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Old 2011-01-24, 18:55   Link #301
Xander
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That's a matter of personal preference and interpretation, but it's worth pointing out Lelouch was always an arrogant person whose original quest was essentially based on his own desires and ideas, not those of Nunnally or anyone else, in spite of all his self-justifications.

Nobody told him to become Zero and manipulate everyone else, both literally and figuratively, for the sake of his own aspirations and nobody told him to carry out Zero Requiem for the sake of his own needs. Both of those were choices that Lelouch made and they can all be considered rather arrogant, because while certain aspects are truly selfless others remain, no doubt, arbitrary and questionable. All of his actions affected other people who, strictly speaking, had the right to avoid being involved in situations that weren't of their own making but simply a result of Lelouch's decisions. Logically enough, his choices weren't always correct or even necessary in the first place.

Whether you believe that ZR is still too much is, of course, another matter, but this general theme has been present in the story from its very beginning. It's up to each member of the audience to decide how to react to such things.

Me? You could say I'm content with accepting that arrogance was an undeniable part of his personality throughout the entire show, and thus one can argue his ultimate conclusion was based on trying to reconcile two (or more) distinct ideas:

a)letting people choose their own future as soon as Lelouch left the stage.

b)doing it in a way that would satisfy Lelouch's own psyche, pride, guilt complex and sense of justice.

While there is more than one contradiction involved, to say the least, it must nevertheless be pointed out that Lelouch's way of doing things has never been free of tensions, ironies and logical or moral paradoxes.

And since we've debated this more than a dozen times, I believe, I'll just try to quote or paraphrase one of the few good things that ever came out of TV Tropes...tropes are not inherently good or bad. They are what we -and the creative staff- want to make of them. Story concepts and plot devices which some find intolerable will be perfectly acceptable for other people...and, naturally, vice versa.

All of which brings us back to an old discussion...whether we should be assuming that the show ever had the obligation or intention of providing a straightforward, plausible or just and fair moral message with universal application instead of one whose meaning is exclusively centered on none other than Lelouch himself, as the protagonist of a completely fictional narrative arc (not to mention that reality is full of flesh and blood "karma houdinis" who will never be truly punished for committing horrible acts and innocent people who have been treated unfairly).

As much as many of the contradictions and ironies represent the show's undeniable storytelling flaws...I believe they also represent, not always but certainly a lot of the time, what made the story interesting for me.

Last edited by Xander; 2011-01-24 at 19:06.
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Old 2011-01-24, 19:05   Link #302
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I guess, for one thing, it hit a little too close to home in a more trivial manner after Jay Leno screwed Conan out of the Tonight Show a year ago.

And I still think you oversimplified things a bit, blade. Revenge was only part of his overall motive behind opposing Britannia. (Ditto Nunnally, for that matter.) He wasn't without fault, but some of those things could be attributed to Diabolus Ex Machina, or in the case of the betrayal, both Schneizel being a lying bastard and Ohgi being idiotic enough to believe him and Villetta.
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Old 2011-01-24, 19:10   Link #303
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wow...
just wow...
i'm in awe...real life ppl get less discusion than lelouch nowadays. turns out a fictional character has more soul. the depth, the paradoxes...
not to mention that lelouch was a prick. a very big one. why would anyone want to talk about him? selfish asshole really. but wait, he is so complicated, there is so much left unclarified...shit...i'm gonna go to animesuki and post my brains out!!!
damn, i'm gonna get a bad rep for this post, ain't I? oh well, do as u please...
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Old 2011-01-24, 19:29   Link #304
Xander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
wow...
just wow...
i'm in awe...real life ppl get less discusion than lelouch nowadays. turns out a fictional character has more soul. the depth, the paradoxes...
No, not really. I'd appreciate if you could avoid using that straw man argument here.

Fictional charaters, by their very nature, are less complex than human beings. I don't think anyone should ever assume that Lelouch has the same amount of depth as even the most disgusting and pathetic human being. This goes both for him and for any other remotely comparable fictional character in anime or Western animation and literature. The existence of a huge gap between reality and fiction is clear.

However, fictional characters can be irrational, flawed and contradictory...because, guess what, people are also like that. That is, in essence, the only point of comparison I've suggested. Whether you want to call that depth or complexity is another matter. I have not used those terms myself nor have I argued that Lelouch is particularly complex in the grand scheme of things. Nope, there are certainly many others who have similar or greater amounts of it...but then again, this is still the Code Geass forum or is it not?

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not to mention that lelouch was a prick. a very big one. why would anyone want to talk about him? selfish asshole really.
Well, let me put it this way...why would anyone want to talk about Shinji if he's a weak coward whose psychological issues reduce him to inactivity and subservience? Man, he's such a waste of time.

