himself) because Noe believed that he could fly. And, frankly, I don't think it can be seen otherwise. There's a limit to how much you can generalize with that statement, as it wouldn't make sense for Noe to be the reason for Shin to draw about wanting to wipe Hiromi's tears.
I know you said I'm on a different page from you. I'm not sure if it's my wording or what, but you just reinstated what I was trying to say. I said Shin was able to draw because Noe believed in him. And you said, "He was inspired to draw about flying (and tried to fly himself) because Noe believed that he could fly. And, frankly, I don't think it can be seen otherwise."

Isn't that what I just said?

The story started with Shin feeling discontent about his drawings. Ever since he met Noe, his imagination became very active and influenced a lot by Noe (the glass bottle, the angel, the red snow, etc etc), even before he started writing Jibeta and Raigomaru story. Or could it be that you see flying and being able to draw on a different page as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y
Indeed, as outlined in my previous comment, there's no doubt that Noe helped Shin transformed his way of drawing as a whole (and not just the story of Raigomaru and Jibeta), as he mentioned to Noe herself in ep. 13. But even then, I still insist that Noe's not the ultimate meaning for Shin to draw. Otherwise, he would have lost the will to draw after breaking up with her, which isn't the case at all. At the end of the final ep., we still saw him continuing to draw.
Shin didn't want to draw because he was afraid to face his own limitations. His drawings outlined his initial issues---his relationship with Hiromi that doesn't go anywhere, his responsibilities to his family's business, people's expectations for his dance etc. It's his inner sanctuary, and Noe's the one who gave him confidence to face that. That he's not just an ordinary chicken, he can do greater things. Noe's not a part of his initial issues, she's what made him face his issues properly. That is why he said he was able to draw again---because of her. She's on a different plane. This is what Shinichiro meant, when he said "he was able to draw because of her." That's what I want to say here as well.

Why would he lose his will to draw even if he parted with Noe? Just the fact that he was drawing, specifically about things close to the sky, suggests that Noe's influence continues to live with him.


Quote:
First, I have to say that Noe isn't the reason for him to fly. Because if it's the case, then Raigomaru would have flown since its first try. The reason why it found excuse not to fly so many times was because Shin hesitated. So if you agreed with the first paragraph you quoted me, you can't deny it. Besides, if Noe is 'the' meaning for him to fly, it means he will lose his wings once he lost Noe, which could hardly be called an improvement. I believe what's more appropriate to say is that Noe helped him found his own wings.
What is flying anyway? After watching all 13 episodes, the meaning I got was believing in oneself to face everyday life with confidence. Shin went through a lot to realize this, and again, who's the girl here who empowered Shin to 'fly'? I'm not sure why you think I meant Shin's trying to fly so he can love Noe because I never said that in my post. When I said his feelings wavered, it was because he realized that Noe's responsible why he gained all these newfound outlook in life.

Quote:
Second, if Noe is really the reason for him to fly, there would be a clear sign of hesitation after he looked at Noe while dancing. I believe if you take a look at ep. 12 again, you'll see that after he has done talking to himself inside the cupboard, he showed no sign of hesitation ever since. Even in the scene where we saw the reflection of her face in his eyes, you'll see that it's not the eyes of the person who hesitated, swayed or confused. It was more of a determination, confidence, one-pointedness. And, to me, that kind of expression doesn't leave any room for half-heartedness.
In Episode 13, the last and latest episode, Shin asked his father when does he cry? His father told him when his heart 'wavers'. It was then Shin reflected back to the Mugiha dance where, you know. I doubt that flashback was random. Anyway, I'm not going to reinstate this any longer after this post since I've been doing it an awful lot of times now lol It is what it is. If you don't want to see it that way, then so be it. ^__^


Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y
Indeed, I would admit that at the time, the "Hiromi end" didn't seem so solid. But it wasn't because Shin was being indecisive or that he hesitated, but because we audiences didn't know what resolutions he just came up with. Hiromi was indeed very fragile and insecure at that point, and we audiences probably had doubts in Shin as much as her. But then, we're not talking about how Hiromi or us audiences felt. We're talking about Shin here...
Why did we, as the audience who've seen an obvious Hiromi ending from the start , have a hard time finding out Shin's resolutions at that time when Shin's love for Hiromi is supposed to be so apparent? After 13, I think it's pretty obvious. Shin was showing signs of "unfaithfulness". Averting his eyes from Hiromi, lying to Hiromi about staying up all night for the picturebook, lying to Hiromi about some non-existent after festival celebration and all those stuffs.

