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Old 2008-10-23, 07:04   Link #1121
Darknemo2000
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Even Ami's true personality is better than Taiga-blob around Kitamura..That was so disgusting to see animated (with combination on how she treats Ryuuji).
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Old 2008-10-23, 09:33   Link #1122
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I thought it was cute,,,,
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Old 2008-10-23, 10:57   Link #1123
Darknemo2000
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I didn't...

On the other hand can Taiga be considered a tsundere so far? Since for me as far as I understand it it seems like you have to be tsuntsun and deredere in same relationship. If you are dere dere with one and always tsuntsun with other then can be such character considered a really tsundere? It looks more like you are an uber birch/bastard to some people and sweet one to completely different ones, then this is what it is.... rather than combination of both...

So far what Ryuuji gets taste of is mostly Taiga's tsuntsun part while most all deredere stuff go towards Kitamura... So from Ryuujis perspective she seems to be just an annoying bitch rather than tsundere (switching from sweet to bitchy).
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:03   Link #1124
npal
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Actually it's because she's so deredere with Kitamura that I can actually keep watching this. I'm kinda fed up with tsundere lolis, so Taiga switching modes so distinctly is a decent enough change for me to watch. And really, I know all of that is supposed to be comedy, but isn't anyone getting tired of creating the same tsundere bitchy violent antics over and over again? I mean, the first few times it's funny but after all the tsundere I had to endure in anime, it has become rather crude and uninteresting.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:13   Link #1125
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But she is still a bitch towards Ryuuji. Thats what annoys me. Tsundere means being both at the same time to the same person, while Taiga is not really that. She is rather mean with Ryuuji and a drooling fool with Kitamura...

npal, you can like Tiaga mostly from Kitamura's perspective, but from Ryuuji's there isnt much to like. If we would take her derdere moments over Kitamura and leave her relationship strictly with Ryuuji then she really paints as a bitch, even bigger one that Louise.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:21   Link #1126
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She seems to have at least a moderate amount of communication and consistency towards Ryuuji, that, too, is refreshing enough, if you don't count the usual violent fits. Plus, from what I recall, no tsundere was going deredere in the first 3 episodes for the main guy, neither Shana, nor Louise, nor Naru, nor any other tsundere I can recall. I can predict that, unfortunately, she'll start the usual tsundere switch towards Ryuuji at some point, and I'd rather haver Ryuuji get together with Minorin for a cliche-shattering finish. But that won't happen... >_<
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:31   Link #1127
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I don't know, for me though there is some interesting connection between the two it is mostly build on Ryuuji being understanding rather than Taiga.

In fact her switches are triggered not by the mood changes (which is considered one of infamous tsundere traits) but the changes of person she deals with. The episode is full of tsundere moments only because it centers more about Kitamura rather than Taiga dealing with Ryuuji... Once the epside doesn't have much of Kitamura her bitchiness level increase as she interact more with Ryuuji and even if there are dere moments they are connected more with Kitamura...

And you remember it wrong. At least from your examples all the mentioned heroines already had their deredere moments by the end of ep 3 (Naru giving the encouragement with those rise-balls, Louise worrying about Saito after Guiche's fight etc.).

In Taiga's case it is just her being bitchy. What creates this relationship into something more is Ryuji's character and how he is able to deal with her and allowing to show herself more openly. Yet the most of those deredere moments come from her being more opnly/worried about Kitamura and not Ryuuji... The stair scene was one of the stronger early indicators where she indeed showed concern about Ryuuji but in anime that part was cut out.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-10-23 at 11:50.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:41   Link #1128
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Aye, I realize its not quite as balanced as it is in the source material, but I can come up with a relatively thick list of dere moments in the anime from Taiga towards Ryuuji in the first 4 episodes.

I'm not even including those in which she's in clear confusion over her feelings and stops the thoughts by projecting out as a kick/punch.

I won't deny the anime isn't simplifying some complexities of her personality though (I can visualize some writer meeting with a manager yelling "dumb it down more!").
Its really unfortunate that some of the scenes DarkNemo is lamenting their absence aren't there --- though I suspect they're linearizing the tsun-dere movement somewhat. I also wonder if someone with controlling input to the writing doesn't really "get" Taiga and is trying to force her into more of a linear tsundere (with the complex loops popping out nonetheless).
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:53   Link #1129
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If you could, Vexx, could you please list some of those scenes, so I could rewatch them and maybe see Taiga as less bitchy, thus increasing my enjoyment more... Since I most probably missed those scenes where she was deredere for Ryuuji and not in connection with Kitamura (be it direct or indirect)...
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:14   Link #1130
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... I'll give it a shot ... but you may have to wait a day or two (some exams this week, I'm a full-time college student now for Career #3: teaching high school).
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:32   Link #1131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
If you could, Vexx, could you please list some of those scenes, so I could rewatch them and maybe see Taiga as less bitchy, thus increasing my enjoyment more... Since I most probably missed those scenes where she was deredere for Ryuuji and not in connection with Kitamura (be it direct or indirect)...
I can name one right off the bat: the last bit of episode 2, when Taiga thinks, "He said, 'Taiga'," and smiles.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:07   Link #1132
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Ah yes that scene, indeed, but it was kind of short nor Ryuuji was aware of that either.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:22   Link #1133
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Actually, aren't you expecting too much in terms of the usual tsundere development in just 3 eps? I think the typical tsundere development takes some episodes to become apparent.

Although hopefully, I'd rather have them divert from that and do something diffferent for a change.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:31   Link #1134
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Off the top of my head, most of the cookie sequence and the telephone pole attack struck me as dere moments and when she apologizes in the restaurant aftermath of Minorin/Kitamura confusion.

episode 3 was definitely a step backwards though in terms of full personality exposure .... I hope that episode was fluke.

