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Old 2009-01-05, 11:39   Link #1281
typhonsentra
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The problem is that when studios make a unique ending it's usually to avoid development that'd drastically change the status quo in the series in order to leave room open for new material.
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Old 2009-01-05, 12:01   Link #1282
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No one seems to believe this can be done well. Have some faith in the studio making the anime. If they fail, THEN you can kvetch about it.
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Old 2009-01-05, 12:43   Link #1283
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Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
You guys are still being rabid purists.
And what makes us purists? That we doubt studios that never made a decent original ending capabilities? Sorry, but if we rabid purists then you are just delusional. JC Staff so far has very bad history when it goes their originality and series.

They can make anime, but when they go original you get ZnT 2 and 3 or SnS 2. Mind tell me their works that would be good with a lot of original?

The closest is Kimikiss... which was one of the worst animes financially of that season.

Sure. it doenst mean that they never will make a good decent original adaptation, but the credibility is very low based on the facts we have so far. So sorry if we are skeptical about their capabilities, but they simply gave very little basis for us to be happy.


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Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
I find it very sad that you believe the studio is incapable of creating an alternate ending that is just as lovable and believable as the one in the novels.
We are just discussing what we see. And no one say that they never ever can make it. But when we look at the fact based on what we have seen produced so far, the chances of making a bad adaptation if going original road is clearly is higher than a good ones. Skepticism does not means that we do not believe it as such. It just means that so far there are much more failures than successful attempts.

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I find it difficult to believe that ratings and sales for the show would drop just because the ending is different than the novel.
One word - Kimikiss. Its a perfect example that originality punishes you financially. Though its not just the ending. The whole series were different from original.
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Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
Do we really live in such a sad world that no one cares about new ideas related to old concepts?
Welcome to earth

But seriously you will be surprised how many novatoric ideas and works get choked under heavy amount of conservatism. Not only in anime, in many many other fields.

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There is one thing I am certain of, it will not get turned into a hentai, at least not by this studio.
Any facts to support such strong statement? Maybe not in hentai, as studio has no reason to fall this low, but making it into ecchi series - that JC Staff can do.

Do you think that ZnT was really just jumping from one boob-joke to another? It was not. It is this this very studio that made it into ecchi series throwing character development out of the window picking out a lot of plot points just to give more space for fanservice.

Probability is low as there wont be second season (hopefully) and changing the tone of genre so drastically would be too much.

But to disregard such possibility completely when they did that with ZnT? You can't really do that.
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Old 2009-01-05, 12:47   Link #1284
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@Baka Ronin: Your words are something I would have loved to say, but never thought would get any agreement. Yes, it's one thing to bitch about a bad series, but quite another to predict that an upcoming one will be lousy. It seems that the less hyped an anime is, the better it becomes.
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Old 2009-01-05, 13:40   Link #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
And what makes us purists? That we doubt studios that never made a decent original ending capabilities? Sorry, but if we rabid purists then you are just delusional. JC Staff so far has very bad history when it goes their originality and series.

They can make anime, but when they go original you get ZnT 2 and 3 or SnS 2. Mind tell me their works that would be good with a lot of original?

The closest is Kimikiss... which was one of the worst animes financially of that season.

Sure. it doenst mean that they never will make a good decent original adaptation, but the credibility is very low based on the facts we have so far. So sorry if we are skeptical about their capabilities, but they simply gave very little basis for us to be happy.




We are just discussing what we see. And no one say that they never ever can make it. But when we look at the fact based on what we have seen produced so far, the chances of making a bad adaptation if going original road is clearly is higher than a good ones. Skepticism does not means that we do not believe it as such. It just means that so far there are much more failures than successful attempts.



One word - Kimikiss. Its a perfect example that originality punishes you financially. Though its not just the ending. The whole series were different from original.


Welcome to earth

But seriously you will be surprised how many novatoric ideas and works get choked under heavy amount of conservatism. Not only in anime, in many many other fields.



