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Old 2008-12-29, 17:54   Link #221
azul120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
A big part of what Nina became in R2, was because of all the garbage Schneizel was feeding her. And each time, he told her "that's what Euphie would want you to believe".

And why wouldn't Nina believe him? Schneizel was Euphie's brother, shouldn't he know Euphie more than most? And the nice man was giving her nice dresses and all the funding she needs for her research, all for Euphie's sake...

Schneizel's actions were once defended by many posters on this forum for a long time. Some even suggested that he should become Emperor for there to be a happy ending, that he was somehow the only good guy in the show. Nina, Suzaku, and Ougi, at one point or another, had all became Schneizel's shield, blocking him from blame because they each made a spectacle of themselves and diverted attention away from the puppet master.
I'm not too surprised, really. Fandoms are full of hyperbole at times. There were people who felt Lelouch totally deserved the mind wipe he got from Charles between the two seasons, even though it was Charles who deserved to get his just desserts in the first place for being responsible for what Lelouch had become, and what Lelouch wanted to stop.

Quote:
Schneizel was punished. Very severely might I add, by Lulu's standards. He became a servant of Zero for life, using his intellect to serve the world's protector against his will.
Indeed. And even as a staunch opponent of the Code of Hammurabi, I really don't think Schneizel deserved a second chance. Had he been allowed his own free will, he would have likely continued his own plot for world domination. He was a bad seed.
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Old 2008-12-29, 18:20   Link #222
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Again, what? There is no comparison between C.C and Nina. It is a different thing to take's one life and another to cause a fucking genocide
And now it really comes down to personal values.
You think that ruining a few people's lives can be forgiven much easier than taking away the ones of many. I believe that there isn't much of a difference, because crowds are made up of individuals and it's the individual I care about - not the numbers.
Someone like Schneizel would be inclined to take this a step further and say that all kinds of sacrifices are justified if it is for the greater good - what's the life of a few thousands compared of the fate of the whole world, after all?

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and get away with it cause "ZOMG YOU BECAME A STRONGER PERSON WHILE YOU WERE WEAK IN THE BEGINNING!!"
Sure.
I never said it like that.
But as I see it, punishing Nina now that she had already changed simply wouldn't serve any purpose.
It won't change the past, it won't make her realize her mistakes - because she already has -, and it is not necessary to forcibly prevent her from repeating them.
It won't even make anyone happy, because Lelouch's death already did that.

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And? Your point? This does rid her of her punishment?
If Nina needs to be punished, then the same applys to Nunally. Nina may have told people to use Fleya, but Nunally was one of those who actually pulled the trigger.
Lelouch, however, chose to "break the ongoing circle of hatred" instead, and I don't have any problem with that.
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Old 2008-12-29, 18:39   Link #223
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And now it really comes down to personal values.
You think that ruining a few people's lives can be forgiven much easier than taking away the ones of many. I believe that there isn't much of a difference, because crowds are made up of individuals and it's the individual I care about - not the numbers.
Someone like Schneizel would be inclined to take this a step further and say that all kinds of sacrifices are justified if it is for the greater good - what's the life of a few thousands compared of the fate of the whole world, after all?



I never said it like that.
But as I see it, punishing Nina now that she had already changed simply wouldn't serve any purpose.
It won't change the past, it won't make her realize her mistakes - because she already has -, and it is not necessary to forcibly prevent her from repeating them.
It won't even make anyone happy, because Lelouch's death already did that.



If Nina needs to be punished, then the same applys to Nunally. Nina may have told people to use Fleya, but Nunally was one of those who actually pulled the trigger.
Lelouch, however, chose to "break the ongoing circle of hatred" instead, and I don't have any problem with that.

So you think that Hitler is on the same level as a guy who kills his wife?

I could do without the punishment, what I can't do away with is the idea that Nina is a "GOOD PERSON" and the crap that Nina isn't really at fault for her actions. Theirs a huge difference between forgiving someone and enduring the hatred of a person.

As for Nunnaly, I was pissed that the Britannian royal family which is staffed by nutcases assholes, and inhuman monsters is still ruling Britannia.

Its like Nina and Nunnaly were rewarded for their actions.

Last edited by Charred Knight; 2008-12-29 at 18:57.
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Old 2008-12-29, 18:44   Link #224
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
So you think that Hitler is on the same level as a guy who kills his wife?
Yes. Sadly, yes. God, here in this section. :x
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Old 2008-12-29, 19:00   Link #225
azul120
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
As for Nunnaly, I was pissed that the Britannian royal family which is staffed by nutcases assholes, and inhuman monsters is still ruling Britannia.

Its like Nina and Nunnaly were rewarded for their actions.
So you're equating Nunnally to Schneizel and Charles, just because of what she was doing at the behest of the former?
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Old 2008-12-29, 19:02   Link #226
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
So you think that Hitler is on the same level as a guy who kills his wife?