In addition, who said that selfish assholes and pricks can't be interesting? If they're given additional characteristics and enough screen time...sure, they certainly can be. Admittedly, a lot of that is still subjective at the end of the day.

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but wait, he is so complicated, there is so much left unclarified...shit...i'm gonna go to animesuki and post my brains out!!!
damn, i'm gonna get a bad rep for this post, ain't I? oh well, do as u please...
I'm not ashamed of my own actions, of course, but I'll let your own behavior speak for itself.
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Old 2011-01-24, 20:16   Link #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The existence of a huge gap between reality and fiction is clear.
not to many...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
Well, let me put it this way...why would anyone want to talk about Shinji if he's a weak coward whose psychological issues reduce him to inactivity and subservience? Man, he's such a waste of time.
i see what u did there...but really shinji is more realistic than lelouch.kill yourself? really? and make it look like an assasination? yeah...

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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
In addition, who said that selfish assholes and pricks can't be interesting? If they're given additional characteristics and enough screen time...sure, they certainly can be. Admittedly, a lot of that is still subjective at the end of the day.
everything is subjective...thats why i love psychology.


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I'm not ashamed of my own actions, of course, but I'll let your own behavior speak for itself.
i'm listening...but really u saying u're not ashamed means u have smth to be ashamed of. justify oneself by blaming another. i'm cool with that. not really offended.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:07   Link #306
Xander
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Originally Posted by idiffer View Post
not to many...

i see what u did there...but really shinji is more realistic than lelouch.kill yourself? really? and make it look like an assasination? yeah...
I don't think realism is too important or even necessary in the context of either anime as a whole...so why does it matter? After all, it doesn't seem to be what determines whether or not people love or hate them as characters.

The point is you don't like Lelouch because his personality or actions don't match your preferences, others don't like Shinji because his personality or actions don't match their preferences. They are both incredibly flawed individuals who could afford to be assisted by a psychologist or two because their thought processes aren't very healthy or constructive. Whether or not they're entirely realistic is up for debate...but in my opinion, I'd say that all fiction can definitely get away with resorting to exaggerated portrayals if it still makes for an interesting or entertaining watch.

Shinji is simply an exaggerated portrayal of character type A and Lelouch is one of character type B.

In fact, one might even argue that -this being the Philosophy thread after all- it's entirely possible to find them interesting subjects of study because of their own twisted ideas about themselves and about the world, even if they're not quite meant to be flawless ideal role models. What's more, it doesn't even need to be the kind of philosophy that would make absolute sense in the real world either. Sometimes it's better to just ask good questions even if the answers are not quite as good or, for that matter, happen to be disappointing (which, I might add, can more or less apply to both of the shows in question in spite of their numerous differences).

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i'm listening...but really u saying u're not ashamed means u have smth to be ashamed of. justify oneself by blaming another. i'm cool with that. not really offended.
Perhaps you would do well to stand in front of a mirror, take a look and apply this sort of logic to your own previous parting words...that is, at least if the resulting irony doesn't kill you in the process.

Last edited by Xander; 2011-01-24 at 21:17.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:11   Link #307
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Philosophy and Code Geass should not be in the same sentence.

No...just no.
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:23   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
I don't think realism is too important or even necessary in the context of either anime as a whole...but sure, why not? After all, realism alone doesn't seem to be what determines why people love or hate them as characters.

The point is you don't like Lelouch because his personality or actions don't match your preferences, others don't like Shinji because his personality or actions don't match their preferences. They are both incredibly flawed individuals who could afford to be assisted by a psychologist or two because their thought processes aren't very healthy or constructive. Whether or not they're entirely realistic is up for debate...but in my opinion, I'd say that all fiction can definitely get away with resorting to exaggerated portrayals if it still makes for an interesting or entertaining watch.

In fact, one might even argue that -this being the Philosophy thread after all- it's entirely possible to find them interesting subjects of study because of their own twisted ideas about themselves and about the world, even if they're not quite meant to be flawless ideal role models. What's more, it doesn't even need to be the kind of philosophy that would make absolute sense in the real world either.