Any facts to support such strong statement? Maybe not in hentai, as studio has no reason to fall this low, but making it into ecchi series - that JC Staff can do.

Do you think that ZnT was really just jumping from one boob-joke to another? It was not. It is this this very studio that made it into ecchi series throwing character development out of the window picking out a lot of plot points just to give more space for fanservice.

Probability is low as there wont be second season (hopefully) and changing the tone of genre so drastically would be too much.

But to disregard such possibility completely when they did that with ZnT? You can't really do that.
1: we are not talking about kimikiss or zerno no tsukaima. We are talking about Toradora. Whilst I can understand that similar occurances can set a precedent. I fail to see why this means any changed would be negative. Every single one can't fail. You're just being pessemistic.

2: Anyone who insists that any changes to the original story are negative is a rabid purist. Display this type of behavior and you will get this type of label.

3. What is novatoric? I could not find reference to such a word in the english language.

4. I doubt very seriously that this series will change from a drama to an ecchi anime. The very idea is ludicrous.
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Old 2009-01-05, 13:49   Link #1286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
But to disregard such possibility completely when they did that with ZnT? You can't really do that.
Who is this mysterious "they", anyway?

J.C. Staff is an animation production company. "They" are hired by publishers to produce anime on the publisher's behalf. The anime's production committee will approve if not explicitly select the director, series planner, along with all the other key staff who will work on the adaptation. The publisher of the original work is on this production committee, approving the decisions made regarding the production. Sometimes the original authors are also part of the production committee, but oftentimes they're not, but the publisher's job is to sell products. Sometimes, they feel the best way to do that is to do a literal adaptation. Sometimes, they feel the best way to do that is to be creative and original. And sometimes, they feel the best way to do that is to ramp up the fanservice content to the max. It's not as if J.C.Staff is in a position to make that decision on their own -- the entire production committee sets the tone and direction for the product that they're going to sell, and J.C.Staff produces a product to spec. I'm sure that sometimes they have more creative input than others, but the work J.C.Staff produced for Media Factory (Zero no Tsukaima) doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the work produced for King Records/MediaWorks (Toradora!), Geneon/MediaWorks (Shakugan no Shana), Bandai Visual/Enterbrain (Kimikiss), or any other publisher group. They're not just given a property and told to run with it (and if they are, it's still the publisher's choice).

So it was not "they", J.C.Staff, who turned ZnT into anything. They're producing the show the publishers paid for. And the publishers, who own the rights to the franchise, can produce whatever sort of show they damn well please. Of course that doesn't mean you have to like it. But the connection to J.C.Staff is tenuous at best -- they're just paid to animate shows.

All in all, I can't believe we mods allowed this conversation thread to go on for so long. This is at best "meta"-related to Toradora, but only on the most tenuous a basis (See? It's animated by the same people who animated other shows that didn't turn out the way I liked!). (And I still can't believe that "hentai" was used as an illustration.)

Let's go back to the real topic at hand...

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-01-05 at 14:01.
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Old 2009-01-05, 13:53   Link #1287
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1. We are talking about the works of the same studio. It doenst mean that it will necessarily be the same but it gives material to compare. It makes more sense than comparing works of different studios.

Though as many stated the team is also what matters. But so far the studio did nothing to really disapprove the statemnet that their original interpretation attempts ends up in ruins one way or another.

2. We are not saying that CHANGES are bad we are saying that so far all the changes have been bad. What do you want us? To say that it will be necessarily good? Sorry but the studio just doesnt give anything to make one so firmly believe that it will be success. And for the last time - NO ONE IS SAYING THAT IT WILL NECESSARILY FAIL. What are we saying that because usual adaptations ends up bad it is better to avoid all that and do it following the novels.

When we will be bombed with good animes with good original endings then of course such position may change but so far, numbers do not speak in originality's favor.