Quote:
BTW, for those of you who believe that Shin was lying to Hiromi to run to Noe, I urge you to look again. To me, that statement only implied that he would use the time when people were celebrating to go find Noe. I don't see how Shin really gain anything from lying to Hiromi. Besides, both Shin and Hiromi also knew the direction where he was heading, so if Shin did indeed lie and want to be firm with that move, he would have walked back into the crowd and sneaked out later without Hiromi noticing. Yet no such thing happened. He just walked straight out of the shrine, in a totally opposite direction of the crowd. And, to me, that move just says in itself that the statement wasn't intended to be a lie.
Just because Shin didn't sneak out later to avoid being seen by Hiromi didn't mean that he didn't lie to her to go to Noe. It was obvious, even Hiromi herself can tell. But I don't want to stop you thinking otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y
Also, I wouldn't call the talk between Shin and Noe in ep. 13 as a "confession". I mean, I definitely understand your point, but I think you're pushing it a bit too hard there...
I don't know what's so bad in reinstating Shin confessing his heart wavering everytime he looks at Noe. I have no problem with that, frankly, because it was my favorite part of the story. However, it's not like I made this all up lol We all heard it from Shin, didn't we? Shin IS in love with Hiromi, but when he looks at Noe, his heart wavers. I'm not too fangirly to add my own delusions in it.

I'm in love with Hiromi, but when I look at you, my heart wavers. = He's in love with Hiromi, but when he looks at Noe, he's not so sure anymore.

By all means, call it what you want, but that's the point of that confession. It's also the reason why he had to part with Noe. Shin chose to remain loyal to Hiromi, and that's what happened here. Between a newfound encounter, and a long time love, which would you choose?


Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y
In short, I think it's just silly for us to focus so much on relationship part that we're unable to acknowledge what Shin has truly overcome and achieved by the end of the series. Because, seriously, THAT is what made him mature so much.
Well, his relationship with the girls and his maturation ARE connected. There is nothing silly about focusing on his relationship to both girls because that's a huge part of this show and the most interesting IMO. ^_^ In fact, I have yet to see someone discuss Noe's development through Shin, because Shin influenced her the way she did him. Or maybe someone here can discuss what other qualities of Hiromi that attracted Shin to her--except for the fact that she's the sexy, emotional childhood friend that he wants to protect and nurture I certainly can't think of one on the spot, so that would be good.

Last edited by ani_d; 2008-04-03 at 05:57.
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Old 2008-04-03, 06:48   Link #306
b0nyb0y
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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Wow b0nyb0y. You sure had a lot to say lol I couldn't reply to all of your post since I have other things to do, but I'll try my best....

...
Anyway, I'm not going to reinstate this any longer after this post since I've been doing it an awful lot of times now lol It is what it is. If you don't want to see it that way, then so be it. ^__^

...
To tell you the truth, I don't have that much time left to make a response to you either. We definitely spent too much time on this. The reason I made my previous comment was solely because you quoted me, so I took that as you wanting a discussion.

So, if we agree to disagree, I don't have any more things to say. I have stated my views so many times here as well. I did share my views on TT to the world, and did state it a clear manner as my time permitted. And that's good enough for me.
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Old 2008-04-03, 06:52   Link #307
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Well, I can start about Noe.

Before this, Noe only acknowledged one particular kind of person as her equal. That being the Raigomaru (in her mind) archetype.

To her, someone who can not fly is not even worth her interest.
In fact, judging by her initial treatment of Jibeta, it won't be a stretch to say that she despises these kind of people. NO CHICKEN FEED FOR LOSERS!