I could do without the punishment, what I can't do away with is the idea that Nina is a "GOOD PERSON" and the crap that Nina isn't really at fault for her actions.

As for Nunnaly, I was pissed that the Britannian royal family which is staffed by nutcases assholes, and inhuman monsters is still ruling Britannia.

Its like Nina and Nunnaly were rewarded for their actions.
No, no one said Nina was a good person. But she was far from the worst.

And who should rule Britannia in your view? A Chinese? An European? Have Britannia cut up and share as loot amongst the UN? At some point, your need to "punish" somebody had to end.

In the CG universe, Lulu managed to divert everyone's anger towards himself. Blood is spilled, and that was the end of that.

No, I am not trying to convince you. It is not possible to do that. Revenge is such a natural thing to do, it is built into our brains. That's why the only way for the war to end for Lulu is to lie and deceive, because there are always someone who prefer blood than peace.
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Old 2008-12-29, 19:08   Link #227
Charred Knight
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
No, no one said Nina was a good person. But she was far from the worst.

And who should rule Britannia in your view? A Chinese? An European? Have Britannia cut up and share as loot amongst the UN? At some point, your need to "punish" somebody had to end.

In the CG universe, Lulu managed to divert everyone's anger towards himself. Blood is spilled, and that was the end of that.

No, I am not trying to convince you. It is not possible to do that. Revenge is such a natural thing to do, it is built into our brains. That's why the only way for the war to end for Lulu is to lie and deceive, because there are always someone who prefer blood than peace.

Who should rule Britannia?

How about the people? You know a democracy like the one we have? Do you have a problem with Democracy?

Liike I said before I don't want people punished, so much as I want them to stop being rewarded.

Nunnaly was rewarded with her actions by being named ruler of Britannia, Nina was called a good person, and Ougi was rewarded for his actions by being named Prime minister.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
So you're equating Nunnally to Schneizel and Charles, just because of what she was doing at the behest of the former?
Stop blaming Schneizel for everything, Schneizel didn't force Nunnaly to push the button Nunnaly chose to push the button.
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Old 2008-12-29, 19:29   Link #228
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Because Schneizel told her that, if she did, things would be better.

Whoops.
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Old 2008-12-29, 19:30   Link #229
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
So you think that Hitler is on the same level as a guy who kills his wife?
It's much more complicated than that.
But I'm not in this forum to talk about Hitler, and I would never compare him to Nina.
If you look at the kind of individual Hitler was, you will probably see a large difference between him and a man who kills his wife - even without knowing how many deaths he caused.

As for the rest... I mostly agree with Vallen Chaos Valiant again; only that I wouldn't put all the blame on Schneizel.
Hm... by the way, I get the feeling that many people seem to think that he was simply bend on world domination. But even though I strongly disagree with his methods and think that Lelouch geassing him was the best course of action, he is not the epitome of evil.
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2008-12-29 at 20:30.
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Old 2008-12-29, 20:31   Link #230
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
It's much more complicated than that.
But not I'm in this forum to talk about Hitler, and I would never compare him to Nina.
If you look at the kind of individual Hitler was, you will probably see a large difference between him and a man who kills his wife - even without knowing how many deaths he caused.
The kind of individual? You mean insane?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
As for the rest... I mostly agree with Vallen Chaos Valiant again; only that I wouldn't put all the blame on Schneizel.
Hm... by the way, I get the feeling that many people seem to think that he was simply bend on world domination. But even though I strongly disagree with his methods and think that Lelouch geassing him was the best course of action, he is not the epitome of evil.
The point is that, if Lelouch's death was to clear everyone make them all nice and squeaky with a new lease on life. Where is Schneizel's second chance? Why is he left enslaved for the rest of his life, when people like Nina, who wanted to kill the Japanese long before she met Schneizel, got off free.
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Old 2008-12-29, 20:52   Link #231
Nogitsune
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The kind of individual? You mean insane?
Fot example, yes.
Not that a man who kills his wife is always sane, but I think the difference should still be very clear.

Quote:
The point is that, if Lelouch's death was to clear everyone make them all nice and squeaky with a new lease on life. Where is Schneizel's second chance? Why is he left enslaved for the rest of his life, when people like Nina, who wanted to kill the Japanese long before she met Schneizel, got off free.
Because Schneizel is "today". He never changes.
Cornelia more or less said it: In a world without conflict, he would have been the perfect king. No personal desires and no attachments, but highly intelligent and only having the "greater good" in mind.
In any other kind of world, however, that only makes him incredibly dangerous.
Lelouch knew that, and even if he had wanted to, there was no way he could have taken the risk.
Not to mention that, since Schneizel had no personal desires, he probably wouldn't have been able to make much use of a "second chance".
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:00   Link #232
incorrupts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Fot example, yes.
Not that a man who kills his wife is always sane, but I think the difference should still be very clear.



