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View Poll Results: -Your- picks for the best songs in Macross Frontier [Multiple-pick Option Enabled]
Welcome To My FanClub's Night! 67 21.54%
Shinkuu no Diamond Crevasse 107 34.41%
Aimo ~Tori no Hito 83 26.69%
Infinity 84 27.01%
Diamond Crevasse ~Sheryl Only♥ 183 58.84%
Northern Cross 150 48.23%
Anata no Oto 55 17.68%
Seikan Hikōu 82 26.37%
Yousei 98 31.51%
Ai Oboete Imasu ka ~Ranka 76 24.44%
Watashi no Kare wa Pilot 30 9.65%
Lion 164 52.73%
Diamond Crevasse 50/50 36 11.58%
Aoi no Ether 49 15.76%
Neko Nikki 20 6.43%
Nyan Nyan Service Medley 101 32.48%
What 'bout my star?@Formo 109 35.05%
Triangler ~ Maaya Sakomoto 71 22.83%
Iteza☆Gogo Kuji Don't be late 88 28.30%
What 'bout my star? ~Sheryl 78 25.08%
Aimo OC 52 16.72%
Triangular - Duet - 93 29.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 311. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-04-16, 18:02   Link #1681
vivitoru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Yes its definitely taste. Because Macross is more or less created in Japan for Japanese audience, the music is created to appeal to them the best and they should judge it fairer than foreign audience.
I disagree with this statement. If there's one anime well-known in the west it would definitely be Macross, thanks to its robotech incarnation. Frontier's music may be geared mostly towards japanese audience like Macross 7 but Macross Plus and Zero soundtracks obviously weren't created with only the japanese audience in mind thus westerners shouldn't be thought of as less fit to judge Frontier's songs on the basis that they don't understand the language first-hand.

Granted some of the meaning may be lost in translation but it shouldn't be that significant (unless all the subs and lyrics translations floating on the net are utter failures). It's true though that the impact wouldn't be the same if these songs were sung in English or any other western language since the lyrics wouldn't flow that well (amazing thing about japanese music:i find that otherwise cheesy lyrics flow really well in that language)

As for Seikan Hikou being underappreciated, just as mike_s_6 said one shouldn't think too much about comments of a handful (correct me if I'm wrong here) people. Some may like this particular song but from a purely musical standpoint it's pretty obvious there are more well-crafted pieces in the show and the anime sphere in general.
I wonder how many of Ranka fans would still listen to it if it weren't linked to the character they like? Not to mention that all the ingredients were thrown in to make it appealing to otakus: cute dance animation, poppish karaoke song (Hare Hare Yukai was obviously not a masterpiece and yet it had quite a cult of followers, same with Motteke! Sailor Fuku and other anime songs)
Taken out of the MacF context Seikan Hikou is just a generic pop song (and yes the lyrics don't strike me as particularly deep from the translation I read) unlike DC or NC which you can easily listen to even without the MacF context.
All this pointless talk just to say that the ones saying this subforum is too biased hence the low rank of SH may be right but this result is only normal when you consider both the musical standpoint (I'm no musician whatsoever though) and the way they were used in the show (SH use in episode 12 can't honestly compare to DC in eps 6-20 and NC in 22)

Now I would argue that there are lots of other anime songs far better than Seikan Hikou which don't get the recognition they should from the japanese audience who understand the lyrics and that's quite sad actually: maybe I'm just saying nonsense here but since there's no word saying some of these songs ranked in Oricon I assume it's true.
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Old 2009-04-16, 18:53   Link #1682
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Originally Posted by vivitoru View Post
I disagree with this statement. If there's one anime well-known in the west it would definitely be Macross, thanks to its robotech incarnation. Frontier's music may be geared mostly towards japanese audience like Macross 7 but Macross Plus and Zero soundtracks obviously weren't created with only the japanese audience in mind thus westerners shouldn't be thought of as less fit to judge Frontier's songs on the basis that they don't understand the language first-hand.
Actually, Macross PLUS and Zero were not created with Westerners in mind, at all. This goes for most anime.

The fact is that both PLUS and ZERO were actually not expected to be exported stateside, and Zero definitely wasn't. Just because Zero featured a French soundtrack does not mean anything. While anime in general does have other audiences in mind, they are not Westerners, but East Asians.

Hell, if they had Westerners in mind, they'd be fighting to get Macross Frontier over here. The fact is that, they aren't even moving an inch towards that direction.