Perhaps you would do well to stand in front of a mirror, take a look and apply this sort of logic to your own previous parting words...that is, at least if the resulting irony doesn't kill you in the process.
what logic? what parting words? (am i dying?) whatever u meant doesn't relieve u. what i said about "ashamed" is probably now all the more true.
realism IS important. tell me you NEVER saw a thread in which someone would say that an anime isn't realistic enough. i've seen many of those.
and philosophy is SUPPOSED to make sense...its there so u can make sense of the world around u.
and i dont know whats so interesting about a person whose actions are see through, well the reasons for them once u know his past. at least shinji had the porcupine dilemma to keep it real...
EDIT
but uhhh, i guess i'm bs'ing u. its not that i care that much about lelouch. i just wanted to chat really.
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c) Your mind is too narrow to embrace my genius, de geso.
d) I was accidentally dropped into a barrel of whiskey, so now I am constantly drunk.
e) Go home and die! Dattebayo!
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Old 2011-01-24, 21:57   Link #309
Xander
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Philosophy and Code Geass should not be in the same sentence.

No...just no.
I wouldn't have made a thread with this title myself, given the choice, because it does sound pretentious and it's technically inaccurate...but well, considering it's already here...why not? It's no better or worse as a concept than a thread on the mechanics, morality or history of Code Geass. All of those matters are, effectively, equally abstract and removed from reality.

None of them are real because the world of Code Geass obviously doesn't exist. In practice, talking about any of them is just as ridiculous and as useless as talking about philosophy. But then again, philosophy is all about abstract interpretations and theories that exist only in the minds of the thinker, not about any physical truths and scientific realities. Even if Code Geass never really intended to present a "new" way of looking at the world and our place in it, much less develop any formal theory, we can still think about the events of the story and the concepts it used to find a few philosophical implications and have discussions about them. Why? For no reason in particular other than vague intellectual curiosity and entertainment value. It's essentially a game for those who are bored enough.

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realism IS important. tell me you NEVER saw a thread in which someone would say that an anime isn't realistic enough. i've seen many of those.
and philosophy is SUPPOSED to make sense...its there so u can make sense of the world around u.
and i dont know whats so interesting about a person whose actions are see through, well the reasons for them once u know his past. at least shinji had the porcupine dilemma to keep it real...
Yes, but it's important for those who choose to make it so for any number of reasons. That is not an inherent requirement of any form of entertainment, visual or otherwise, about which there is universal and complete agreement.

As for philosophy...I'll just add that, as part of its own historical development, many old theories are regularly discarded, criticized and considered inferior by rival schools of thought. If they all made perfect sense and could be proven right, this would not be possible.

Like I indicated before, Shinji's a different kind of person and since this isn't the Lelouch thread...I'll stop there.
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Old 2011-01-24, 22:03   Link #310
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it isn't?
god, what have i been doing and WHERE?
too bad old shows aren't discarded as they should...
um...i have a really strong desire to say smth like - "lets take this outside...to the shinji discussion thread".
yeah well, i'm in a fun mood...
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a) I知 batshit insane or mentally challenged. Nyan!
b) Wasu~p?! *brofist*
c) Your mind is too narrow to embrace my genius, de geso.
d) I was accidentally dropped into a barrel of whiskey, so now I am constantly drunk.
e) Go home and die! Dattebayo!
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Old 2011-01-24, 23:33   Link #311
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Schneizel's idea was basically "if you leave people to themselves, they will only keep fighting and make things worse", which is what the damocles was suppose to prevent.
by actively inforcing his view of peace, he would not leave it to people to decide their own future, but rather maintain the status quo by force.

Lelouch's idea was basically "if you leave people to themselves, they will always keep struggling for a better future" which is why, in theory" zero requiem was about erasing the hate that results from a decade long war (started by his father) and focusing it on himself.
that way, the world can move on and people would make a better future.

personally, i think Lelouch is delusional, buy nevermind.
Yes, Lelouche is crazy like when he was playing chess with Mao in R1 if anybody still remembers, there's a 'scale' contraption connected to the bomb of his beloved sister Nunally. If he just put his hand on his side of the scale the bomb would go off !
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Old 2011-01-25, 00:08   Link #312
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Originally Posted by TheBlueWizard View Post
Yes, Lelouche is crazy like when he was playing chess with Mao in R1 if anybody still remembers, there's a 'scale' contraption connected to the bomb of his beloved sister Nunally. If he just put his hand on his side of the scale the bomb would go off !
and remember that fansub? the one that said someone made an illegal chess move? and it covered half the screen?
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My posts seem retarted? I invoke the freedomof choice upon thee to choose one of the below.
a) I知 batshit insane or mentally challenged. Nyan!
b) Wasu~p?! *brofist*
c) Your mind is too narrow to embrace my genius, de geso.
d) I was accidentally dropped into a barrel of whiskey, so now I am constantly drunk.
e) Go home and die! Dattebayo!
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Old 2011-01-25, 01:59   Link #313
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Yes, Lelouche is crazy like when he was playing chess with Mao in R1 if anybody still remembers, there's a 'scale' contraption connected to the bomb of his beloved sister Nunally. If he just put his hand on his side of the scale the bomb would go off !
I was totally thinking that exact same thing during that scene.
then again, when the guy you're up against can read minds...
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Old 2011-01-25, 02:23   Link #314
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I was totally thinking that exact same thing during that scene.
then again, when the guy you're up against can read minds...
Yeah. The end of that episode was pretty narmy. Mao: "Get your hands off me, father killer!" Suzaku: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! !!!"

