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Old 2008-10-12, 12:15   Link #861
HayashiTakara
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Apparently some of you don't quite get what the scene was about.

To Taiga she was still in love with glass boy, but her becoming overly emotional for no reason about Ryuuji is suppose to tell everyone else that through their time together, unbeknowing to herself, that she has actually developed feelings for Ryuuji as well. Meaning it adds on to how she's a klutz who always messes up, somehow.

@Frubam, the dialogue got completely butchered in the anime version. I don't see how you could say its the same. Especially Ryuuji's inner monologues.
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Old 2008-10-12, 12:18   Link #862
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Deleted for stupid post. Don't worry about it.
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Last edited by stormy001_M1A2; 2008-10-12 at 12:21. Reason: bleh.............sucky reading is sucky so don't worry about it.
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Old 2008-10-12, 12:32   Link #863
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Apparently some of you don't quite get what the scene was about.

To Taiga she was still in love with glass boy, but her becoming overly emotional for no reason about Ryuuji is suppose to tell everyone else that through their time together, unbeknowing to herself, that she has actually developed feelings for Ryuuji as well. Meaning it adds on to how she's a klutz who always messes up, somehow.
You're severely underestimating my intelligence if you think that I didn't somehow "understand" the scene in question. The idea that she was subconsciously in love with Ryuuji was evident even in the anime version, without such cliches as "I always want to be with him". The anime does a pitch perfect job of being subtle, to where we can believe Taiga doesn't realize her affections at this point. With that scene in the manga, it's absolutely farcical that she's spouting the absolute cliche "love confession" lines about Ryuuji and yet somehow remains unaware.

The anime has a precious sense of warmth to it that the manga lacks. The most important thing about that anime scene isn't just that Taiga has (painfully obvious) feelings for Ryuuji, it's also about her and Kitamura. Rather than a classic misunderstanding situation, I liked the fact that he could read her so well that he understood, deep down, exactly what she was trying to say even without the painful anvils-slash-dialogue they used in the manga.

A love confession is not unique simply because it's directed at the wrong person, but much like getting rid of the rest of the tiresome cliches, it instead became a breath of fresh air that told us more about everyone involved instead of "TAIGA LUV RYUUJI NEWS AT ELEVEN LOL". It's the difference between having to have everything spelled out for you in twelve foot tall blinking neon letters, or respecting viewers enough to get past the fluff and deliver the essence, knowing they'll understand.
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Old 2008-10-12, 12:37   Link #864
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I don't see how it is 'painfully obvious' who she likes. For me it is painfully obvious that she likes Kitamura, not Ryuuji.

And I cannot see that much of warmth in their relationship as you declare there to be - it seems very rushed and going way too fast to talk about warmth between them.
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Old 2008-10-12, 12:47   Link #865
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I don't see how it is 'painfully obvious' who she likes. For me it is painfully obvious that she likes Kitamura, not Ryuuji.
Oh hi, you must be new to this whole "anime" thing.

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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And I cannot see that much of warmth in their relationship as you declare there to be - it seems very rushed and going way too fast to talk about warmth between them.
There was nothing rushed about the scene between her and Kitamura.
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:10   Link #866
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I’ve been reading the last few pages and there’s one little thing among all the arguments that I don’t quite understand—that is, the master-servant relationship being brought up every now and then. I’m a manga/novel reader (up to Baka-Tsuki’s translation) and really, I haven’t found this gimmick to be that overbearing as let’s say others novel/manga readers, when I barely notice it myself. So, if some fellow readers mention that rushing the first volume of the novel—or manga, whatever—is good excuse to get rid of let’s say “the mistreatment” of Taiga towards Ryuuji, I wonder if that can be considered a great “payoff.” There’s no indication that Taiga’s behavior is going to change afterwards or as result of Ryuuji’s vow. There was a lot of good stuff that was not included in this episode—mostly character development—that because of such a hurry to move forward, couldn’t actually make it to the anime, which again makes me wonder, if compressing so much into one episode was really a good idea when stretching it into one more wouldn’t hurt.

Regarding the confession scene, the anime version was just fine—nothing particularly great, and nothing particularly ordinary. Now, the version in the manga, I believe, was much closer to the vision of the novel, in my opinion, regardless of whether some people are finding it better or worse than the anime counterpart. But yeah, I liked the manga version a lot more, mostly because of the charming and captivating style (artwork-wise and dialogue-wise).
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:27   Link #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
You're severely underestimating my intelligence if you think that I didn't somehow "understand" the scene in question. The idea that she was subconsciously in love with Ryuuji was evident even in the anime version, without such cliches as "I always want to be with him". The anime does a pitch perfect job of being subtle, to where we can believe Taiga doesn't realize her affections at this point. With that scene in the manga, it's absolutely farcical that she's spouting the absolute cliche "love confession" lines about Ryuuji and yet somehow remains unaware.

