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Old 2011-03-07, 09:23   Link #2421
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Only because she is civilian does not mean that she cannot help and that is the point what makes her looking so selfish (at the beginning).

Yes, you get hurt. But wounds heal. But isn't it better to have some wounds than having more persons dying because of taking no action or at least have them have a ride with the cab to the next shelter point?
She's a civilian again what good would it have done for her to stay there, and even then its not as though she could have anyway, because Cathy dragged her off the stage.

No good would have come out of her staying there, as she would just be in way, would probably get injured and started the intergalactic incident Cathy was afraid of.

Its really easy for someone to say what should be done, when they don't consider what good would come out of doing it.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:03   Link #2422
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Only because she is civilian does not mean that she cannot help and that is the point what makes her looking so selfish (at the beginning).

Yes, you get hurt. But wounds heal. But isn't it better to have some wounds than having more persons dying because of taking no action or at least have them have a ride with the cab to the next shelter point?
That's totally silly. She was been sequestered away by the military, who had jurisdiction about whom to take or not take at that moment. Civilians were leaving the building in an orderly manner at the time of Sheryl's departure. Only after Sheryl was driven away the Vajra entered Island 1.

Altos rage was misplaced. Although it shows that even then he already cared about the people of Frontier.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:28   Link #2423
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Only because she has the military as her personal bodyguards does not mean she could not at least take some civilians with her. Considering that the dome shield was penetrated by a vajra by that time she could have taken some civilians with her. Regardless what the military says.

So going to your statement that she left in first episode was not wrong why did she stay with the civilians later the episodes? She's a star and she could have left the civilians back.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:36   Link #2424
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Only because she has the military as her personal bodyguards does not mean she could not at least take some civilians with her. Considering that the dome shield was penetrated by a vajra by that time she could have taken some civilians with her. Regardless what the military says.

So going to your statement that she left in first episode was not wrong why did she stay with the civilians later the episodes? She's a star and she could have left the civilians back.
and what good would taking some civilians with her do? Your in order to do that then she would have get away from military guarding her and convince them to go back. Which she can not. In the end the it was the military that handling the situation, because it is not Sheryl's place to do the military's job.

Besides if she had gone back she would have just gotten in their way, something that she realized. If Sheryl had gone back there was a chance that she would have gotten hurt and started an intergalactic incident something which Frontier can not afford at that time. The military had the situation under control her involving herself would have added confusion. And during such moments trust me when I say that confusion is the last thing you want, in that type of situation.

Also Sheryl in the last episode was in a completely different situation which was not at all comparable to what happened in the first episodes.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:43   Link #2425
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Also Sheryl in the last episode was in a completely different situation which was not at all comparable to what happened in the first episodes.
The situation was the same: The Vajra attacked. The only difference is that it was Ranka who held a concert before the attack.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:50   Link #2426
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The situation was the same: The Vajra attacked. The only difference is that it was Ranka who held a concert before the attack.
No it wasn't. First of all Sheryl was not under the protection of the military, meaning there was no one coming by to cart her off to a safe haven. Second of all She was not the one performing, Ranka was, and it was Ranka's turn to sing in order to calm down the Vajra (even though she couldn't). Third Nanase had gotten injured right in front of her, and even then Sheryl only had time to make sure that Nanase had made it to the shelter. Fourth the Vajra attack this time came as a complete surprise because it happened from within the Frontier rather than the Vajra breaking through the glass that separated Frontier from the rest of space, meaning there was absolutely no time to prepare a sortie to fight them back. And Fifth the Vajra were a hell of a lot more enraged this time.

Although if the situations are completely like how you claim then going by your own logic then Ranka should have been the one to accompany Nanase to the shelter and make sure that everyone had evacuated.
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Old 2011-03-07, 11:54   Link #2427
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No it wasn't. First of all Sheryl was not under the protection of the military, meaning there was no one coming by to cart her off to a safe haven. Second of all She was not the one performing, Ranka was, and it was Ranka's turn to sing in order to calm down the Vajra (even though she couldn't). Third Nanase had gotten injured right in front of her, and even then Sheryl only had time to make sure that Nanase had made it to the shelter. Fourth the Vajra attack this time came as a complete surprise because it happened from within the Frontier rather than the Vajra breaking through the glass that separated Frontier from the rest of space, meaning there was absolutely no time to prepare a sortie to fight them back. And Fifth the Vajra were a hell of a lot more enraged this time.

Although if the situations are completely like how you claim then going by your own logic then Ranka should have been the one to accompany Nanase to the shelter and make sure that everyone had evacuated.
Ok. That being said. Why did she not do the same in the first episode? Only because Nanase was closer to her than in the beginning? Because someone else - who is also close to her - held a concert? Because she had no bodyguards? So no matter how I spin it now. At the end I come to my conclusion she was very selfish at the beginning of the series.