3. Novatoric is the words we use in philosophy discussions. I kind of used without thinking that someone may not know what it means - it means new, futuristic, progressive.

4. While it may be ludicrous, you cannot completely deny such possibility. I would have said that ZnT would never be made in just fanservice fest based on novels too, and even the first season wasn't bad in that regard either. But second season proved that they can drastically increase the fanservice if they feel like it.

And because it happened by the same studio (though by a different team) you have to admit that you cannot disregard such possibility either.

Relentless, cometee is not everything. Directing plays an important part in all it. And no one from cometee is sitting and directing anime, they tell how it should go but they never tell how scene in scene it has to go, it is directors job to do, no one from them is writing script - its scriptwriters that do that. While committees importance is unquestionable the team that works on it gathered by the studio is just as important.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-01-05 at 14:06.
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Old 2009-01-05, 14:37   Link #1288
Baka Ronin
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It is obvious that changing it to an ecchi type would alienate all the fans. They would we complete idiots to do this. I too would likely stop watching it and may even go so far as to send them a nasty letter. It seems many of the people here are completely discounting any possibility that the ending can be different in any way from the novels. This is my whole point. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
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Old 2009-01-05, 15:13   Link #1289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
It is obvious that changing it to an ecchi type would alienate all the fans. They would we complete idiots to do this. I too would likely stop watching it and may even go so far as to send them a nasty letter. It seems many of the people here are completely discounting any possibility that the ending can be different in any way from the novels. This is my whole point. Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
1 - Ecchi-type attracts some fanbase, FACT. You drop, somebody else pick up. Sad but true.

2 - Yes, some people here overreacted about a possibility. But you must have in mind that this possibility has a medium probability of become reality. And that is what fears some people here - including myself.

Well, sorry for any error in my 'Engrish'.
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Old 2009-01-05, 15:40   Link #1290
Baka Ronin
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with such a strong fanbase right now there is no reason to make such a drastic paradigm shift with this anime. I doubt very seriously that this will occur. On a side node, I quit ZnT because the two main characters never made any progress and I got frustrated with the writer's inability to develope an honest relationship. Kimikiss was epic fail because of poor writing. Toradora has enough drama and progression to keep most fans, like me, happy, there is no logical reason to alienate one large fanbase to gain another. It would be asinine in the extreme.
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Old 2009-01-05, 16:19   Link #1291
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Baka Ronin, well some part of ZnT fans were allienated but it was compensated by the ecchi fans that joined in, so you cannot say that it would be just a stupid decision.

And Lousie and Saito do make progress in ZnT... but in the novels..specially after volume 8 which anime skipped completely (though tried to bring some parts later it was a fail mostly). Anime didnt want them to progress because of the overplayed Baka-inu jokes.

Personally, I think it would be stupid and Toradora even originally has less fanservice than ZnT but again there were moments in ZnT where they ran out of novel fanservcice scenes and just created their own.

And it still worked. Selling rates though dropped, it wasn't really big.

And yes you are right about not counting chickens before they hatch, yet when you fall into the same whole 9 times, for the tenth you may be not so confident walking at straight through it again, and willingly or not start looking around for the other way that would lead around it.
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Old 2009-01-05, 16:31   Link #1292
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Relentless, cometee is not everything. Directing plays an important part in all it. And no one from cometee is sitting and directing anime, they tell how it should go but they never tell how scene in scene it has to go, it is directors job to do, no one from them is writing script - its scriptwriters that do that. While committees importance is unquestionable the team that works on it gathered by the studio is just as important.
The production committee vets all the major decisions that affect the course of the show. So, of course they would not presume to tell the director how to direct or the scriptwriter how to write. However, they are the customer, they own the rights to the property, and they wouldn't allow the staff to do anything with their property if they weren't okay with it, because after all they're the ones who have to sell it. So you can't make-believe like J.C.Staff is ruining adaptations completely on their own freewill and it's "just a matter of time" before "they" ruin something else.

