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Old 2013-03-12, 03:12   Link #10021
Ynot
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Join Date: Jun 2010
I agree the arrow on Mengrozes hand does look different from the other stigmata's. That's why at first I thought the patient whom Mengroze was treating was Arclight who had his metal parts around his heart heated which in turn gave Mengroze's burn mark. But there's quite a bit of variation among the other stigmata's so I'm not sure what to think of it.

It really needs more than what we currently see when it's supposed to represent a hand with 6 fingers. However the fourth wave went through some changes too. When Saten is drawing it, it looks like a ribcage, but when we saw it used by Saten and Arclight it's appearance didn't look anything like a ribcage. The same could be going on for the source of the arrow burn mark if it is a stigmata.
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Old 2013-03-12, 12:21   Link #10022
Solace
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I'm thinking that Imai isn't telling us the whole story here. There's some inconsistencies, and although you could chalk them up to the influence of time (like art differences), the plot itself has some odd pieces. But I'll wait one more chapter to see if there's more plot dump, before I really start to get bothered enough to speculate.

I'm pretty sure Cruz has some kind of Stigmata though. I was combing through the pages and noticed this:

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Note the sound effect, which is "warp". The art shows the power twisting around his hand. This matches up with the burn mark showing an arrow twisting around.

Which still reminds me of this:

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Old 2013-03-13, 14:36   Link #10023
Ynot
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Am I the only one who can't see all of the pics in Solace's post above? Just the one which says "Huh? Read the atmosphere!" is visible to me.
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:46   Link #10024
Solace
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They're loading from my album on the site. I've seen this happen before, dunno what causes it. I can see them just fine though. Let me see what I can do about that.

Edit: Uploaded them to imgur. Should work now.
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Old 2013-03-13, 23:42   Link #10025
Avvesione
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
They're loading from my album on the site. I've seen this happen before, dunno what causes it. I can see them just fine though. Let me see what I can do about that.

Edit: Uploaded them to imgur. Should work now.
Thanks. They weren't working earlier today when I checked but I can see them now. And you make a keen observation there with the sound effects and the directions of the blood.

-----

Also, while looking over 105, I realized something now after reading 110 that didn't occur to me back then. When you look at Arclight emerging from the cocoon, you see the Doppelganger Stigmata on his left and right thighs. Then after getting Magnetism and Gravitation, they change (although he's in that converted, Angel-state).

I wonder if this is going into Saten's explanation about how Stigmata might not have any assigned place or that Arclight was restructured to make sure the Stigmata appeared in the wrong places (except for his right arm, go figure), but it seems odd that one Stigmata disappears in favor of another on one spot.

And if that's the case, maybe it was something like Doppelganger that caused the burn on Mengroze's hand. If that's the case, then I have a new theory: Mengroze operated on Blade (with his Eir System) to save Eve and got the burn when the Doppelganger stigmata appeared/disappearing on his body. It was also at that time when Blade met Mengroze which is why he appeared in the jumbled memories of the Memory World arc.
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Old 2013-03-14, 03:38   Link #10026
Ynot
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@Solace They're working fine now.

@Avvesione The fact that the doppleganger stigmata appeared on Arclight's thighs first and later the stigmata for magnetism and gravity is what made me think Saten might have purposely had his fourth wave stigmata appear on his arm. Perhaps just another way to make sure Arclight wouldn't accidentily get the positions of the stigmata right.

Even if you can't consciously "will" the stigmata in the right place there might be other possibilities(like the order in which you absorb them) to influence the location of their appearance. The way Arclight had his other stigmata's appear(magnetism&gravity) where at first doppleganger was, strongly suggests there's more to it than just being stuck with how you were created. Unless of course Imai Kami made a mistake.

Btw. I don't think Saten is necessarily saying Arclight was restructured to make sure the Stigmata appeared in the wrong places. When I read the raw it feels more like Saten is talking about how Arclight's body is right now(with the stigmata in the wrong place) like a mannequin as opposed to an earlier moment.
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Old 2013-03-14, 08:01   Link #10027
K. Shiruto
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It's probably Arclight who changes places of his Stigmata. Back when he killed Arca, the mark of her fragment appeared on Arclight's hand. The next time we see him the Stigmata is in the wrist. So we can deduct Arclight moved each mark as he pleased.

Of course, that was a huge mistake for his part. And also, the lines containing the arrangement of the Stigmata were deleted.

But Saten did more than this. The Stigmata that belongs to the Fourth Wave is, coincidentally or not, the only one that changed its shape completely.