Basically yes, but Alto took the decision for her and just grabbed her.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:15   Link #2428
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Ok. That being said. Why did she not do the same in the first episode? Only because Nanase was closer to her than in the beginning? Because someone else - who is also close to her - held a concert? Because she had no bodyguards? So no matter how I spin it now. At the end I come to my conclusion she was very selfish at the beginning of the series.
At the beginning of the series Sheryl wasn't just Sheryl Nome. She was the Galactic Fairy from Macross Galaxy. If she got hurt, it would damage the relations between Galaxy and Frontier, and possibly give the already opposite Galaxy an opportunity to launch at least a political war against Frontier.

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Basically yes, but Alto took the decision for her and just grabbed her.
And that's different from Cathy grabbing Sheryl and stuffing her in a car, how? Cathy is even less likely to listen to Sheryl's protests than Alto is to listen to Ranka's.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:19   Link #2429
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Father Hentai, you seem to have forgotten that Sheryl was also a very important VIP in a diplomatic sense, especially in a society where singers are highly valued.

Sure, she acted bitchy in the beginning when she told Alto off, but she was right, especially seeing how Alto nearly lost his life for trying to be a hero. She simply reached a compromise in episode 1, letting the military do their job and trusting their abilities to do so by not get in the way. If I was in her situation, I'd probably do the same, never mind she was being shoved in by Cathy in the process. Your idea of taking civvies with her is silly, what was she to do? Go back, and drag more people into a car that had little room while putting them in danger by being naive? She was in no position to help anyone then.

But she was, during Ranka's concert, and she acted upon it.

In contrast to Ranka, whose best friend just got blown away, and the only thing she can remember is oh, what is this touchy-warm-fuzzy feeling holding my hand...?

- Tak
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:26   Link #2430
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Only because she has the military as her personal bodyguards does not mean she could not at least take some civilians with her. Considering that the dome shield was penetrated by a vajra by that time she could have taken some civilians with her. Regardless what the military says.

So going to your statement that she left in first episode was not wrong why did she stay with the civilians later the episodes? She's a star and she could have left the civilians back.
Again, she was not under her own jurisdiction at that moment, but under military escort.
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Old 2011-03-07, 12:44   Link #2431
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Ok. That being said. Why did she not do the same in the first episode? Only because Nanase was closer to her than in the beginning? Because someone else - who is also close to her - held a concert? Because she had no bodyguards? So no matter how I spin it now. At the end I come to my conclusion she was very selfish at the beginning of the series.

Basically yes, but Alto took the decision for her and just grabbed her.
Because she couldn't do the same thing, what part about do you not understand? The situation was different. End of story. You seem to forget the actual events of the story in order to try to prove your point. You wanna know another difference between episode 1 and episode 20, in episode 20 Sheryl was not under jurisdiction of the military like she was in episode 1. Sheryl in episode 20 was free to do what she wanted.

Which is the same thing to happened to Sheryl, Cathy took Sheryl away before she even really realized what was going on. Except isn't wasn't just Cathy who carted Sheryl away it was Cathy and the military that did it.

All you keep saying is that Sheryl should hand done X but you never once consider the fact that it wouldn't have been a good thing for her do it.
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Old 2011-03-07, 14:10   Link #2432
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Hey, by FH's standard, Sheryl probably should have punched out the big red Vajra with a Hadoken.
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Old 2011-03-07, 14:17   Link #2433
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Hey, by FH's standard, Sheryl probably should have punched out the big red Vajra with a Hadoken.
Nope. E. Honda because the V-type virus is in her head and not in her fist.

Spoiler for Honda:
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Old 2011-03-07, 20:53   Link #2434
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Forget "causing an international incident" and all that. It's easy enough to understand why Sheryl acted the way she did without making things that complicated. Look at it this way: Sheryl is a famous VIP. If she goes back in she's going to distract the evacuees and the security staff. She'd be more of a hindrance than a help (how the heck do you expect her to help?). Her going along with what people tell her to do is the best decision she can make because it keeps the evacuation running smoothly. That's not selfishness, that's simply being practical.
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Old 2011-03-08, 09:36   Link #2435
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But she was, during Ranka's concert, and she acted upon it.

In contrast to Ranka, whose best friend just got blown away, and the only thing she can remember is oh, what is this touchy-warm-fuzzy feeling holding my hand...?

- Tak
I'll say... that Sheryl was cast only in an unfavorable light in the mindset of a naive, childish Alto who has yet to "discover her real self" and is both running away from his home and in denial for his love to the people of Frontier. When he matures, his relationship with Ranka strains while his relationship with Sheryl strengthens. I do think she was purposefully displayed as a haughty, pushy diva in the beginning (weren't the commentaries said something about the kind?).
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Old 2011-03-08, 11:39   Link #2436
Father Hentai
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Father Hentai, you seem to have forgotten that Sheryl was also a very important VIP in a diplomatic sense, especially in a society where singers are highly valued.

