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Old 2008-12-26, 20:04   Link #161
Dream_Traveller
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But Lelouch didn't exactly know that Nina had developed it for that purpose, did he?
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Old 2008-12-26, 20:12   Link #162
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Aside from that, Nina said she was trying to find herself.
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Old 2008-12-26, 20:34   Link #163
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
Lelouch also thought that Nina, a person that designed the FLEIJA to commit Genocide on the Japanese and only felt sad because it was used on caucasians instead a "good person".
I thought so, too.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Aside from that, Nina said she was trying to find herself.
*nods her head*
And before someone asks... no, that's not an excuse.
But one of the reasons why I completely agree with Lelouch on this.
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Old 2008-12-26, 21:17   Link #164
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Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller View Post
But Lelouch didn't exactly know that Nina had developed it for that purpose, did he?
So why the hell would a person develop a bomb and have it sent to Japan? It sure wouldn't be something positive.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Aside from that, Nina said she was trying to find herself.

So that somehow excuses the whole genocide thing?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I thought so, too.



*nods her head*
And before someone asks... no, that's not an excuse.
But one of the reasons why I completely agree with Lelouch on this.
She tried to commit Genocide and only felt bad because she killed Britannians. If the bomb went off in Japanese ghetto she sure as hell wouldn't feel bad.

I mean she's not Hitler but if your idea of a good person is "not Hitler" than you have a low expectations.
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Old 2008-12-26, 21:22   Link #165
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...I won't bother repeating evidence that she felt wrong about killing Japanese people like I have done in the past, because you won't listen.
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Old 2008-12-26, 21:23   Link #166
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A LOT of people did not deserve the future they got in the ending partly because they did not fight for that future but instead tried to screw everything committing atrocities. But oh well, what can you do?
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Old 2008-12-26, 21:36   Link #167
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
A LOT of people did not deserve the future they got in the ending partly because they did not fight for that future but instead tried to screw everything committing atrocities. But oh well, what can you do?
Bitch about it, apparently. Charred Knight seems to be doing quite a good job at that.
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Old 2008-12-27, 15:03   Link #168
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
So that somehow excuses the whole genocide thing?
What I meant was her reason for working with Lelouch.
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Old 2008-12-27, 16:02   Link #169
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Originally Posted by Charred Knight View Post
She tried to commit Genocide and only felt bad because she killed Britannians. If the bomb went off in Japanese ghetto she sure as hell wouldn't feel bad.
I disagree.
And even if that was true... it's not about why she started to see the error of her ways. To me - and probably also to Lelouch - it only matters that she eventually did.
As always, I I really don't see the point in killing someone who changed and might even have become a better person than most just because of their past sins.

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I mean she's not Hitler but if your idea of a good person is "not Hitler" than you have a low expectations.
Hu?
Did I ever compare any of the characters to Hitler or claim that Nina was a "good person"?
I only now mentioned that she might have become a better person than most by the end of the series, but everything else is your interpretation, at best.
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Old 2008-12-27, 17:14   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I disagree.
And even if that was true... it's not about why she started to see the error of her ways. To me - and probably also to Lelouch - it only matters that she eventually did.
As always, I I really don't see the point in killing someone who changed and might even have become a better person than most just because of their past sins.
Depending on the sins though. It is not fair to give an equal free pass to everyone. Sure, redemption is good but sometimes, you have to wonder.
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Old 2008-12-27, 20:05   Link #171
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Depending on the sins though. It is not fair to give an equal free pass to everyone. Sure, redemption is good but sometimes, you have to wonder.
*shrugs*
A matter of opinion.
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Old 2008-12-27, 20:07   Link #172
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*shrugs*
A matter of opinion.
Are you kidding me here? You would give the same free pass to a rapist and a thief? Please.
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Old 2008-12-27, 20:15   Link #173
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Are you kidding me here? You would give the same free pass to a rapist and a thief? Please.
Let's stay on topic here - real life examples and controversial opinions usually don't mix very well.
But yes, I would give the same "free pass" to Nina and... errr... an average Britannian civilian.
Why not?
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Old 2008-12-27, 20:32   Link #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Let's stay on topic here - real life examples and controversial opinions usually don't mix very well.
But yes, I would give the same "free pass" to Nina and... errr... an average Britannian civilian.
Why not?
And this is the point. What is being discussed here is not examples from real life, it is that the atrocities/sins people committed are not entitled to the same judgment field.
Some things are still absolute, no matter how you bend them. You can't point to Nina and say she is the same as an average Britania civilian. The fact she comprehended the shit she did, is for her own sake and for her own redemption.
This does not apply to the environment around her. The whole Lelouch-said-Nina-good scene, does not make Nina someone that is ok with a free pass paper.
Lelouch just CAN'T judge people, he has not right, when he has committed same and worse crimes. This was more of a moment of him acknowledging her help and getting past her hatred for him to co-operate with him for a greater "good" if you can call it like this. //which pretty much she started but let's not go there as well.
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Old 2008-12-27, 20:58   Link #175
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Originally Posted by incorrupts View Post
And this is the point. What is being discussed here is not examples from real life, it is that the atrocities/sins people committed are not entitled to the same judgment field.
I don't disagree with that.