Because Schneizel is "today". He never changes.
Cornelia more or less said it: In a world without conflict, he would have been the perfect king. No personal desires and no attachments, but highly intelligent and only having the "greater good" in mind.
In any other kind of world, however, that only makes him incredibly dangerous.
Lelouch knew that, and even if he had wanted to, there was no way he could have taken the risk.
Not to mention that, since Schneizel had no personal desires, he probably wouldn't have been able to make much use of a "second chance".
Since this thread, is kindergarten by now, we might as well bring the pom-pom as well and nitpick on words as well.

Oh, i did not know that Schneizel was not a human being but a definition of time. Hm, i guess he does not deserve a second chance then. Since he NEVER changes. And who can truly be the judge of this? Oh, let me guess. The judges that decided that Nina should get a clean-free pass for her genocide. Yah. So since the "court" is already biased towards Schneizel, ok then.

Also, Cornelia said a lot of crap. Just saying. {like that Zero is going down in the last epi of S1, yah.}
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:05   Link #233
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Oh, i did not know that Schneizel was not a human being but a definition of time. Hm, i guess he does not deserve a second chance then. Since he NEVER changes. And who can truly be the judge of this? Oh, let me guess. The judges that decided that Nina should get a clean-free pass for her genocide. Yah. So since the "court" is already biased towards Schneizel, ok then.
Then let me rephrase this: As I see Schneizel, it would take a lot to change Schneizel. He probably loved all his siblings, but he was ready to kill them for the "greater good" any time.
He didn't care much about anything but world peace... at any cost.
So yes, he was a risk Lelouch just couldn't take.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:08   Link #234
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Keep in mind that there are limits to what is punishable, or else you're favoring the letter of the law over the spirit thereof.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:09   Link #235
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Then let me rephrase this: As I see Schneizel, it would take a lot to change Schneizel. He probably loved all his siblings, but he was ready to kill them for the "greater good" any time.
He didn't care much about anything but world peace... at any cost.
So yes, he was a risk Lelouch just couldn't take.
Which makes the system absolutely arbitrary and subjective. Schneizel never wanted to murder an entire world, he wanted to turn it into a world where people did not hate one another. His means were simply different.

Nina wanted to annihilate a group of people through hatred and fear.

Which one of those, would you want running on the streets?
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:17   Link #236
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Which makes the system absolutely arbitrary and subjective. Schneizel never wanted to murder an entire world, he wanted to turn it into a world where people did not hate one another. His means were simply different.
I never denied that.
But I was never talking about establishing a new system - just saying that I don't have a problem with Nina not getting punished.

Quote:
Which one of those, would you want running on the streets?
By the end of Code Geass?
Definitely Nina.
And I don't even dislike Schneizel. I just think he's incredibly dangerous as long as there is conflict.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:17   Link #237
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Originally Posted by Frostfire View Post
Which makes the system absolutely arbitrary and subjective. Schneizel never wanted to murder an entire world, he wanted to turn it into a world where people did not hate one another. His means were simply different.

Nina wanted to annihilate a group of people through hatred and fear.

Which one of those, would you want running on the streets?
So you agree with a world ruled by fear than a world that has a tomorrow?
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:22   Link #238
incorrupts
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
So you agree with a world ruled by fear than a world that has a tomorrow?
Except you missed the point painfully. Frost was talking about Nina and Schneizel having supposedly "equal" rights in punishment or "free-pass". Jesus people, stop twisting posts to make lame remarks.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:25   Link #239
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
Except you missed the point painfully. Frost was talking about Nina and Schneizel having supposedly "equal" rights in punishment or "free-pass". Jesus people, stop twisting posts to make lame remarks.
I think your the ones twisting posts. Have you heard the term don't speak unless spoken too so please take the hint. I was merely comparing the difference in those actions. Nina's genocide or Schneizel's controlling through fear.
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Old 2008-12-29, 21:30   Link #240
incorrupts
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Originally Posted by Mahakala View Post
I think your the ones twisting posts. Have you heard the term don't speak unless spoken too so please take the hint.

We are supposed to have democracy last time i checked and also, last time i checked you were not my papa to tell me what to do and what not.
Point is you also made a lame ass post again {like you do on the profiles of people, accusing other people, yep, high} so let's get back on topic alright?


And again, on topic, you missed the point painfully, i repeat. Frost was talking about Nina and Schneizel trying to say that Nina is equally or more dangerous than Scheizel running and gunning free. Or that she at least should get the punishment to learn that genocide-trigger is not trigger-happy.
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