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Old 2009-11-22, 14:50   Link #1201
shadowii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
One of Juda's main weakness was the money. He was assigned among the apostoles as the accountant and kept all the money he collected inside an ark. But the most interesting detail is the following: Judas didn't betray Christ for the money but because he thought Christ failed him. And then Satan entered into him and called him to do it.

This is like when Aruka justified her hatred towards Cruz because he couldn't do anything by himself and always relied on her.

Another detail is why Christ, despite he knew Judas would betray him, allowed that to happen.

This is like when Cruz despite seeing the truth with his own eyes, refused to believe her sister betrayed the resistance.
Good point but Cruz did not know what his sister was and somehow if he did i doubt he would have let Aruka set up the resistance.

Okay guys, nearly a month till next chapter (and whether Cruz is second christ or not is not something all the people on this forum are going to agree on no matter how much we shout reasons at each other)

lets just agree on the powers Cruz has now that are known: his list of fake needless skills.

Intelligence (detective):very smart kid can figure out things from scratch
stability: one of the most normal and sane characters in the entire needless universe
feminine beauty: can easily pass for a girl
Escape: fast of foot
Assistant: fast and good with Coffee
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Old 2009-11-22, 14:54   Link #1202
Ca12nag3
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Its all not that easy lol. A lot of terms get mixed up in this.

Aruka plays 2 roles here. Shes the older sister and shes a traitor/betrayer in general.
As for her name it might be seen as Ark (Japanese doesnt suport the word ark so closest you get would be A-ru-ka. Aruka!
Now the ark of the covenant is what i believe is symbolized in her, As Cruz would symbolize the new covenant (that of the Cross) So he in turn would be the 3rd (if taken that way)
Somehow they got to do with the entire God-Son of God thing. Its not clear what his sisters role is in it.
Tho it was the Jewish people or so to say Jewish religious people that first hunted down those of the new faith --> that of the cross, whilst they believed in the covenant of the ark as the most holy thing.
The Ark holds the most treasured artifacts for jewish religion (as well as christians btw) the 10 commandments and the staff of Mozes. So actualy Aruka symbolizes the old way, Cruz would symbolize the new way.
It goes to far to literaly take it to judas and make it more then it is. Id say both symbolize 2 movements from over 2000 years ago.
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Old 2009-11-22, 14:56   Link #1203
Alpha Knight
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Let's add another biblical reference:

http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/re...1?t=1258919458

http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/re...2?t=1258919480

With Aruka, that makes 12, but someone is left. Guess who?
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Old 2009-11-22, 14:57   Link #1204
shadowii
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Originally Posted by Ca12nag3 View Post
Its all not that easy lol. A lot of terms get mixed up in this.

Aruka plays 2 roles here. Shes the older sister and shes a traitor/betrayer in general.
As for her name it might be seen as Ark (Japanese doesnt suport the word ark so closest you get would be A-ru-ka. Aruka!
Now the ark of the covenant is what i believe is symbolized in her, As Cruz would symbolize the new covenant (that of the Cross) So he in turn would be the 3rd (if taken that way)
Somehow they got to do with the entire God-Son of God thing. Its not clear what his sisters role is in it.
Tho it was the Jewish people or so to say Jewish religious people that first hunted down those of the new faith --> that of the cross, whilst they believed in the covenant of the ark as the most holy thing.
The Ark holds the most treasured artifacts for jewish religion (as well as christians btw) the 10 commandments and the staff of Mozes. So actualy Aruka symbolizes the old way, Cruz would symbolize the new way.
It goes to far to literaly take it to judas and make it more then it is. Id say both symbolize 2 movements from over 2000 years ago.
I think your getting a little too symbolic for this manga
aruka's anme has also been translated as arca which is spanish for ark
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Old 2009-11-22, 14:57   Link #1205
Sekirei07
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But Cruz did not know that Aruka had betrayed him until moments before he was killed.

But the thing is how has Cruz been made into the next Christ. Christ as it is known is not the surname of Jesus, who was actually known as Jesus of Nazareth.