This mindset however, causes people to avoid her and causes her to avoid people which she deems unworthy.

Midway in the story she realizes, that she might have misunderstood the Jibeta archetype. Perhaps they were capable of flying all along, but have solid reason to chose not to. She begins to acknowledge that the act of making this choice is also comparable to flying.

Finally, during the last episodes she realized that there are many facets of the characters around her that she did not notice earlier. She did not realize Jun's feelings, and she's far from understanding Shin's feelings.

She realized that this might be because of her particular mindset that only looks forward to Raigomaru and no one else.

After this it is assumed that she starts to approach people with a different mindset and gain friends she never considered having before.

And most importantly, she doesn't have to pour out her heart to the sea on chickens anymore. Seriously, that's not healthy.
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Old 2008-04-03, 09:56   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Well, I can start about Noe.

Before this, Noe only acknowledged one particular kind of person as her equal. That being the Raigomaru (in her mind) archetype.

To her, someone who can not fly is not even worth her interest.
In fact, judging by her initial treatment of Jibeta, it won't be a stretch to say that she despises these kind of people. NO CHICKEN FEED FOR LOSERS!

This mindset however, causes people to avoid her and causes her to avoid people which she deems unworthy.

Midway in the story she realizes, that she might have misunderstood the Jibeta archetype. Perhaps they were capable of flying all along, but have solid reason to chose not to. She begins to acknowledge that the act of making this choice is also comparable to flying.

Finally, during the last episodes she realized that there are many facets of the characters around her that she did not notice earlier. She did not realize Jun's feelings, and she's far from understanding Shin's feelings.

She realized that this might be because of her particular mindset that only looks forward to Raigomaru and no one else.

After this it is assumed that she starts to approach people with a different mindset and gain friends she never considered having before.

And most importantly, she doesn't have to pour out her heart to the sea on chickens anymore. Seriously, that's not healthy.
That's a pretty good summary of Noe and I agree with most points.

Though I think at episodes 11-12, Noe can be likened to Jibeta, she once thought she's helping Shin to fly, but later she herself wanted to fly (as literally jumping off a tree) like how Jibeta jumped on Shin's picture book.
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Old 2008-04-03, 12:09   Link #309
harmonious
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I said earlier that I would show some of the signs if I had time. I decided to do at least one and a clear explanation of it. Here is the conversation between Noe and Shin in episode 13, just before she limps away.

Spoiler for episode 13:


There are two things to this conversation. On the surface it seems that Shin is grateful for everything she has given him and implying that he is afraid that he cannot fly without Noe, in fact that is the most obvious. However, Noe doesn't reply with encouragement in that regard, just explanations about her being able to fly.

Noe realizes that he can fly without her and she knows Shin realizes it too, but Shin owes much to Noe and is afraid for her, not himself. He is casting doubt on himself as an excuse, so she consuls him that she can fly without him by her side.

This is not the conversation of someone love stricken and having to part ways. His heart wavers because he knows that they are going to part ways and Noe will have to fly on her own, unlike him who had help to fly. As I said before, Noe gave him the ability to fly and all he could return was heartache. He wants to give in turn what he was given, but cannot and it is heartbreaking to him.

When he is crying and singing, he is watching her walking on her own, limping with crutches down the street, all alone. It was mostly tears for Noe, not himself.

The fact pointed out that Noe couldn't cry for herself was a key element in spring boarding the relationship between Shin and Noe. To get them back, someone had to give her their tears, meaning cry for her.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-04-03 at 12:30.
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Old 2008-04-03, 13:07   Link #310
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
On the contrast, Shin started drawing because of Hiromi -- often monologuing about wanting to take away her tears, as early the prologue of the first episode.
Can't agree with that. He must have been drawing much earlier unless he was heaven gifted with the ability to draw

Also his dad talks to him about drawing as a possible future, not just as an angst outlet
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Old 2008-04-03, 13:30   Link #311
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wow! true tears really touched its viewers ne? it even makes us wax philosophical. i read LianYL's review of True Tears as Life as a picture book perspective and was awed at how much wisdom he could glean from the anime.