Whether the Fourth Wave is a fragment created for him or if he learned it from another needless is unknown.
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Old 2013-03-15, 14:55   Link #10028
K. Shiruto
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Only four more days, though I wish it gets released earlier than usual.

Are you all ready?
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Old 2013-03-15, 17:17   Link #10029
Soji
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Solace@ I did not notice that.(the *sfx warp*)...though i wonder where the energy ends ,I mean the energy/power from the attack that he nullifies ,because I don't buy that he just make them nothing / nullifies them.

Kurusu-Shirudo@ I think we all ready for the next ch and what Saten will do and say.
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Old 2013-03-15, 19:32   Link #10030
Kurohane
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^ I considered the warping of the Agnishiwattas before. I came up with a theory that Cruz had the original Fouth Wave. Since Saten could seem to do multiple abilities before we found out he was an Adam series, I figured the Fouth Wave he has was learned from another needless. It would explan Cruz surviving Arclight's Agnishiwattas, and later freeing himself. Also, as Soji said, the energy couldn't have just disapeared after Cruz blocked it. The energy had to be transfered somewhere else. As for repelling Psychokenesis, we know when molecules vibrate, they create heat. Cruz could have been absorbing the fast particles in motion of Riru using her Psychokenesis. It explains how Riru could get Eve and Disk behind him, but not him. Also, it explains how Blade knows the Fourth Wave now.

However, the problems start with the eyes clone Arclight saw. We don't know if that's part of the ability or not, and if so, how does it relate to it? If Saten had Cruz abilities all along, I don't see a reason for all the trouble of hiding him away, unless there's more about Cruz. Also, there's the point of why Disk is keeping it secret and pretending its some other ability, so I never really shared it up until now.
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Old 2013-03-15, 23:41   Link #10031
Avvesione
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
^ I considered the warping of the Agnishiwattas before. I came up with a theory that Cruz had the original Fouth Wave. Since Saten could seem to do multiple abilities before we found out he was an Adam series, I figured the Fouth Wave he has was learned from another needless. It would explan Cruz surviving Arclight's Agnishiwattas, and later freeing himself. Also, as Soji said, the energy couldn't have just disapeared after Cruz blocked it. The energy had to be transfered somewhere else. As for repelling Psychokenesis, We know when molecules vibrate, they create heat. Cruz could have been absorbing the fast particles in motion of Riru using her Psychokenesis. It explains how Riru could get Eve and Disk behind him, but not him. Also, it explains how Blade knows the Fourth Wave now.

However, the problems start with the eyes clone Arclight saw. We don't know if that's part of the ability or not, and if so, how does it relate to it? If Saten had Cruz abilities all along, I don't see a reason for all the trouble of hiding him away, unless there's more about Cruz. Also, there's the point of why Disk is keeping it secret and pretending its some other ability, so I never really shared it up until now.
As much as I'd love the Fourth Wave to be Cruz's fragment, it doesn't really fit well with him stopping Riru's Psychokinesis. That and Ishiyama was using Cruz's Shield of Aegis against Seth in the Lab.

But to go back to the original question about where the energy goes, I have no idea how the fragment works or where the attacks go.
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Old 2013-03-16, 01:10   Link #10032
Kurohane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avvesione View Post
As much as I'd love the Fourth Wave to be Cruz's fragment, it doesn't really fit well with him stopping Riru's Psychokinesis. That and Ishiyama was using Cruz's Shield of Aegis against Seth in the Lab.

But to go back to the original question about where the energy goes, I have no idea how the fragment works or where the attacks go.
What I believe is Shield of Aegis isn't a real fragment, but Disk had to come up with something on the spot, and said it neutalizes all attacks after Cruz blocked the Agnishiwattas, but we already know that's not true, since a missle went past him. With this explanation, I think what would happen if it was a water or earth attack; Kushinashi's fragrance or Rin's Bionic Compressor. Would Cruz's hand be able to absorb the impact like before.

I do have my doubts about Cruz having the Fourth Wave, as I said it was a theory I thought up at one time when linking events and data. One problem I didn't think of before is the reflection of Rain maker. Another is Cruz shielding young Blade from Strom's Ice, though that could be shoved to Cruz's incredible endurance, which has been proven on several occasions.
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Old 2013-03-16, 05:36   Link #10033
Avvesione
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
What I believe is Shield of Aegis isn't a real fragment, but Disk had to come up with something on the spot, and said it neutalizes all attacks after Cruz blocked the Agnishiwattas, but we already know that's not true, since a missle went past him. With this explanation, I think what would happen if it was a water or earth attack; Kushinashi's fragrance or Rin's Bionic Compressor. Would Cruz's hand be able to absorb the impact like before.
I think Shield of Aegis blocks/neutralizes any attack from a Fragment, such as Agnishwattas, Psychokinesis, Rain Maker or any other. What it doesn't stop are other physical attacks that aren't necessarily derived from Fragments, such as the missile (which you noted) or when Riru threw Eve and Disk into Cruz.