Its a title, known as "The Anointed One". Using it this way we can see how The Second was known as Second Christ because the people "anointed" him due to his power and miracles.

Its just that when its put this way as the spanish word for Cruz you get

Cruz = Cross
Shild = Shield
Blade = Sword

These are all fairly important symbols in the bible. But do you really not think that the word Cruz atleast is spanish for Cross even if its not used for this character?

If you combine Blade and Teruyama you get a flaming sword, which is the sword that blocks the entrance to the garden of Eden.

Blades lust for little girls, is like the temptation of the forbidden fruit. Because it is a fairly taboo thing to do in all cultures.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:00   Link #1206
shadowii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
Let's add another biblical reference:

http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/re...1?t=1258919458

http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/re...2?t=1258919480

With Aruka, that makes 12, but someone is left. Guess who?
Uh kurusu, with aruka its only nine, and these guys did die in a few pages i dont think its wise to reference them.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:00   Link #1207
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^How many times we need to understand that not everything in Needless is as it's exactly told in the bible?

I forgot to add the left ones.

Though we know the true 12 apostoles will be characters that won't die in just a few pages.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:04   Link #1208
shadowii
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Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
^How many times we need to understand that not everything in Needless is as it's exactly told in the bible?
^ still not twelve and Cruz was the teams errend boy not leader if anything hes the one whose lived on to uphold their ideas (before the list revealed a whole bunch more people i thought Cruz was now the entire blackspot resistance)
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:09   Link #1209
Sekirei07
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Saten is more the Judas in this story I think
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:09   Link #1210
Alpha Knight
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Originally Posted by shadowii View Post
^ still not twelve and Cruz was the teams errend boy not leader if anything hes the one whose lived on to uphold their ideas (before the list revealed a whole bunch more people i thought Cruz was now the entire blackspot resistance)
Not the entire resistance, but in the future Cruz will lead a group with the 12 that will destroy Arclight's dictatorship.

And I wonder if Aruka will be in that group too since she's the traitor.

Quote:
Saten is more the Judas in this story I think
Saten, the one who let everyone survive third shelter, the one who made Cruz's resurrection possible?

It's Aruka the Needless Judas.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:10   Link #1211
Ca12nag3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowii View Post
I think your getting a little too symbolic for this manga
aruka's anme has also been translated as arca which is spanish for ark
Yes thats what i say ark ark ark. I dunno to what bibleschool you went but there are 2 arks,

Noahs ark (wich she is not)
the ark of the covenant (wich she is)
Aruka never betray anyone exept the resistance. A lot of people do doublework here, also the prettygirlsquad members defy Simeon with helping out Cruz, Saten hels Eve making him a traitor as well. Gido is actualy the creator of both Arclight and Blade... would qualify as well.
Aruka is just 1 of many on the list. So far she could be even Paul who worked for the Highpriests hunting down Christians and converted eventualy. So who knows.

Paul thought at first (when he was the old paul) that only the old belief was correct and was stuborn in what he learned that is the Jewish faith, he was at the time the personification of a Christian hunter, and killed many. Only the teachings of Mozes were correct acording to him.
Aruka sees Cruz as a weakling and he should die. Now she has kinda faith in him ( Eventualy Paul became the 12th apostel when Judas was no more)
So she could also be this.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:25   Link #1212
Alpha Knight
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Now you say, Judas was the 12th apostel. After his death, Paul became the new 12th. Either way, both are the 12th.

Could that mean Aruka will be eventually converted and become the 12th member in the group Cruz is to lead in a distant future?
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:27   Link #1213
shadowii
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i think we should see what happens to cruz before we go to the twelve aposltes thing there really is no basis for it in the manga

Also we still dont know the ends Arclight is hoping to achieve, stopping a dictatorship may very well be the least of the good guys worries when those reasons come out.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:34   Link #1214
Alpha Knight
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Originally Posted by shadowii View Post
i think we should see what happens to cruz before we go to the twelve aposltes thing there really is no basis for it in the manga
Oh, c'mon, at this point I have no doubt Cruz is Christ in the bible. Like Magin said, better start calling him the 2nd, or the 3rd. At least I will do...
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:36   Link #1215
shadowii
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Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
Oh, c'mon, at this point I have no doubt Cruz is Christ in the bible. Like Magin said, better start calling him the 2nd, or the 3rd. At least I will do...
thats just it, needless is very unperdictable and anything could happen, being sure is not a good idea.
I was sure Cruz was the one who was going to find Blade, not the other way around and certainly not so soon.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:38   Link #1216
Alpha Knight
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thats just it, needless is very unperdictable and anything could happen, being sure is not a good idea.
If not he's his son, but no, that's impossible.