All of this has nothing but arguably-spurious connections to Toradora! You're still arguing whether faithful adaptations are better than original ones, and only bringing this show in as an abstract.
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Old 2009-01-05, 17:18   Link #1293
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Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
You guys are still being rabid purists. I find it very sad that you believe the studio is incapable of creating an alternate ending that is just as lovable and believable as the one in the novels.
The rest of your post was just you insulting us, so I cut it off.

So, how about you give examples, at least five, where the alternate ending was just as good as the one in the novels/manga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
The problem is that when studios make a unique ending it's usually to avoid development that'd drastically change the status quo in the series in order to leave room open for new material.
This.

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Originally Posted by Baka Ronin View Post
No one seems to believe this can be done well. Have some faith in the studio making the anime. If they fail, THEN you can kvetch about it.
Because it can't. Cutting off important character development can almost never be done well. I've never seen it.

By changing the ending, but keeping all the previous character development, you are introducing inconsistency into the story, and, frankly, ruining it.

This is why I largely prefer original anime to adaptations.

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1: we are not talking about kimikiss or zerno no tsukaima. We are talking about Toradora. Whilst I can understand that similar occurances can set a precedent. I fail to see why this means any changed would be negative. Every single one can't fail. You're just being pessemistic.
No, it's called being realistic.

Examining history can tell us that much. You, for one, are being too optimistic.

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2: Anyone who insists that any changes to the original story are negative is a rabid purist. Display this type of behavior and you will get this type of label.
And anyone who labels people who prefer the original stories for specific, sensible reasons "rabid purists" should probably find another term that isn't so deliberately insulting.
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Old 2009-01-05, 17:39   Link #1294
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Guys, seriously. Shut up already. You've been at this for days and you're right back where you started. Now you're all just degrading into veiled insults and lame comebacks. Give it a rest.

This is the Toradora! Generic discussion thread. I expect subsequent posts in this thread to be about this show, and not just connected via some strange hypothetical abstraction.
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Old 2009-01-05, 17:42   Link #1295
Kaisos Erranon
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You know, I find it funny that you guys are so militant here, yet we have massive off-topic discussions in the Haruhi forums all the time and no one cares.
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Old 2009-01-05, 18:01   Link #1296
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You know, I find it funny that you guys are so militant here, yet we have massive off-topic discussions in the Haruhi forums all the time and no one cares.
Well, to be fair, it's not "you guys". It's just me in this case. When things start degrading into veiled insults, and when the whole thing is based on specious hypothetical situations to begin with, I think it's time to call it quits. You guys were just going to keep on arguing until you get bored and moved onto some other topic, because no one was making any serious efforts to come to any sort of common ground or understanding.

And I have to admit that I don't follow the Haruhi forum anymore in any sort of detail, possibly because of all the "massive off-topic discussions". But if you report those discussions, they'll be dealt with. And if you're telling me this because you want me to go check it out and deal with it, that can be done. Off-topic posting is an infractable forum offense. Occasional drifts off-topic are to be expected, but not when it goes on for days and pages.
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Old 2009-01-05, 18:29   Link #1297
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I have nothing further to add to this discussion as apparently the moderators do not like what I have to say. So much for freedom of speech.
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Old 2009-01-05, 19:56   Link #1298
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Not to be a bitch or anything, but couldn't we go back to talking about Toradora, here? So, when's the series coming back? This week already?
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Old 2009-01-05, 19:58   Link #1299
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Yes this week .
I really need new toradora.. im suffering from withdrawal
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Old 2009-01-06, 01:58   Link #1300
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This Thursday, should be. It's a pity they air the shows one week later than in Japan from where I am, so this Thursday won't have any Toradora! for me. Youtube is the other option though.

I find myself checking youtube every hour just to find if somehow Ep14 gets posted in advance
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