What darknemo is on about and what I can't entirely dispute is that the character of Taiga tends to be more complex and full-featured as soon as the sword attack scene in the novels. The anime is making time budget cuts and decisions in which a number of relationship progression moments between Taiga and Ryuuji don't make it onscreen. The result so far could be construed as simplistic. I need to go look but I'm wondering if episode 3 was directed by a different person than ep 2 (or ep 1).

Despite my nits (and yeah I love to nit), I'm still enjoying the series and since its getting me to buy the manga and the novels -- it has basically accomplished its underlying purpose: buy stuff.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:41   Link #1135
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npal, So you want Taiga to remain being bitchy towards Ryuuji? (and isn't it four episodes by now?)

And also while for tsundere it takes time but in Taiga's case she is already deredere just with different person. It makes her look more mean to Ryuuji since lets say in other tsundere's you could say that there are other factors as pride (Louise) or fear (Naru) an issue, but here there doenst seem no issues since she can be perfectly sweet, just that she chooses not to be with the only guy that actually deserves that.

Vexx, I will rewatch the episode again... Juts tee see if I put the focus on those part I can see her being deredere towards Ryuuji.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:49   Link #1136
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Well, maybe there's another factor in her case. The real issue her is that I don't remember a tsundere actually being in love with someone other than the male protagonist, but I do remember than neither Louise, Shana, Naru, etc were tsuntsun all the time with everyone else. Louise in particular seemed vulnerable to some other significant males more profoundly than Saito, in season 1 I think.

My point is that it's too early to draw conclusions for her character, one way or the other, it does seem that it may go the usual cliche way but it's already different in some points, the deredere switch being the more obvious.
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:02   Link #1137
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Well you can Say that Louise and Naru were in love with someone else, the problem is that they showed that part only when the relationship with the male hero moved more. By the time they showed their dere side towards those other love interests they already had their dere side revealed to protagonist.

In Taiga's case it is different since we don't have much development between the two and we are still shown her deredere side while she doesn't really stop (or decrease the amount of her bitchiness) towards Ryuuji. She is still very mean to him once we take out her dere scenes connected with Kitamura...

It is juts Ryuuji is such nice guy that he doenst make an issue over it. however, him not making an issue doesn't mean that Taiga is not acting bitchy towards him without offering much from her sweeter side... Which is what leads us back to what I said in the beginning - Taiga isnt really a tsundere but just a really mean character towards Ryuuji. By the 4th episode most of actual Tsunderes already showed enough deredere moments to at least soften (as its directed to the one who gets the tsun moments) the amount of Tsun. Even Louise or Ayano.

Taiga actually has much more dere moments tahn all of the mentioned tsundere's however her moments are directed to different person while for the person in question she is still basically a bitchy character.

And I would not call it a deredere 'switch' because there is no switch, the only switch is on whom the episode centers if on Kitamura then you get the 'switch' yet it never really switches as it remains the same, if episode goes more about Ryuuji in the center you get the tsun 'switch' yet it is not a 'switch' as well, since switch means changing from one position into another and Taiga doesnt really do that. All that changes are the characters before her but not her reaction towards them.

Also we have to note difference in protogonists... Don't you think that Louise would have been MUCH sweeter if it was someone like Ryuuji tahn the stupid pervert like Saito who goes oogling other girls whenever has the occasion. Ryuuji is pretty cool, not as useless as Saito... and yet Taiga is still on him despite him being one of the nicest guys in animes having a tsundere as a main lead.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-10-23 at 14:15.
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:29   Link #1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Don't you think that Louise would have been MUCH sweeter if it was someone like Ryuuji tahn the stupid pervert like Saito who goes oogling other girls whenever has the occasion. Ryuuji is pretty cool, not as useless as Saito...
Not to mention there'd be no need for Siesta, because Ryuuji would keep everything all neat and clean. XD
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:46   Link #1139
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Vexx, I have rewatched the episode and I still don't see how it was deredere moments. Cookies - she was more concerned about cookies when she fell rather than Ryuuji since right after Ryuuji prevents her fall the scene ends so we can assume that she went straight to get the cookies rather than being concerned for Ryuuji (we know how it was in novels and manga but in anime it is different), in class after Ryuuji eats the cookies she is just surprised but no real deredere as such - she just opened up a little for Ryuuji but wasnt really being nice to him.

One of the stronger scenes is when they eat and when Taiga says sorry for making him being misunderstood but this is an apology, but again not really something I would call dere. Still pretty decent.

The pole scene is once again revealing her anger but not really being nice to Ryuuji except for telling that since tommorow he can stop being a dog.

The only really more dere scene is that smile at the very last seconds of episode two but it is really short and Ryuuji will never know of it.

So yeah, I am still convinced that Taiga is still mainly bitchy towards Ryuuji. He just can make a good listener for her to reveal her problems but this is not her being nice to him as such.
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Old 2008-10-23, 15:35   Link #1140
Vexx
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<shrug> we have different conclusions over the matter of degree and whether a moment is "dere" or not towards Ryuuji. For example, I find the simply the way she sits so comfortably with him in the stairwell to be "dere" rather than immediately jumping away from him. Many others might not.

I guess we'll just have to see if my suspicion is true and the production heads want a "standard tsundere de-icing path" in the series storyboard while members of the team keep slipping in early 'dere' instants.

I also wonder (based on ep 4) if much of the "dere" is going to come in the way of flashbacks in the middle/latter part of the series.

Last edited by Vexx; 2008-10-23 at 16:38.
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