The anime has a precious sense of warmth to it that the manga lacks. The most important thing about that anime scene isn't just that Taiga has (painfully obvious) feelings for Ryuuji, it's also about her and Kitamura. Rather than a classic misunderstanding situation, I liked the fact that he could read her so well that he understood, deep down, exactly what she was trying to say even without the painful anvils-slash-dialogue they used in the manga.

A love confession is not unique simply because it's directed at the wrong person, but much like getting rid of the rest of the tiresome cliches, it instead became a breath of fresh air that told us more about everyone involved instead of "TAIGA LUV RYUUJI NEWS AT ELEVEN LOL". It's the difference between having to have everything spelled out for you in twelve foot tall blinking neon letters, or respecting viewers enough to get past the fluff and deliver the essence, knowing they'll understand.
The way she was talking about Ryuuji in the anime was like she was talking about a best friend. Its nothing like talking about someone she likes. Those same exact words can be used towards a female, and no one would consider it to be "ZOMG LESBO LURV!!!"

Lets break it down.

Kitamura : So, you hate him?

Taiga: No, I don't hate him.He makes me yummy friend rice he cheers me up and supports me, and because of that I'm able to be here today, I LOVE YOU KITAMURA-KUN!

So... now would you like to point out how anyone is able to get "I LOVE RYUUJI" from this? All the anime did was made Kitamura to be as dense as a brick. The way the manga did it, made it quite obvious why Kitamura would think that Taiga was in love with Ryuuji. Actually it felt that he purposely acted that way as a form of a rejection without actually rejecting her.

And to make matters worse, the "rejection/misunderstanding" didn't seem to affect her all that much.
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:39   Link #868
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
So... now would you like to point out how anyone is able to get "I LOVE RYUUJI" from this?
I got "I LOVE RYUUJI" from the voice actress' delivery of those very lines. I didn't need to hear any more dialogue than what you quoted to know how Taiga felt about Ryuuji, to know that Taiga herself doesn't understand her own feelings, and to understand why Kitamura responded the way he did. (Because he understood the exact things I did about Taiga.) An actor can convey far more subtext with fewer words than the printed page can deliver. I am not a novel or a manga reader, but I did read the supplied manga page for this scene. The elaborate manga scene was necessary for the printed form to convey the complexity of the scene. But in vocal form, the scene didn't need to be as elaborate because the acting helped flesh it out.
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:50   Link #869
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It's hard to say.

On one hand, we know the context. We know that, whether she loves him or not, Ryuji's the one who changed her life. And it's true she didn't say anything too compromising.

OTOH... It doesn't take much for people to conclude "love". See how the rumors sprung up. Besides, they're the male and female leads of a love comedy.
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:55   Link #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
I got "I LOVE RYUUJI" from the voice actress' delivery of those very lines. I didn't need to hear any more dialogue than what you quoted to know how Taiga felt about Ryuuji, to know that Taiga herself doesn't understand her own feelings, and to understand why Kitamura responded the way he did. (Because he understood the exact things I did about Taiga.) An actor can convey far more subtext with fewer words than the printed page can deliver. I am not a novel or a manga reader, but I did read the supplied manga page for this scene. The elaborate manga scene was necessary for the printed form to convey the complexity of the scene. But in vocal form, the scene didn't need to be as elaborate because the acting helped flesh it out.
The delivery wasn't all that great either. There was no stuttering or excessive pause, it was a flat out. "I appreciate what he did for me, so I don't hate him" type of speech. There was slight shakiness in her voice but its been like that from the start of the confession, even worse so in the beginning.

Kitamura's tone bugs me as well, when Taiga said "Wait.. I did say I love you right?" Then his tone becomes stern and commanding, "I SAID ITS OK", If that bastard is going to reject someone, at least do it without trying to play stupid.

In the manga, Kitamura actually looked somewhat hurt after hearing what she said about Ryuuji.

I'll show some of the pages that followed the confession. Showing only some key parts.

Spoiler for Manga Images of Taiga and Ryuuji talking after confession:
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Old 2008-10-12, 13:59   Link #871
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musouka, oh hi, you are definately one arrogant cookey now aren't you.

I am not really new to anime (though it depends on what you count new and old, since I am into anime since Evangelion release in 1998, it can be counted as new or old by some), still the only thing that is painfully obvious is her feelings for Kitamura, not Ryuuji.

Voice actress voice can be interpretable very differently, depending on ones hearing, but words can be much more clearer, and so far the only clearance that we see is that Taiga likes Kitamura and is thankful for Ryuuji for cooking food and giving her support. Thats all.

More subtle? Could be, but subtle not always make it better. And it never is 'painfully clear' as you stated, thats one thing for sure.
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Old 2008-10-12, 15:35   Link #872
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Everyone sees things differently, I guess, but I haven't read the novels or manga and it was crystal clear to me that her feelings for Ryuuji are strong and will grow to be romantic. She simply enjoys being with him and trusts him now, but other aspects of her feelings can grow, and perhaps are already growing quietly inside her.

Kitamura was perceptive enough to see that she was not going to be left with no-one to love when he said no. That was clear to me from his expression and the way he expressed himself.

