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View Poll Results: True Tears - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 106 40.93%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 63 24.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 12.36%
7 out of 10 : Good 16 6.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 14 5.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 2.32%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.39%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-30, 09:40   Link #161
Rembr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luapman View Post
In my opinion this is not a healthy societal norm for any culture and shows that conclude as True Tears did only goes to reinforce this norm with the younger generations of Japan.
What societal norm should we be going for instead? American?
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Old 2008-03-30, 09:48   Link #162
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Rembr View Post
What societal norm should we be going for instead? American?
Race, culture and religion aside . I've never thought any relationship built up on memories of childhood to be a healthy reason to move into a romantic relationship. I am sure there are 101 reasons why person A falls in love with person B, but lots of shows don't actually show any of that apart from some memory during childhood. So it looks to me like its someone wanting a romantic/adult relationship based on their memories of a child

At least with TT it has Shin wanting to continue to protect Hiromi and Hiromi wanting to be protected, so I can dig that.
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Old 2008-03-30, 09:48   Link #163
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Spoiler for Episode 13:
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:02   Link #164
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With everything said and done and final episode finished.

It's now time to wait for the True Tears favourite character poll.
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:08   Link #165
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Originally Posted by Rembr View Post
What societal norm should we be going for instead? American?

Don't be hating. I did preface with "In my opinion" you know. And at least my post tied it into the subject at hand so was not off topic, as yours purely is.

@DragoonKain3: Oh, I never said ALL childhood friend hook-ups are sub-par, only that the Hiromi-Shin one is in comparison to an Aiko-Shin or Noe-Shin one. I also have to agree about the promise/proposal point you made, for some reason I think School Days. We all know how that turned out. (Incidentally I loved that series.) It takes a very firm and unwavering heart to say that truthfully and stick to it and Shin was clearly shown not 30 seconds before to certainly not be firm and unwavering. It makes me feel that Shin actually regressed to some degree in his growth in this last episode.

@Grey_Moon: Maybe it's just me but I like to feel equal with my significant other. The whole protected/protector thing is an easy plot device to fall into as an excuse for a relationship in my opinion.
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:15   Link #166
grey_moon
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@Grey_Moon: Maybe it's just me but I like to feel equal with my significant other. The whole protected/protector thing is an easy plot device to fall into as an excuse for a relationship in my opinion.
Me too I prefer equality in a relationship, but also I'm a lets grow together type of person.

My fiancée is a high level musician/artist and I'm a drunken geek. Nothing in common at first, but after quite a few years of being together and experiencing each other's likes and dislikes I feel like I've grown as a person. More importantly we've grown together as a couple.

So for me from what we have seen in the show, Noe would be my choice if I was Shin.
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:33   Link #167
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First off, hats off to the subbers (you know who) for their great job getting it out very quickly. We all really appreciate it.

First impressions posted here.

My immediate reaction to the final pairing is that, well, it's what we've been expecting and predicting for ages. Is it the one I prefer? Well, no, as I've said. In fact I think the scene where Shin says his heart wavers is pretty important considering it agrees with the things we've been saying, and it dismisses the people who said only Hiromi was in his heart and he only liked Noe because of the deal. Personally I do believe that while the writers told us repeatedly that Hiromi and Shin would be the final true pairing, they (probably unintentionally) put more depth/basis behind the Noe pairing, and this is why I always preferred that one while predicting the Hiromi end. However I also found the development of Hiromi to be exactly what was necessary in episode 13. On the downside, I don't know why they deferred Noe's tears to the final few seconds rather than the climactic scene between her and Shin. More on that later. But here's my thoughts, spoiler-form so that I don't take up the entire page:

My objective comments on episode 13:
Spoiler:


Now here's my Noe-fan comments:
Spoiler:


Thoughts on the entire relationship plot line, the idea of "consistency", the idea that those who analyze prefer a Hiromi ending, and why I think the show faltered on that:
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:37   Link #168
W-General
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Sigh, we Noe fans lost...such is life...