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Old 2009-04-16, 19:09   Link #1683
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I'm just a foreigner who learnt Japanese and found it the greatest investment ever.
So, you're a foreigner. Therefore, you also cannot appreciate japanese music?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Hell, if they had Westerners in mind, they'd be fighting to get Macross Frontier over here. The fact is that, they aren't even moving an inch towards that direction.
I'd think this would be the same problem as with Macross 7: the music licensing. After all, it is quite a big deal, and there's a lot of music in this.
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Old 2009-04-16, 19:18   Link #1684
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I'd think this would be the same problem as with Macross 7: the music licensing. After all, it is quite a big deal, and there's a lot of music in this.
In East Asia, there are systems in place that allow rapid transfer of licensing from Japan. Japanese magazines and comics for example, are usually translated and published within 24 ~ 72 hours say... in Taiwan. This is the same with anime releases.

The problem with the US and other Western markets is not so much with the separate licensing, but the delay is really caused by our overly-complex trade and copyright laws. Its pretty stupid, if you ask me.

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Old 2009-04-16, 19:22   Link #1685
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On that, we agree 100%. I just wish some Blu-Ray release of this series would come out, even if only with english subs. That would be enough for me.
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Old 2009-04-16, 23:17   Link #1686
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So, you're a foreigner. Therefore, you also cannot appreciate japanese music?
I don't know whether you're serious or kidding, if you're serious then you're really not understanding things.

I deliberately stated myself as a foreigner and pointed out that Japanese is my greatest investment. Why so? Because after I learnt Japanese, I found a much greater enjoyment and depth in Japanese media than before.

Did you skip over my posts and attempt to argue back without understanding them?

How many times must I repeat this line?
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
I only stated that foreigners will never fully grasp the meaning of Japanese music if they do not know the language.
The point is not foreigners, the point is the understanding of the Japanese language.
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Old 2009-04-17, 00:34   Link #1687
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
How many times must I repeat this line?The point is not foreigners, the point is the understanding of the Japanese language.
Seikan Hikou though? There's nothing particularly deep about Seikan Hikou unless there's a lot going on in the Japanese that isn't in the English translation. I doubt that, however, as Yoko Kanno has said it's just a pop song. Saying that non-Japanese speaking foreigners just don't get how meaningful it is to the Japanese is silly since there's nothing to get, it's a fluffy pop song.

So do we non-Japanese speaking foreigners not get the depth and meaning in a song called "My Boyfriend's a Pilot," too? That's a good match for Seikan Hikou's place in Frontier, since it's a similarly fluffy pop song. My dinner plate had more depth than either of them, but to be fair it does have a bit of depth to it.
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Old 2009-04-17, 00:47   Link #1688
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Seikan Hikou though? There's nothing particularly deep about Seikan Hikou unless there's a lot going on in the Japanese that isn't in the English translation. I doubt that, however, as Yoko Kanno has said it's just a pop song. Saying that non-Japanese speaking foreigners just don't get how meaningful it is to the Japanese is silly since there's nothing to get, it's a fluffy pop song.

So do we non-Japanese speaking foreigners not get the depth and meaning in a song called "My Boyfriend's a Pilot," too? That's a good match for Seikan Hikou's place in Frontier, since it's a similarly fluffy pop song. My dinner plate had more depth than either of them, but to be fair it does have a bit of depth to it.
The fluff, the Kira, the moe it has are indeed its good points. Anything more you'll have to ask the Japanese who posted in the Nico video. Being just a pop song doesn't mean it can't be good and be loved, Ai Oboeteimasuka is also a pop song.

I just used Seikan Hikou as the example, because its where the Japanese posters have the greatest reaction for low ranking. It is when it came up that the posters start talking about understanding and appreciating Japanese music.

Understanding and taste are two things, but understanding also contributes to taste. Understanding also contributes to appreciation. And understanding itself is also has various factors. The Japanese think that foreigners do not understand and appreciate like they do, which is a fact, because Japanese are Japanese, foreigners are foreigners, they view it differently. The main difference is language and culture.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:04   Link #1689
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Oh, then all of us non-japanese speaking people should just stop watching anime and reading manga and listening to japanese songs because we don't understand the moonspeak, as we wouldn't get the deeper meanings of the things being said? And what about the engrish they use sometimes? It's "acceptable", then? It's funny, actually.
Like I've been saying all along, this kinda reasoning is bigoted and impolite. If you wanna subscribe to it, fine. Don't mind if I don't.