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Some things are still absolute, no matter how you bend them. You can't point to Nina and say she is the same as an average Britania civilian.
I never said they were the same - just that I think that, by the end of the show, they were both equally "worth saving".

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The fact she comprehended the shit she did, is for her own sake and for her own redemption.
This does not apply to the environment around her.
Of course you can't expect the families of the people she killed to forgive her.
But everything else is a matter of opinion.

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The whole Lelouch-said-Nina-good scene, does not make Nina someone that is ok with a free pass paper.
Then how would you describe the philosophy of Code Geass in this context?
As I see it, the fact that Nina lived in the end and her scene with Lelouch support my interpretation - and that's what I was talking about when I brought up Lelouch's opinion of her.
I, personally, have no problem disageeing with Lelouch if I feel that he's wrong about something. By the end of the anime, however, I only disagreed with the notion that he deserved punishment.

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Lelouch just CAN'T judge people, he has not right, when he has committed same and worse crimes.
Lelouch would probably agree with that.
But that doesn't necessarily make his views wrong.

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This was more of a moment of him acknowledging her help and getting past her hatred for him to co-operate with him for a greater "good" if you can call it like this. //which pretty much she started but let's not go there as well.
Once again, interpretations.
To me, it seemed pretty clear that Lelouch liked and even respected the person Nina had become, and that he deemed everyone "worth saving".
And that is definitely a part of the philosophy of Code Geass for me.
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Old 2008-12-27, 21:11   Link #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I don't disagree with that.



I never said they were the same - just that I think that, by the end of the show, they were both equally "worth saving".
Ahem, you did say that. You just said now the "worth-saving" line.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Of course you can't expect the families of the people she killed to forgive her.
But everything else is a matter of opinion.

Of course the people that got in the mess of her own stupid actions are the one that should "judge" her first. But for the life of me, beats me who anyone else would see this as a "meh, ok" action.



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Then how would you describe the philosophy of Code Geass in this context?

Eh? You think the philosophy of Geass is that everyone should get a free pass in the end because he is so called of "worth-saving"?
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Old 2008-12-27, 21:32   Link #177
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Ahem, you did say that. You just said now the "worth-saving" line.
Uhm... no.
I said I would give them the same "free pass".
But maybe I should have asked you how you define "free pass" first. What I basically meant is that I don't see any need for punishment where it wouldn't do any good.

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Of course the people that got in the mess of her own stupid actions are the one that should "judge" her first.
If you let the victim's family judge the murderer, it's not justice but revenge.
Or at least, that's how I see it.

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But for the life of me, beats me who anyone else would see this as a "meh, ok" action.
"Meh, ok"?
I'm only saying that if one wants to punish Nina for the Fleya incident, they would need to do it before it actually happened - because after that, Nina realized that she had done something horrible, and she probably couldn't have felt any worse about it.
In my opinion, punishing her simply wouldn't have served any purpose.

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Eh? You think the philosophy of Geass is that everyone should get a free pass in the end because he is so called of "worth-saving"?
Not quite.
I think that the philosophy of Code Geass is that everyone is striving for happiness - that all people are grey and that, given the right circumstances, they might change completely... be it for the better or the worse.
After that, they might be better off dead, need someone to give them a push in the right direction, or a "free pass" - depending on what they have become and why (and how likely it is that it will be permanent).
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Old 2008-12-27, 21:44   Link #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Uhm... no.
I said I would give them the same "free pass".
But maybe I should have asked you how you define "free pass" first. What I basically meant is that I don't see any need for punishment where it wouldn't do any good.