It was a good episode, reasonable ending, and overall a great series. Something I could accept. Hiromi is stupid (some of you like to call that "realistic") but I don't hate her. Once she stopped being stupid she's a good girl. (Unlike Kimi ga nozomu eien, I hated Mizuki's guts XD)

At least Miyokichi got together with Aiko. Yay! Miyokichi, you are a nice guy. Nice guys for the win! Miles better than stupid Shin who couldn't decide anything for himself)
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Old 2008-03-30, 10:40   Link #169
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Beautiful ending.
Even though I would like Noe to be happy and be with Shin, I also want Hiromi and Shin to be happy also. I want all of them to be happy.
I no longer hate Shin. I'm glad episode 13 tells us why he has been so indecisive for so long. I really hated the fact that he was so indecisive and hurts all the people around him. It turns out there's a good reason why. It turns out it's because of my favorite character Noe. Who would have thought it would turn out to be like that.
Great episode! Great series!
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:43   Link #170
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Aww what a beautiful ending.
I would like to see Shin with Noe..dunno why, she kinda deserves it. Ah well, everything has come to a good end
Wooah i really hope they'll make a 2nd season :O But i guess they wont (kinda know for sure) TT_TT
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:45   Link #171
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the point of focusing on the boy after jun is that the directors didn't want to focus on his face. plus the little boy is behind him, symbolizing that jun has walked by it, leaving it in the past. it being his feelings for noe.
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:46   Link #172
Aleni
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At the beginning of ep13, Jun asked Shin [if he understood] why Noe couldn't cry.
“self-suggestion...” "only that?"

Jun and Shin both can't give shiyawase to or "save" Noe despite how much they long for. That is a tragedy.

Noe is something, honorable.

beautiful ending indeed.
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:54   Link #173
Rembr
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Originally Posted by Luapman View Post
Don't be hating. I did preface with "In my opinion" you know. And at least my post tied it into the subject at hand so was not off topic, as yours purely is.
?

What societal norm should True Tears be going for instead? American?

That good?

Anyways, since you do seem to imply it, how is America the mecca of correct relationship execution? And how would that be demonstrated had Shin chosen Noe?
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Old 2008-03-30, 11:56   Link #174
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
*facepalm*

Probably the biggest complaint I have IS the ending scene. Hiromi was spot on, I can give you that. She knows that Noe still has a place in Shin's heart, and so that's why she was rejecting him at first.


By itself, Shin's proposal scene would be very moving, as it would've shown the depth of his feelings for Hiromi. But that's if they skipped from episode 10 to episode 13, and without him admitting his heart was wavering whenever he sees Noe in the middle of this episode.

But him doing that 'proposal' after episodes 11 and 12, and so soon after his 'break-up' with Noe just makes his confession looks like a whole pile of bullshit. Even from the previous two episodes, there had already been signs of him 'wavering' from Hiromi. You just can't go from 'wavering' stance to 'proposal' stance over the course of just one scene. Saying you'll be together forever with a girl implies that during that time, it's only that one girl in your heart. But with Shin wavering just the scene before, that doesn't seem to be the case, and so his words of wanting to be with Hiromi for eternity sounds hollow and empty to me despite how well the VA did his job.

Heck, even the comment by Shin after the fact was that he said that the tears come naturally if you think of the one you truly care for. From memory the only girl shown Shin cried for would be Noe, and so that makes me facepalm even more about the confession scene.

The way they should've done it is that his confession scene shouldn't have been as strong. Something along the lines of him still feeling a bit for Noe still, but in the end it's Hiromi who he feels more for and he'll try to think only of her in the future. Either that, or they have them not hook up then, but in a timeskip show that they get together in the future. Or even *gasp* a Noe ending, as long as he doesn't do the same proposal jibberish with her. However, essentially proposing to Hiromi was a very big mistake on the animator's part, as doing that requires almost absolute dedication to a girl in the protagonist's heart, and the animators have shown anything but for the last 3 episodes.
I disagree with your reading of the ending here. First off, they didn't skip from 10 to 13 - those two intervening eps were necessary to support the notion of just how difficult this decision was for Shin. I had earlier mentioned that Noe's main role with Shin was as a change agent for Shin. This built up an enormous gratitude for her, which developed into a kind of brotherly affection. What I think this shows, in the end, is just how powerful Shin's love for Hiromi was - he was tested by a love for another girl, one he could easily have settled for and been happy for at least a while - and one for whom he felt a sense of duty as well as affection. I said before that there was a sense of duty in his relationship with her, and of course he's a boy always driven by a great sense of his duty. In many ways Noe was the easier choice - but Shin's love for Hiromi was so powerful that he couldn't decide any other way.