And you did write that you agreed with the people from Nico, in that "foreigners can't appreciate japanese music". You didn't qualify it with foreigners who don't understand the language. To most xenophobes who would subscribe to this kinda notion, it wouldn't make a bit of difference - you'd still not be japanese. Just a wannabe.
That's something very harsh to say, after a person goes to all the trouble of learning the language, and all...

Also, I still don't get the deeper meaning or the importance of Seikan Hikou, to the japanese audience.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:27   Link #1690
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The fluff, the Kira, the moe it has are indeed its good points. Anything more you'll have to ask the Japanese who posted in the Nico video. Being just a pop song doesn't mean it can't be good and be loved, Ai Oboeteimasuka is also a pop song.
The fluff, the Kira, the moe are all it has. It makes it look like the Japanese like it because it's moe and that's not particularly hard for me to understand. I'm even an unenlightened, round-eyed foreign barbarian, or probably would be thought of as such by some of the Nico posters from the sounds of it.

Now I'm not going to deny that a knowledge of the native language will help ones understanding of a piece of music. A good translation and footnotes for cultural and linguistic things that you might otherwise miss can do the same thing. I will admit that finding a good, full translation of some of the Frontier songs is more difficult than it should be and the show didn't always have full versions to translation. Seikan Hikou isn't one of those songs though. I can see how it would appeal to Otaku though. It certainly is a taste thing and a culture thing, but it's not really an understanding thing.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:45   Link #1691
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Oh, then all of us non-japanese speaking people should just stop watching anime and reading manga and listening to japanese songs because we don't understand the moonspeak, as we wouldn't get the deeper meanings of the things being said? And what about the engrish they use sometimes? It's "acceptable", then? It's funny, actually.
Like I've been saying all along, this kinda reasoning is bigoted and impolite. If you wanna subscribe to it, fine. Don't mind if I don't.

And you did write that you agreed with the people from Nico, in that "foreigners can't appreciate japanese music". You didn't qualify it with foreigners who don't understand the language. To most xenophobes who would subscribe to this kinda notion, it wouldn't make a bit of difference - you'd still not be japanese. Just a wannabe.
That's something very harsh to say, after a person goes to all the trouble of learning the language, and all...

Also, I still don't get the deeper meaning or the importance of Seikan Hikou, to the japanese audience.
lol, how many times must I repeat that nobody ever said that not understanding something means that you should stop enjoying.

I did agree, and when asked why, I explained because people don't understand the language, that's why they'll never understand it fully.

And its exactly why I used the word foreigner for myself, I'm grouping myself with everyone who's a foreigner. Even if I learnt Japanese and understood what I hear, I'll never understand it in the exact same perspective as the Japanese. The Japanese have the fairest view and best opinions because the songs are designed by Japanese, for Japanese.

Chinese will appreciate Chinese music the most, Americans will appreciate American music the most, Indians for Indian music, Africans for African music and so on. We can only learn their languages to understand more, more than what we can understand without knowing their languages, but we will never truly and fully understand.

And for Seikan Hikou, lol like I said, I used it as the example only because it was the point where the uproar started. The Japanese did say the song is special to them, I myself like the song, but even I do not know the full exact reasons why they like it so much. Unless we are Japanese, we won't know exactly why they love it so much. But hey, no ones stopping anyone from loving or hating it.

I came in peace but wasn't welcomed, this is one of the most volatile and sensitive subforums in AS, I think I sparked off something as an outsider and got chased out. Well, I'll be sleeping now and won't be carrying on with this argument, you guys can return to your normal routines.
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Old 2009-04-17, 01:55   Link #1692
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Okay this is getting ridiculous... Either one side is trying to defend their opinion hardly and the opposing side is having some... misinterpretation?

To be honest C.A., there are those who could not like Seikan Hikou as much as those posters in Nico-Nico. I myself can contribute to knowing quite a number of Japanese that think Seikan Hikou, musically, is a normal J-pop song that is enjoyable. And that's it. It doesn't have enough gripe in the music area since there are too many similar songs that have that certain tune just like Seikan Hikou, in which all of them are very enjoyable too. One weakness of this song, I will have to say unfortunately.

What the Japanese's comments in Nico-Nico is actually the quality of the song that is enjoyable because of the fun elements ("Kira~!", uplifting lyrics, enjoyable music) in the song itself. This is what can be lost if people start to judge the song with their own factors of what makes music can be so impactful. Do you think person A, who judge music with how deep and impactful the lyric is, can be compared to how person B, who judge a music with how it makes him smile in joy?