I'm not sure how well Shield of Aegis would do against Kuchinashi's Fragrance or Rin's Bionic Compressor but I'd imagine that it'd have some minor effect. I'm not sure what would happen against Setsuna's Speed or Mio's Power though.
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Old 2013-03-16, 06:12   Link #10034
Ynot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soji View Post
..though i wonder where the energy ends ,I mean the energy/power from the attack that he nullifies ,because I don't buy that he just make them nothing / nullifies them.
I always thought of it as a matter of redirection/deflecting the energy to the side just like a regular shield would do. When Yamada awakened to his power Arclight said, "The flames were blown away". When Yamada was fired upon by Hatfield with his waterbeam it bounced off Yamada. To me in general it looks like Yamada's direct environment is torn up when he defends himself against an attack. Look at the first time Yamada consciously uses his shield of Aegis, the ground on which he stands gets pulverized. So it's my guess the energy bounces off and wrecks whatever it comes into contact with afterwards. When Yamada got hurt while using his shield it was his side which got hurt so that could have slipped past his defenses.

Of course there are a couple of oddities, like when Aruka was stopped when she tried to kill Cruz in the third shelter. That certainly didnīt look like a shield was being used. It was said it wasnīt magnetism or gravity or psychokinesis, but who knows, maybe ANn helped out at that time somehow.

Ps. A completely unfounded idea I had yesterday....Mizuha = the black madam. Mizuha didn't look too old in the one picture we have of her so if you add 16 years and wonder how the hell she was able to find a box in such a big explosion site(so I'm guessing she had a fragment to aid her) + she's helping out an Adam later on....you still have absolutely no good reason for this theory, lol.
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Old 2013-03-16, 06:46   Link #10035
DarkSkiper
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Well, Cruz's fragment looks more then a mere shield. If it was a shield it would simply block/deflect attacks, not blow them away and out right stop his attacker.

I still think it's a power that has something to do with space/time. Would explain why Aruka was stopped in the middle of attacking.
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Old 2013-03-16, 07:16   Link #10036
Sayo A.
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Some random responses to the current topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Note the sound effect, which is "warp". The art shows the power twisting around his hand. This matches up with the burn mark showing an arrow twisting around.
I think your interpretation of what the art shows is somewhat... speculative. You see it "twisting around", I see it "radiating outward". As for that sound effect, the translator chose to represent it as "warp", but it doesn't actually mean that. It could just as easily be translated as something like "byomp" or "squoing". And I challenge anyone to come up with a theory based on "squoing"...

Quote:
Which still reminds me of this:

No, no, no. It's the browser's "reload current page" button.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avvesione View Post
As much as I'd love the Fourth Wave to be Cruz's fragment, it doesn't really fit well with him stopping Riru's Psychokinesis. That and Ishiyama was using Cruz's Shield of Aegis against Seth in the Lab.
Ishiyama was using Shield of Aegis? I must have missed that part...

Quote:
But to go back to the original question about where the energy goes, I have no idea how the fragment works or where the attacks go.
If a fragment like Agnishwattas can create energy out of nothing, then why shouldn't Shield of Aegis be able to turn that energy back into nothing? Forget the laws of physics and don't worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I came up with a theory that Cruz had the original Fouth Wave. Since Saten could seem to do multiple abilities before we found out he was an Adam series, I figured the Fouth Wave he has was learned from another needless.
It's quite ironic that Saten possessed multiple fragments all along, yet back in the Third Shelter he was using just one but in different ways, so as to give the impression that he had several... Anyway, I agree that Saten would have had to learn the Fourth Wave from someone else, but that person wasn't Cruz, and is probably long dead. For obvious reasons.
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Old 2013-03-16, 08:20   Link #10037
Ynot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayo A. View Post
Ishiyama was using Shield of Aegis? I must have missed that part...
It looks like Shield of Aegis and whatever Ishiyama was doing have strong similarities and might be the same. But yeah, we can't just take it as a fact.

Ishiyama was messing with gravity before Arclight had the gravity stigmata. In fact, he was standing on the wall when Arclight entered the room so whatever Ishiyama was doing it wasn't with the same fragment as Seto had(or Arclight would already have it's stigmata). Maybe the same thing is going on when Ishiyama deflects Seto's attack, using a fragment similar, but not the same as Shield of Aegis. Psychokinesis and Magnetic world could be mistaken for each other too in some cases as long as the user doesn't shout out the attack's name.
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Old 2013-03-16, 09:01   Link #10038
Noda
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I was thinking this morning about how both Cruz and Cain have decidedly 'defensive' powers. I was also thinking about how, like Wind, Voice is a fragment ability Blade should never learn. 'Naked..with socks!!'