In effect, the depth of the Hiromi relationship was already in place - a (short) lifetime developed in the better part of ten episodes. The last three were all about testing that love. It's unorthodox, I grant you, but this isn't an orthodox series.
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Old 2008-03-30, 12:02   Link #175
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But what was the "depth of the Hiromi relationship"? The show makes us want to believe it but it just doesn't come off realistically in my opinion. There is a single childhood memory, and apart from that, Shin says they were "casual friends and classmates". In other words there was a long static relationship between them, until finally you have the whole "moving-in-mother-lie" thing which changed it even worse. Compared to the Noe relationship which prompted a lot of growth and development even in it's short time. These are things that Shin himself admits in episode 12 as well as the final break-up in episode 13. He says that he could draw, as well as dance, because of Noe. Those are very important elements of the story, and what he says there itself is stronger than anything that could be said about the other pairing, and the fact that it makes his heart "waver/ache" contradicts the idea that it was simply brotherly or appreciative. In other words I feel the opposite about which is the "easier" choice. In my mind, the Hiromi relationship represented familiarity with their long static acquaintance while the Noe relationship would have to mean recognizing the value independently of each person in relation to the development or growth of the story (and Shin).
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Old 2008-03-30, 12:24   Link #176
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But what was the "depth of the Hiromi relationship"? The show makes us want to believe it but it just doesn't come off realistically in my opinion. There is a single childhood memory, and apart from that, Shin says they were "casual friends and classmates". In other words there was a long static relationship between them, until finally you have the whole "moving-in-mother-lie" thing which changed it even worse. Compared to the Noe relationship which prompted a lot of growth and development even in it's short time. These are things that Shin himself admits in episode 12 as well as the final break-up in episode 13. He says that he could draw, as well as dance, because of Noe. Those are very important elements of the story, and what he says there itself is stronger than anything that could be said about the other pairing, and the fact that it makes his heart "waver/ache" contradicts the idea that it was simply brotherly or appreciative. In other words I feel the opposite about which is the "easier" choice. In my mind, the Hiromi relationship represented familiarity with their long static acquaintance while the Noe relationship would have to mean recognizing the value independently of each person in relation to the development or growth of the story (and Shin).
Noe made him able to draw - but Hiromi was the reason he wanted to in the first place.

In some ways, it's a bit of the old logic vs. emotion argument. Noe was a rational choice, but Hiromi and Shin are so emotionally joined that they complete each other. Really, I think that was pretty much the first ten episodes right there. Shin and Hiromi had gone through their entire lives wanting to be together, and dealing with the things (some self-inflicted) that kept them apart. They needed a catalyst - and that was Noe. It would have been easier and neater if they could have "flown" without her help - without the emotional attachment she inspired in Shin. But they couldn't - she was necessary to their rising above those obstacles and in the process he came to love her as well, in a different way. That was 11-12 and the first half of 13. But in the end, Hiromi was Shin's inspiration and his reason for living, and he couldn't deny that fact.
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Old 2008-03-30, 12:53   Link #177
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The way they should've done it is that his confession scene shouldn't have been as strong. Something along the lines of him still feeling a bit for Noe still, but in the end it's Hiromi who he feels more for and he'll try to think only of her in the future. Either that, or they have them not hook up then, but in a timeskip show that they get together in the future. Or even *gasp* a Noe ending, as long as he doesn't do the same proposal jibberish with her. However, essentially proposing to Hiromi was a very big mistake on the animator's part, as doing that requires almost absolute dedication to a girl in the protagonist's heart, and the animators have shown anything but for the last 3 episodes.
Personally, I think you're putting way, way too much weight on this idea that it was meant as some sort of "proposal". It really wasn't at all; Hiromi was being dramatic. It's all in the tone. Shinichirou turned his sadness into a front of determination -- of course he was still hurting inside, but he was pushing it all aside (a.k.a. "taking it like a man") by focusing on the reason he did all this. That's why his "confession" had all of the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and when she started feigning resistance, he just kept making his determination absolutely crystal clear. And of course, her resistance was because of this sudden extreme insistance that was so out of the ordinary. It was sort of as if Shinichirou was saying "I'm making myself absolutely clear to you, and I already know how you feel, so don't mess with me now". That's why it was a hug and not a kiss. What he (and she both) needed was comfort and acceptance to make up for the fact that he (she) was still in a lot of pain due to what he just had to do (and all that she had gone through). But he had to do this precisely to offset that pain; he had to make things clear, as that was what everyone wanted, including Noe.