Seikan Hikou is a good song, yes. However, in our, foreigners, eyes and ears, it has really little way to tug our heartsring. Not only that, we do have different view than Japanese. We could brush off the "Kira~!" and fun element for all things. This is perhaps what the Japanese want to say as strong and "qualities", but not really to us.
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Old 2009-04-17, 07:59   Link #1693
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I came in peace but wasn't welcomed, this is one of the most volatile and sensitive subforums in AS, I think I sparked off something as an outsider and got chased out. Well, I'll be sleeping now and won't be carrying on with this argument, you guys can return to your normal routines.
Hey, no need to start a pity party.
Just because I and some others disagree strongly with you doesn't mean you're not welcome. This is an open forum, and everyone is welcome to their own opinion. As such, sometimes, people are bound to have opposing views. It just so happens I'm fundamentally against your kind of opinion and find it unsuitable for a globalized world.

The local people (be they american, chinese, japanese, whatever) will understand local music the better? Is that a fact? Then tell me: why does brazilian Bossa Nova have more recognition outside Brazil? Is it because the foreigners don't understand it? That's just one example...

Personally, I have nothing against you - we just happen to disagree on something I feel very strongly about.
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Old 2009-04-17, 08:58   Link #1694
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Seikan Hikou is a good song, yes. However, in our, foreigners, eyes and ears, it has really little way to tug our heartsring. Not only that, we do have different view than Japanese. We could brush off the "Kira~!" and fun element for all things. This is perhaps what the Japanese want to say as strong and "qualities", but not really to us.
(to add more fuel to the fire XD)
Seikan Hikou tug my heartstring somewhat ...and it really depends on the location of "foreigners"...I would assume this Seikan Hikou may be more popular in Korea, China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong region, because (I think) those regions are more influenced by Japanese Culture...but a foreigner in let's say, Argentina, may react differently because Argentina is so far away from Japan

About the lyrics issue, we can get the meaning from translation, but sometimes the original lyrics can be real good/bad lol..I have another language besides English, and sometimes the lyrics of the songs I hear (not English song) can be real bad, I know what kind of the message the lyrics writers are trying to send, but the lyrics is not good enough and a translation could actually be better than the original lyrics. Opposite thing can also happen...just a reminder to everyone that these kind of "mistranslation" can indeed happen

Having said that, I don't know how "powerful" the lyrics can drive ppl to/away from the song...I know ppl like to listen to their style of music, but I don't know whether lyrics has that kind of power to drive ppl away from a song that has a really good music in it, or vice versa
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Old 2009-04-17, 09:35   Link #1695
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For the most part, I think that most of the responses have been polite. In this particular case, C.A., many of them just happen to (politely) disagree with what you're saying. You're perfectly welcome to continue to build up your case, as you've been doing all along.

The main weakness that I see in your arguments is that they lack focus. Let's take your point on language as an example. The statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I only stated that foreigners will never fully grasp the meaning of Japanese music if they do not know the language.
is one that many people can agree with.

The phrase "if they do not know the language" is the most important part of the line, as it makes no assumptions about whether foreigners know the language or not. However, this qualifying statement also makes it difficult to apply to the poll, as we don't know who knew the language when they voted, and who didn't.

Let's look at another statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I've mentioned and rementioned several times that I only stated that foreigners do not fully understand Japanese music.
At first glance, this sentence may sound similar to the earlier one, but the meaning is quite different. In order to reach this conclusion from the first one, you need to make the assumption that no foreigner knows the Japanese language. However, this is an assumption that most people will disagree with, due to the existance of counterexamples.

The flipside, of course, is that while this statement is harder to defend than the first one, it's also easier to generalize to the poll results.

The problem is when you start to flip-flop between these two (very different) ideas when challenged. This may make your points more difficult to refute, but it also prevents you from establishing a definitive conclusion, yourself.

You also need to lead the reader through every step of your arguments. As an example, if (for the sake of the argument) I accept your statement that

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The Japanese have the fairest view and best opinions because the songs are designed by Japanese, for Japanese.
then what's the next step in your line of reasoning? How does this relate to the poll? Are you claiming that the poll results are incorrect? Or are you suggesting that the people who wrote the comments on Nico should be doing the voting instead of us? Without a direct statement, the reader is forced to guess. That in turn makes it more difficult to figure out what your point of view really is.

As a side note, the poll doesn't actually involve any form of ranking. People just click boxes to indicate that they liked the song or they didn't.
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Old 2009-04-17, 15:41   Link #1696
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Different people will have different appreciations of songs because of their own backgrounds. As someone with a singing background myself, I probably look at the Macross F music differently than you do, C.A., but it would be downright arrogant of me to dismiss your opinion and say you can't understand music because you don't sing. (BTW, the lyrics aren't really a problem for me either, but lyrics are just a conduit for the emotion of the song. I don't know Latin, but I sang plenty of songs in that language, and others.)