If and when Needless 2.0 gets serialized, it's my hope that it's somehow a weekly, as well. Know it isn't likely, but this month to month wait is torture. Needless is the only manga I have been following for the past two years or so, being a monthly makes it even more brutal.
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Old 2013-03-16, 10:15   Link #10039
thor94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avvesione View Post
As much as I'd love the Fourth Wave to be Cruz's fragment, it doesn't really fit well with him stopping Riru's Psychokinesis. That and Ishiyama was using Cruz's Shield of Aegis against Seth in the Lab.

But to go back to the original question about where the energy goes, I have no idea how the fragment works or where the attacks go.
It's nullified, same has touma "imagine breaker" power in to aru majutsu no index.
The powers are exactly similar:
-nullification of supernatural power
-only left hand can stop the attack and not the other body parts.
-ineffective against physical, weaponry and collateral attacks
-attract misfortune (cruz is really unlucky since the beginning)

Cruz have not four waves or Agnishwattas, otherwise he could stop testament missiles.
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Old 2013-03-16, 11:59   Link #10040
Kurohane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot View Post
I always thought of it as a matter of redirection/deflecting the energy to the side just like a regular shield would do. When Yamada awakened to his power Arclight said, "The flames were blown away". When Yamada was fired upon by Hatfield with his waterbeam it bounced off Yamada. To me in general it looks like Yamada's direct environment is torn up when he defends himself against an attack. Look at the first time Yamada consciously uses his shield of Aegis, the ground on which he stands gets pulverized. So it's my guess the energy bounces off and wrecks whatever it comes into contact with afterwards. When Yamada got hurt while using his shield it was his side which got hurt so that could have slipped past his defenses.

Of course there are a couple of oddities, like when Aruka was stopped when she tried to kill Cruz in the third shelter. That certainly didnīt look like a shield was being used. It was said it wasnīt magnetism or gravity or psychokinesis, but who knows, maybe ANn helped out at that time somehow.

Ps. A completely unfounded idea I had yesterday....Mizuha = the black madam. Mizuha didn't look too old in the one picture we have of her so if you add 16 years and wonder how the hell she was able to find a box in such a big explosion site(so I'm guessing she had a fragment to aid her) + she's helping out an Adam later on....you still have absolutely no good reason for this theory, lol.
Actually, what caused the hit on his side was a missle that flew at him not the Agnishiwattas. Mizuha being the black madam sounds interesting and plausible. No one said she died, and we have no idea what happened to her after Zakat became the leader. How did he become the leader at all, and why? Defintely, something to look out for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avvesione View Post
I think Shield of Aegis blocks/neutralizes any attack from a Fragment, such as Agnishwattas, Psychokinesis, Rain Maker or any other. What it doesn't stop are other physical attacks that aren't necessarily derived from Fragments, such as the missile (which you noted) or when Riru threw Eve and Disk into Cruz.

I'm not sure how well Shield of Aegis would do against Kuchinashi's Fragrance or Rin's Bionic Compressor but I'd imagine that it'd have some minor effect. I'm not sure what would happen against Setsuna's Speed or Mio's Power though.
Yeah, I was commoing up with scenarios on how Shield of Aegis would work in those situations. I doubt it could do anything against Speed and Power because they only augment the users' own physical abilities. Kushinshi's Fragrence probably wouldn't be repelled becuase its not an offensive fragment. I would think Cruz would just as easily be pushed back by Bionic Compressor hand up or not. He may be able to resist an area of pressure put up around him though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayo A. View Post
If a fragment like Agnishwattas can create energy out of nothing, then why shouldn't Shield of Aegis be able to turn that energy back into nothing? Forget the laws of physics and don't worry about it.

It's quite ironic that Saten possessed multiple fragments all along, yet back in the Third Shelter he was using just one but in different ways, so as to give the impression that he had several... Anyway, I agree that Saten would have had to learn the Fourth Wave from someone else, but that person wasn't Cruz, and is probably long dead. For obvious reasons.
The heat from Agnishiwattas comes from the rapid vibration of molecules that can't be seen through the eyes. The energy doesn't come from nothing. As science is a key exposition in this manga, energy should follow the same principles as real life.

Yeah, Saten couldn't exactly have the needless going around using the same fragment he had. It raise unwanted questions and suspicions.
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