Needless is very unpredictable, true, but when you have manga facts (better if you can read japanese), everything's more easy.

The thing of Blade is not that surprising too. We knew he wasn't in Simeon's hands. In order for Arclight to have his body he eventually had to come back.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:47   Link #1217
shadowii
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Originally Posted by _kurusu_ View Post
If not he's his son, but that's impossible.

Needless is very unpredictable, true, but when you have manga facts (better if you can read japanese), everything's more easy.
Uh, kurusu the facts are that nothing thus far in the manga itself has explicitly linked Cruz to the Second or even suggested it. There have been a lot of Needless momments that could be compared to scenes from the bible but each of them could be interpreted in different ways. Many moments show their is something extra ordinary about him, but they could all just show he has a fragment instead of all powers or that someone else is keeping him alive for unknown reasons. So far the main story has identified what Blade, Arclight, and Eve are (clone beings with second cells) not what Cruz is or Saten for that matter. I am not saying its not true or even that if hes not a reincarnation he wont still gain a connection to the second. But dont tell the story before the story comes out, thats what the ultima rumor did.

Blade coming back was really damn suprising we all spent the months between 71 and 73 debating whether or not that was him.
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Old 2009-11-22, 15:52   Link #1218
Alpha Knight
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I never believed and will never believe the thing about the Ultima fragment, not only because it went to the point of turning a joke but because theresn't a single reference.

On the other hand, I saw Aruka suddenly stopping when she was about to kill Cruz, I saw Cruz surviving a terrible explosion and a massive fall, wich gave me a clue and a good reason to believe he has a link with Christ.

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want.

http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/45016/2

Even Setsuna and Kuchinashi were very surprised.

Last edited by Alpha Knight; 2009-11-22 at 16:11.
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Old 2009-11-22, 17:01   Link #1219
Ca12nag3
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Here is some things id like to say that are important.

If Cruz has a fragment, or all powers is unknown Even if he will get powers at all is unknown.
How far biblical elements are copied in is unknown.
There are tons of references like , Adam,Eve,Cruz,Aruka, Arclight (wich i refer as Lucifer).Yet nothing is coherent yet.
I only pointed out the entire Aruka could be Paul makes actualy more sence then her being Judas, since if both Cruz and Aruka have more equal value as characters shes more likely to be a reference to a character up to the name of Aruka (Ark) Since it has to be it to be a character linked to the Christ era.
But thats pure speculation nothing is realy certain unless you get some sneakpeaks into whats to come.
Some of you realy make to much Fact out of Theory. Try to keep it to the theory without burning down other ideas.
Who knows maybe Aruka isnt even Paul or Judas. Also the betrayel you say isnt betrayel in her point of view, remember the Blackspot rule death to the weak. In her point of view the strongest is the new 2nd and thats Arclight but shes missguided. Now Judas never was convinced Christ was weak or such. But Paul was. So if i explain it my way im right. And if you explain it your way your right.
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Old 2009-11-22, 17:22   Link #1220
shadowii
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[QUOTE=Ca12nag3;2780399]Here is some things id like to say that are important.

If Cruz has a fragment, or all powers is unknown Even if he will get powers at all is unknown.
How far biblical elements are copied in is unknown.
There are tons of references like , Adam,Eve,Cruz,Aruka, Arclight (wich i refer as Lucifer).Yet nothing is coherent yet.
Some of you realy make to much Fact out of Theory. Try to keep it to the theory without burning down other ideas.

yes thank you Ca12nag3
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