Sure, she acted bitchy in the beginning when she told Alto off, but she was right, especially seeing how Alto nearly lost his life for trying to be a hero. She simply reached a compromise in episode 1, letting the military do their job and trusting their abilities to do so by not get in the way. If I was in her situation, I'd probably do the same, never mind she was being shoved in by Cathy in the process. Your idea of taking civvies with her is silly, what was she to do? Go back, and drag more people into a car that had little room while putting them in danger by being naive? She was in no position to help anyone then.

But she was, during Ranka's concert, and she acted upon it.

In contrast to Ranka, whose best friend just got blown away, and the only thing she can remember is oh, what is this touchy-warm-fuzzy feeling holding my hand...?

- Tak
Well then she lacks a bit of civilian courage. If I remember correct, Sheryl wanted to stay because she did not want to break her concert. So from this point of view she had no choice. However she had the choice to offer support. I won't continue on this because you mention as well that she was not friendly - to those not close to her - at the beginning.

As the part of Ranka. She sung later the episode although. My theory here is without the touchy-warm-fuzzy feeling from holding Altos hand she would not have been able to sing to attract the Vajra. Note here: She was only used after the Gallia IV incidence as an additional tool against the vajra.
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Old 2011-03-08, 14:34   Link #2437
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Well then she lacks a bit of civilian courage.
The later episodes put the lie to your remark.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:09   Link #2438
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Well then she lacks a bit of civilian courage. If I remember correct, Sheryl wanted to stay because she did not want to break her concert. So from this point of view she had no choice. However she had the choice to offer support. I won't continue on this because you mention as well that she was not friendly - to those not close to her - at the beginning.

As the part of Ranka. She sung later the episode although. My theory here is without the touchy-warm-fuzzy feeling from holding Altos hand she would not have been able to sing to attract the Vajra. Note here: She was only used after the Gallia IV incidence as an additional tool against the vajra.
Again Cathy dragged Sheryl off before she even realized what was going on. It's a simple fact, by the time Sheryl said "nani?" she was dragged off stage. Afterward if Sheryl had gone back as said before she just would have caused more confusion.

And again if Sheryl tried to help what do you think would happen? And again Ranka didn't try to help anybody either when the Vajra either, so there goes your point.

Ranka only couldn't sing at the beginning because she was upset about seeing Alto and Sheryl hug, and because of that she wanted to die and couldn't sing. There's no point in trying to provide alternate reading when Ranka out right tells her reasons to the audience.
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Old 2011-03-08, 18:53   Link #2439
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Again Cathy dragged Sheryl off before she even realized what was going on. It's a simple fact, by the time Sheryl said "nani?" she was dragged off stage. Afterward if Sheryl had gone back as said before she just would have caused more confusion.

And again if Sheryl tried to help what do you think would happen? And again Ranka didn't try to help anybody either when the Vajra either, so there goes your point.

Ranka only couldn't sing at the beginning because she was upset about seeing Alto and Sheryl hug, and because of that she wanted to die and couldn't sing. There's no point in trying to provide alternate reading when Ranka out right tells her reasons to the audience.
Look at the situation again. When the Vajra attacked it was unclear at the stadium if it was a false alarm, a training or a real attack. The concert just was interrupted. As far as I see Sheryl being upset she was more upset that her concert was interrupted and therefore she did not want to leave.

And if Sheryl would have helped, the result would be that she would look much nicer. However she did not and this is an additional reason why I said she is selfish at the beginning. That she gets nicer is something I see as part of her progress in the series but not at the beginning.

And that Ranka also did not help is half correct. She was able to sing but it backfired. If she had not sung a second time I would have agreed with you but she sung again after some interaction with Alto (who is gives her courage and also whom she loves). This is all about Ranka here. If you want to discuss about her more about her character move it to the Ranka thread.
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Old 2011-03-08, 19:05   Link #2440
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Look at the situation again. When the Vajra attacked it was unclear at the stadium if it was a false alarm, a training or a real attack. The concert just was interrupted. As far as I see Sheryl being upset she was more upset that her concert was interrupted and therefore she did not want to leave.

And if Sheryl would have helped, the result would be that she would look much nicer. However she did not and this is an additional reason why I said she is selfish at the beginning. That she gets nicer is something I see as part of her progress in the series but not at the beginning.

And that Ranka also did not help is half correct. She was able to sing but it backfired. If she had not sung a second time I would have agreed with you but she sung again after some interaction with Alto (who is gives her courage and also whom she loves). This is all about Ranka here. If you want to discuss about her more about her character move it to the Ranka thread.

Actually she just looks surprised more so than anything else,

But she would in way wouldn't she? A fact that she pointed out herself, it was safer for the citizens themselves for her to not get involved, and leave it up to the people who knew better than her. Even though she may come across as mean she still has a point.

No, its half right. Ranka didn't even think about the people who were running away from her concert back then. I merely brought her up because you tried to use Ranka's concert as a contrast to Sheryl, to which I was pointing out that Ranka did the exact same thing, the only difference is that you're making excuses for Ranka. The reason why Ranka sang the second time wasn't because she could be of help (rather than in the way the way Sheryl would have been) and two she was forced to sing, on both occasions.
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