So, yeah, that was no proposal. That was just determination born out of necessity. He made his decision, he went through that incredibly painful ordeal, and now he had to finish the job by making it clear to the one he loves that it's Over even if he still feels it (Over with a capital O, so as to avoid the mess his parents went through). I felt it fit perfectly with the preceding scene, and was totally connected to it.


About the on-going conversation regarding the depth of Shinichirou and Hiromi's friendship, I can see how this confusion is happening because all that would have happened off-screen and we weren't privy to it. We know that they were close enough that all of Shinichirou and Hiromi's closest friends each thought it was only a matter of time before they started going out. But we don't get to see any of what that looked like. From the point where we pick up the story, Hiromi and Shinichirou have already been estranged for some time, and the only scene they give us to go by is that scene of them being obviously close as children. We also know that the distance Shinichirou was now feeling from Hiromi was dramatic enough for him to really take notice. Also the distance they had at school was also a point the other friends/observers in the school noticed as indicative of some sort of change. We can at least assume that they were in fact more than just "classmates and acquaintances". You do basically have to extrapolate the rest, though, and I guess that's where the difference of opinion is. Personally, my take is that they had been friends since childhood, since I feel that would best explain why Shinichirou is so troubled by their recent estrangement and why all the classmates and friends took notice of it, but of course that's just a theory based on the snippets of evidence they gave us. I do feel that that theory, though, better explains the depth of their relationship and why it's more than just some sort of superficial/juvenile crush, which in turn leads to my acceptance of the way the plot developed. But we all see things differently, I guess.
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Old 2008-03-30, 13:20   Link #178
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Eeeeeeeeeee

I am so extra sad that Noe didn't get to be with him!! I cried D;

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Old 2008-03-30, 13:28   Link #179
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Well, there's only really a few clues that the writers give the viewers. For example, when Shin is with Noe, Tomoyo says "I thought he liked you!" to Hiromi but that hardly implies that there used to be a deep/inevitable relationship. The part about being "casual friends and classmates" were Shin's own words on the topic so I think it's fairly accurate as well. In fact, I'd agree about what Enzo said about Hiromi being the original "reason" while Noe made him able to do it (draw). I'd weigh the importance of those two things differently, though. He felt like he wanted to "draw" for Hiromi, but it was with Noe that he was actually able to do it. I just think it's odd that Shin and Hiromi are supposed to complete each other even though Shin tells us that two of the most important developments of his, which is being able to draw and performing that dance, are because of Noe. Even though I praised the realism of his admittance of that, it kind of left that hole open and made the final "decision" not as solid as it could have been. And then there's the other odd choice by the writers, which is to make Noe say that she jumped off the tree because she saw Shin's dance and wanted to fly as well. But then we learn that Shin was able to do his dance because of her.
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Old 2008-03-30, 13:45   Link #180
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Well, there's only really a few clues that the writers give the viewers. For example, when Shin is with Noe, Tomoyo says "I thought he liked you!" to Hiromi but that hardly implies that there used to be a deep/inevitable relationship. The part about being "casual friends and classmates" were Shin's own words on the topic so I think it's fairly accurate as well.
It wasn't just the things people said point blank that could be taken as clues. There were some more subtle gestures and side-comments from various people (like Aiko, Nobuse, and Tomoyo as well) beyond just the obvious examples. And I'm not sure that I necessarily quite take Shinichirou's statement at complete face value -- if others saw them as being closer than they were, then he probably isn't as "casual" a friend as he thinks. Plus, again, the change in status/situation is troubling him to such an extent -- were they that far removed from casual friends at the beginning of the show? The contrast there was very important to the rest of the plot.

So... I see what you're saying, but I personally felt more was implied beyond just what was said outright. That being said, it's something I will watch for explicitly when I watch the series on DVD.

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And then there's the other odd choice by the writers, which is to make Noe say that she jumped off the tree because she saw Shin's dance and wanted to fly as well. But then we learn that Shin was able to do his dance because of her.
I'm not sure that I see why you say that's so odd. They essentially inspired each other, which was the entire point of their breaking up scene and why it was both so painful and so laced with symbolism. His passion and determination inspired Noe to try flying herself, but she failed because she wasn't ready. Meanwhile, her earnestness and encouragement is what encouraged him to take that step and be able to dance (and draw). I see the two points as being perfectly complementary, myself...
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