If you let the victim's family judge the murderer, it's not justice but revenge.
Or at least, that's how I see it.



"Meh, ok"?
I'm only saying that if one wants to punish Nina for the Fleya incident, they would need to do it before it actually happened - because after that, Nina realized that she had done something horrible, and she probably couldn't have felt any worse about it.
In my opinion, punishing her simply wouldn't have served any purpose.



Not quite.
I think that the philosophy of Code Geass is that everyone is striving for happiness - that all people are grey and that, given the right circumstances, they might change completely... be it for the better or the worse.
After that, they might be better off dead, need someone to give them a push in the right direction, or a "free pass" - depending on what they have become and why (and how likely it is that it will be permanent).
This only applies to Nina in your mind cause if you set it as a general example, then this pretty much sets everyone wild-free to do anything he wants.

All people are "grey'? Please, stop with this "grey" line. It is true that sometimes people do not actually want to cause bad things, but they do. And for this, there needs to be punishment. If one does not feel the need to get "punished", in whatever that form is, then he is amoral. Redemption and remorse, only comes when you realize that you have to be punished. Otherwise, it is all preach.

And not everyone strive for happiness in Geass. For example, the main chara, strive for destroying something in the beginning, while the antagonist strive for a death to get him out of his burden. And the list goes on and on.
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Old 2008-12-27, 21:51   Link #179
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Uhm... no.
I said I would give them the same "free pass".
But maybe I should have asked you how you define "free pass" first. What I basically meant is that I don't see any need for punishment where it wouldn't do any good.
How would it not do good here? One person commited a vile crime, or acted on a vilinous desire to commit Genocide, the result of her actions are the deaths of countless innocent people. You can't compare her to others, because others have not done commited the crime. You cannot just take away the crime and treat everyone equally, different crimes call for different measures of discipline.

If you give her a free pass, then you have to give everyone a free pass. You cannot excuse her by the idea that "she learned her lesson". You don't know if she did. You'd also have to give everyone else who "learned their lesson" a free pass, but how can you fairly judge such an abstract concept.


Quote:
If you let the victim's family judge the murderer, it's not justice but revenge.
Or at least, that's how I see it.
You let the system judge her, but by any realistic system that isn't biased against a side, would convict her to the same as the families.

Quote:
"Meh, ok"?
I'm only saying that if one wants to punish Nina for the Fleya incident, they would need to do it before it actually happened - because after that, Nina realized that she had done something horrible, and she probably couldn't have felt any worse about it.
In my opinion, punishing her simply wouldn't have served any purpose.
I does not matter what she realized, she still commited the act. If I murder someone, only to then realize how wrong I was, would you give me a fair pass? I understand that this is a real world example but it is appropriate in this context... and now that I look at it, I really was in the wrong for what I said to someone else.

Quote:
Not quite.
I think that the philosophy of Code Geass is that everyone is striving for happiness - that all people are grey and that, given the right circumstances, they might change completely... be it for the better or the worse.
After that, they might be better off dead, need someone to give them a push in the right direction, or a "free pass" - depending on what they have become and why (and how likely it is that it will be permanent).
That is a poor philosophy because people don't just "turn a new leaf of goodness". Viletta never changed through Code Geass, she was and ended, as being a coniving schemer who ruined two peoples lives for her own self fulfillment. She did not change, and she is an example of a person who did not deserve what they were given.

Nina is more arguable, but she still deserves punishment for her actions. They cannot, or more should not, just be forgiven. That opens up a pandora's box for the world of law. And in reality, she did not learn anything. She never showed that she got past her hatred for the Japanese. She never showed that she moved past her fixation on the dead.
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Old 2008-12-27, 22:26   Link #180
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And not everyone strive for happiness in Geass. For example, the main chara, strive for destroying something in the beginning, while the antagonist strive for a death to get him out of his burden. And the list goes on and on.
Wrong. He wanted a peaceful world for Nunnally. He wanted to live happily with her without the fear they will be used again. And to do that, he had to destroy something. He didn't strive to destroy for no reason. If destroying Britannia wasn't needed at the beginning, he wouldn't have done that. Your just putting it into simpler, more basic terms that are also vague.
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