Someone recently said it would be hilarious if he were around to screw with Oghi and Villetta. Can't argue there.
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Old 2011-01-25, 04:05   Link #315
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Yes, Lelouche is crazy like when he was playing chess with Mao in R1 if anybody still remembers, there's a 'scale' contraption connected to the bomb of his beloved sister Nunally. If he just put his hand on his side of the scale the bomb would go off !
I'm wondering why he didn't just reach over and push Mao's side of the scale down. Would have worked so much better....
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Old 2011-01-25, 04:09   Link #316
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He'd immediately predict him doing it by reading his thoughts.
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Old 2011-01-25, 04:14   Link #317
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I'm wondering why he didn't just reach over and push Mao's side of the scale down. Would have worked so much better....
As blade (edit: and azul) mentioned, Mao was a telepath. As such, the moment Lelouch decided to try something like this, Mao would have known and could try to preempt him by pushing the scale to make the bomb detonate. Even if Lelouch was quick enough, there was still the possibility that Mao was armed (which he was) and could then simply shoot Lelouch, before abandoning or outright killing Nunnally.

Beyond all this, Lelouch Geassed himself to act a certain way and forget his plan, so this may have also been a factor in his behavior.
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Old 2011-02-25, 13:55   Link #318
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Philosophy is more like human kind's gimmick to try and justify our actions through a series of complicated explanations. Does it make a difference to what we do even if we understand it? I don't think so. All we manage to produce are excuses utilizing these new found explanations to justify the actions which we're going to do anyway.

This is only my opinion.

Lelouch was bored. I think that mainly sums up his stimulus. didn't someone say before that great things come out of the mundane- or something complicated of the sort? The support lines for this anime are basically: selfishness, hate, denial. In reply to most of the arguments posed (...if you're angry now, then do remember this is my unimportant and insignificant opinion and is one of a million) - without arrogance, nothing would have been achieved. There is a need for these overwhelmingly bloated egos in this world in order to make it move. Although it's hard to say forwards or backwards.

Lelouch is also human. Mistakes are inevitable. It cannot be argued that he is irresponsible or delusional and things of the sort whilst claiming the evidence of such accusations are his mistakes. Then we might as well yell at ourselves whilst we stand on that almighty pedestal we've placed ourselves upon. He also has his own strange complexes which act as his own rules- having to save Nunally unconditionally, hell-bent on killing his father- but we all have those problems, don't we? He's only trying to do things as best as he can in his own way, limited by the barriers he'd placed around himself. But the result is there, no matter the reason. That alone is unquestionable. If it were you, would you have sacrificed yourself- even for your own purposes- for billions of people you know hate you down to your guts? He doesn't even expecting anything, any sort of recognition for his undeniable, ultimate sacrifice.

It may be my bias for twisted, intelligent young men who have issues, but I think that Lelouch should be someone whom people admire, appreciated and are grateful for, at the very least (speaking in regards to the citizens in the anime). He's not a perfect being, and we all know he's far from that. Being human, and also being scarred in his earlier years, he's a messed up being.

But he tries his best to do everything he can as he deems it should be done, keeping a grip of his ultimate goal at all times- making a better world. And he succeeded. For any who despise Lelouch- ask yourselves this. Even if you were bored, even if you had nothing to live for except a mundane future- would you have done what Lelouch had done, given up just one thing Lelouch had given up?

Anyhow. If it weren't like this- then Code Geass wouldn't have been such an award winning anime, would it?
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Old 2011-02-25, 14:05   Link #319
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But he tries his best to do everything he can as he deems it should be done, keeping a grip of his ultimate goal at all times- making a better world. And he succeeded. For any who despise Lelouch- ask yourselves this. Even if you were bored, even if you had nothing to live for except a mundane future- would you have done what Lelouch had done, given up just one thing Lelouch had given up?
Interesting, but when was Lelouch ever shown to be so terribly bored except perhaps when he was without his memories? I'd say the guy had enough to worry about to keep him busy, starting with the fact that he and his sister could be found and forced to return to Britannia any time.
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Old 2011-02-26, 04:51   Link #320
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Philosophy and Code Geass should not be in the same sentence.

No...just no.
You said it man
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