I like the bell-like tone of Megumi's voice, but her stuff is very simplistic on a musical level. There isn't a single song she sings (solo) in the series that I would have any trouble singing myself, and I'm long past my vocal performance days. She also has a tendency to be overpowered by the more complex songs that she shares with May'n.

All you have to do is listen to "Lion" and it's painfully obvious that the song was originally written for May'n alone. It's obvious because, if you listen, you can hear that May'n is actually interjecting emotion and playing with vibrato in her lines as she sings, where it's all Megumi can do to hit the notes square on. (It's actually a little painful to listen to her try to "reach" in places) Not only that, but May'n is holding herself back and doing what any seasoned vocalist will do when it comes to blending their voices together.

May'n's songs, on the other hand, kick my ass and back again. "Yousei" is probably THE most difficult song in the series on a technical level, and she makes it almost seem effortless. That's not even going into how high energy many of her other songs are. "Anyone" can sing a slow ballad, or a peppy pop song that stays in one register, but something like "Northern Cross"? I've tried, and it's embarrassing. There is a reason why, in emotional, climax scenes, it's more often May'n singing. Diamond Crevasse (both times!), Iteza GoGo-kuji, Northern Cross...even in the service medley, she takes on the heavy lifting with "Lion" while Megumi croons "what 'bout my star" in the background.

So, if May'n's songs are what you think of when you think of the hard hitting emotional moments and they're of a much higher caliber proficiently, why on earth would anyone be surprised when she gets the higher amount of votes? I mean, you can go on and on about how a few Japanese people mentioned that foreigners don't understand Japanese music, but somehow miss outpouring of praise for the number one pick of Diamond Crevasse? Heck, it's like taking all the jokes of "where's ninjin?" seriously.
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Old 2009-04-17, 16:31   Link #1697
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Being just a pop song doesn't mean it can't be good and be loved, Ai Oboeteimasuka is also a pop song.
Yes they're both pop songs... but what a horrible comparison... if they were food for instance Ai Oboeteimasuka would be caviar while Seikan would be 2 minute noodles.

Quote:
I just used Seikan Hikou as the example, because its where the Japanese posters have the greatest reaction for low ranking.
How many posters are we talking about? 5? 10? 15? Out of how many comments? Also it's nico.. same site that abused Megumi for her Be Myself clip so badly they ended up banning people who said anything negative.

Also is there any Japanese frontier music polls without foreigner taint, I'll be curious to see where Seikan ranks in that...
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:18   Link #1698
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Off current topic, about the duet in the song "Lion", just wondering whether we underestimate the difficulty of Megumi singing the song "Lion" in Ranka's voice?? Sheryl's voice was stronger in the song Lion, but May'n didn't have to hold anything back did she? Sheryl has a special VA for her singing..on other hand, we have Megumi singing in Ranka's voice...

I heard another clip of Megumi singing in her own voice and it was very different (Forget which song tho)...don't know how Megumi's doing lately..from Westlo's post, it seems like she is not doing well

I barely sing in my life, let alone speaking in another voice, so I am wondering how difficult it is to sing in another voice...maybe someone with those experience can share it here XD
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I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:26   Link #1699
BetoJR
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Age: 36
I, personally, cannot find all that much difference between Mamegu's normal (not Macross F related) singing voice and Ranka's. Her "Be Myself" song could easily fit into Ranka's resume. If you remember which song you noticed her sounding different, justavisitor, please tell me, so I can try and listen to it, okay?

Now, I can definitely notice the difference between May'n as Sheryl and her current output, as in Shangri-La's OP, however. Not sure which I prefer, at the moment, tho.
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Old 2009-04-17, 21:55   Link #1700
DeX-kun
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I, personally, cannot find all that much difference between Mamegu's normal (not Macross F related) singing voice and Ranka's. Her "Be Myself" song could easily fit into Ranka's resume. If you remember which song you noticed her sounding different, justavisitor, please tell me, so I can try and listen to it, okay?

Now, I can definitely notice the difference between May'n as Sheryl and her current output, as in Shangri-La's OP, however. Not sure which I prefer, at the moment, tho.
Well I think this song is where Megumi sounds different from her Ranka voice. I can definitely tell the difference in this song but most of her other songs still have that perky Ranka sound to them, but this is the song that justavisitor was referring to.

Megumi Nakajima
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