this anime is a mirror that reflects something different for each viewer. not since miyazaki's nausicaa has an anime grabbed my attention like this. really looking forward to more of P.A. works!
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Old 2008-04-03, 15:06   Link #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmonious View Post
I have a good eye for such subtleties in stories and the signs of what I am saying are all there.
It is fine to have your own interpretation, but I think to say it is due to "subtleties" is a bit of a stretch. The interpretation relies on creating an additional motivation for Shin that says that what he says and thinks are "excuses" for what he really thinks (but only when applied to Noe and not other scenes). Essentially it changes the show in order to suit a certain interpretation. Which is fine. But to say that this interpretation is what is implied by the show is, as I said, a bit of a stretch.

The quote that ani-d repeatedly brought up is the most clear and important of them all. Shin loves Hiromi but when he sees Noe, his heart wavers. This is a very direct and clear message that Shin has said to Noe. It's a pretty direct message from the writers who made sure the scene had no overtones of pity or sympathy from Shin. This isn't an accident. Now, when looking at the structure of that sentence and what is implied by the comparison, I think the interpretation is clear, but really there's not much point in continuing this argument over and over as it's already gone on for quite a bit and I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind. I think people get the impression that agreeing with this weakens the Hiromi ending. Personally I feel that it just makes True Tears a far more unique, realistic and strong series.
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Old 2008-04-03, 17:20   Link #313
roan
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http://www.truetears.jp/special/tt-news03-01.pdf
(Official newsletter)
From the second paragraph (this ties in with what harmonious was saying).

では、これで眞一郎と乃絵、比呂美の三角関係に決着がついたのかと問われれば、答えは否である 。
なぜなら眞一郎が乃絵との関係を解消し、比呂美と新たな関係を築くための第一歩を踏み出してい ないからだ。
眞一郎が乃絵に恋心を抱いておらず、心の底ではずっと比呂美を求めていたことは
これまでの話の中で明らかなのに、何故彼はいまだに積極的な行動に出ないのだろうか?

その原因のひとつは、彼自身が抱える問題にあるのかもしれない。事故をきっかけに眞一郎の母親 と和解し、
眞一郎との兄妹疑惑も晴れた比呂美は、これまで抱えていた問題を一気に解決してしまった。
だからこそ彼女は、全身全霊を眞一郎との恋に打ち込める状態にある。

ところが眞一郎は乃絵と約束した絵本を描き上げる目途がついていないし、
麦端踊りを周囲が期待するように立派に踊れる自信もない。
その自信のなさが比呂美に対する自信のなさに繋がっているように思える。

そしてもうひとつは、乃絵に対する懸念、気がかりだろう。
眞一郎は乃絵に恋心は抱いていないものの、放っておけない何かを感じているように見える。
それが、その気もないのに告白してしまった罪悪感なのか、
絵本の続きをなかなか描いてやれない気後れなのかはわからない。
だが、乃絵のことを気にしていることは確かだ。
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Old 2008-04-03, 17:39   Link #314
Key Board
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if that's official, it answers a lot of things

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-04-03, 21:33   Link #315
golthin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
if that's official, it answers a lot of things

Spoiler:
wow, people still at it. You would think that even after Hiromi won, they would be happy, but they won't even want to aknowledge that Noe made Shin doubt himself for even a second.
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Old 2008-04-03, 21:54   Link #316
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
wow, people still at it. You would think that even after Hiromi won, they would be happy, but they won't even want to aknowledge that Noe made Shin doubt himself for even a second.
Well, that's a hall of fame straw man if I've ever seen one.
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Old 2008-04-03, 22:47   Link #317
roan
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Translation for the above staff-side commentary (the news letter was released several hours before the airing of the 13th episode):

...
So then, if one were to ask whether a conclusion was brought to Shinichirou, Noe, and Hiromi's love triangle, the answer is no.
This is because Shinichirou hadn't ended his relationship with Noe and made the first step to build a new one with Hiromi.
While Shinichirou did not bear any romantic feelings towards Noe and it was clear that from the story up until now that he had been longing for Hiromi all this time at the bottom of his heart, why had yet to any action?