It is a mistake to just take the literal surface of her words, as if they were printed on a page. Her tone of voice talking about Ryuuji gave us such strong clues that she had deep feelings (of one kind or another) for him. Maybe you have to take things more literally in a novel, but in the anime things are conveyed by tone of voice, pacing, shot-angle, etc. That's what I saw, anyway.
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Old 2008-10-12, 15:40   Link #873
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The problem that this all besed on interpretation (though words to sense are also based on interpretation, but tehy give clearer information) thus you cannot really say that the strong clues are given specially not when talking about such subject.

We do not really have the indisputable indicators that Ryuuji might mean more than just pal for whom she is thankful.
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Old 2008-10-12, 15:53   Link #874
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Everyone sees things differently, I guess, but I haven't read the novels or manga and it was crystal clear to me that her feelings for Ryuuji are strong and will grow to be romantic.
Yeah, but you could say as much from the name of the series. It's named after them, therefore they'll get together at some point.

At the time she confessed to Kitamura, her feelings for Ryuji weren't necessarily romantic. And she can't be accused of having expressed herself so.
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Old 2008-10-12, 16:22   Link #875
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Yeah, but you could say as much from the name of the series. It's named after them, therefore they'll get together at some point. At the time she confessed to Kitamura, her feelings for Ryuji weren't necessarily romantic. And she can't be accused of having expressed herself so.
You're right that I know they're likely to get together from everything that's gone before, including the title, as well as all the time they have spent together having tsundere fun. And also you're right that she didn't express herself romantically. But that pensive look and tone of voice when she was recounting all he had done for her were like an interior monologue revealing to her what a good friend he was. The romance comes later, but my point is that those things are at least as important as the words she used and what she thought at the time she felt. And all of that was laid out there for us and Kitamura -- but not her -- to see. I'm guessing from what people have said that it was made more explicit in the novel and manga. It didn't have to be made that explicit in the anime. Anyway, all I can really say is that it worked for me, and did not have to be said out loud.
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Old 2008-10-12, 18:02   Link #876
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musouka, oh hi, you are definately one arrogant cookey now aren't you.
No he's not, he's showing appreciation to the anime for not treating him like an idiot and for giving him something new in this genre where we've been force fed the same old crap again and again.

What the confession in the manga is missing is warmth. There's no heart in her confession because she went into it wanting to confess to Kitamura but it gets completely overcast by the shadow of her blatant, overly dramatic explosion about Ryuuji.

The anime counterpart actually manages to give Taiga an honest to god personal touch with confession, where it doesn't feel like you're watching her read the confession off a cue card from someone standing behing Kitamura. The anime does well to help you fall for Taiga, where she begins to take those little steps to something more, whereas the manga feels like she's standing infront of a billboard shouting the entire thing from several stories up.

There's no need for "I LOVE RYUUJI" this early on, and at this point, in the anime she doesn't quite love him, but to Kitamura and everyone else watching, we know something is developing, and that goes a much longer way then the cut and paste job we're given in the manga.
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Old 2008-10-12, 18:04   Link #877
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meh, its a good thing I don't have to depend on some of the aggression in this thread to enjoy what I'm seeing in the anime ... enough to decide to read the manga and the novels later.

Execution of the anime seems fine from a stand-alone perspective so far, though as I've said - its pretty clear even to someone unfamiliar with the story like me that the first two episodes are a compression of time to get to a certain storyline point.
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Old 2008-10-12, 18:15   Link #878
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It was quite obvious the two main characters will fall in love with each other at some point but the series is still good so far.
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Old 2008-10-12, 18:20   Link #879
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I see it as a more emotional part than in anime, so whats wrong with it? Juts because it is more emotional it doesn't mean it is meant it is pointing to idiots. And I do not see that much subtleness in that.

Where do you see same old crap over again is beyond me as there are hard to find such series like Toradora to begin with and the confession scenes are usually handed differently either.

I think that emotions were lost during the confession scene and that the whole scene feels plain compared to manga.

For me the confession holds almost no subtle feelings and is rather plain. I think you are looking into it way too deeply as you are influenced by the title and trying to find TigerxDragon connection where they are missing or taken off.

More so because of all that rushing you don't get to feel developed warmth from Taiga.

Taiga changes too fast, while you may say that it is her character rather than being mean but there is still a limit before one opens up for another and Taiga acts like that way too soon with Ryuuji. I do think that Taiga is annoying in her tsun tsun mode yet, they still needed to make two episodes out of this single one to make it go more smoothly (rumors, Taiga's acting looks forced/too sudden).
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Old 2008-10-12, 18:28   Link #880
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@Master Chibi

me keeps wondering what this “same old crap” is…

warmth? I can say the same thing about the anime, how can you explain her urgency to confess?

You don’t really have to answer the question, because the point I’m trying to make is not something concerning whether one is better than the other due to some flaws, or lack thereof. Seeing your post, and the ones that came before, it seems to be a discussion on the subjective nature of the confession—which each side has already provided his/her own opinion—but really, I wonder, again, is there any point to continue, other than unfortunately escalating this issue into an unnecessary flame war.
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