The first reason for this is probably a problem that he himself has. Hiromi's conflicts had been resolved all at once, having made up with Shinichirou's mother and blood relationship dilemma with Shinichirou being cleared.
That's why she's in a state where she can fully pursue her relationship with Shinichirou.

However, Shinichirou hasn't yet shown any signs of completing the picture book he promised to complete for Noe nor does he have the confidence in being able to dance at the Mugiha Odori as well as the people around him are expecting of him.
That lack of confidence may be connected to his lack of confidence towards Hiromi.

The other reason is his concern and worry towards Noe. Shinichirou, while not having romantic feelings for Noe, appears to be feeling that he can't leave her the way she is.
Whether it is from the guilt he feels for not giving her a sincere confession or the embarassment of not being able to continue the picture book can't be said.
What is definate is that he is concerned about Noe.

Last edited by roan; 2008-04-03 at 23:02.
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Old 2008-04-03, 23:13   Link #318
Guardian Enzo
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Well, that doesn't sound particularly different than the interpretation a good many posters have offered.
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Old 2008-04-03, 23:31   Link #319
b0nyb0y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
wow, people still at it. You would think that even after Hiromi won, they would be happy, but they won't even want to aknowledge that Noe made Shin doubt himself for even a second.
I won't repeat myself again. But I think we should be clear about the point of having this discussion and all.. (link)

Last edited by b0nyb0y; 2008-04-04 at 01:03. Reason: fixed url
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Old 2008-04-03, 23:32   Link #320
Key Board
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wait, wait, wait

I get the feeling that I'm being blamed. I don't like that >_<

Let me translate things

眞一郎が乃絵に恋心を抱いておらず、心の底ではずっと比呂美を求めていたことは
これまでの話の中で明らかなのに、何故彼はいまだに積極的な行動に出ないのだろうか?

Shinichiro held no romantic feelings towards Noe, his heart has always been pursuing Hiromi from the start. Knowing that, we wonder why he hasn't made a move towards Hiromi until now? (then the article goes on and tries to explain things)


その原因のひとつは、彼自身が抱える問題にあるのかもしれない。事故をきっかけに眞一郎の母親 と和解し、
眞一郎との兄妹疑惑も晴れた比呂美は、これまで抱えていた問題を一気に解決してしまった。
だからこそ彼女は、全身全霊を眞一郎との恋に打ち込める状態にある。

One answer to that, is that Shinichiro had personal issues. It is true that because of the recent accident, Shinichiro's mother had managed to make amends with Hiromi. The fear and suspicion of incest has been removed, and Hiromi started to seriously think of pursuing Shinichiro.

ところが眞一郎は乃絵と約束した絵本を描き上げる目途がついていないし、
麦端踊りを周囲が期待するように立派に踊れる自信もない。
その自信のなさが比呂美に対する自信のなさに繋がっているように思える。

However, Shinichiro still had not fulfilled his picture book promise with Noe. He was also preoccupied and quite nervous with the upcoming Mugihara festival dance. We have reasons to believe that the source of his unrest is related with his lack of confidence to face Hiromi properly.

そしてもうひとつは、乃絵に対する懸念、気がかりだろう。
眞一郎は乃絵に恋心は抱いていないものの、放っておけない何かを感じているように見える。
それが、その気もないのに告白してしまった罪悪感なのか、
絵本の続きをなかなか描いてやれない気後れなのかはわからない。
だが、乃絵のことを気にしていることは確かだ

One more reason is his concern towards Noe. He was burdened by it. Shinichiro wanted to help her in a platonic manner but he could only think of vague solutions.

We do not know if he is guilty from of having given a lip service confession (earlier episode) or the fact or if was bothered because he had trouble drawing an acceptable ending for the picture book. But we do know one thing, his concern for Noe is genuine.

See, I'm not the one making up the "no romantic feelings" part
Don't shoot the messenger >_<
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