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Old 2008-07-14, 19:46   Link #801
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleachOD
He doesn't drop at her feet like all the others, so she lets her insecurities get the better of her
The point is more about Sheryl's interest in a man who showed her he is different compared to her legions of adoring fans.

You speak of malice, you thought Sheryl wanted "that other girl" to move out of her territory based on little events, but the moment the series actually addresses this scenario when Ranka stole Sheryl's concert time and Sheryl watched Ranka take over her birthday gift and fly in the skies with Alto, Sheryl did none of the things you mentioned. Sheryl spoke nothing about the events, and ordered Alto to lay his life down for Ranka the moment she heard his desperate cry for her. It contradicts the picture of Sheryl you believed, but whether you want to acknowledge this is entirely up to you OD. That is what it means to look at Sheryl as a whole right now.

The way you tied Episode 10 and 11 together to build up your perspective on the played events is good effort, I'll give you credit for that, but there are a lot of other factors in the scenes that you have either missed or chose to dismiss, as even though it's understandably easy to miss them at first, a second look may make a tremendous difference to the picture you're currently painting. Most if not all of those little factors have been touched on by Swampstorm, daimonth and a lot of other posters... even if some posts were sprinkled and laid out with the fire of their love for Queen Sheryl.

Quote:
Sheryl’s perceived strengths…
“Watashi wa Sheryl desu!” (I am Sheryl)

...

Sheryl’s real problems
You have pinpointed a fair bit of Sheryl's character qualities, everything you have listed under this section is something most (if not all) fans of Sheryl agree on, but I'll show you what daimonth meant when he/she said "to state the obvious yet missing the key aspect of a persons character". The camera has always been looking mostly at Ranka and the plot in the first half, so it requires a bit of careful looking, which I commend you for doing as you have shown in this section. However...

Quote:
I will have righted a wrong...this time I am going to do it again
You chose to attack the wrong angle of the argument, as nobody is saying Sheryl has no insecurities. She has insecurities, and that is why she is such a strong character, because Sheryl refuses to allow them to rule over her. "Sheryl Nome" is her rock. It's what keeps her going. That name was built up through her own perseverance and strong will. The second half of the series is beginning to watch her closely now, and no longer is it a question of whether Sheryl is strong or not, it's a question of whether she's strong enough not to falter as she watches Alto go to Ranka. And Sheryl will falter, she will fall because she's trying to fend off attacks in the one area she not only has no experience in, but keeps backing away from : love. This is why I keep telling everyone to hold their fire as we reach the second half : the good stuff is just beginning.

Edit: I actually wasn't planning on responding because everyone has said it already, but I just thought I'd give my take on the issue anyway. Bring on your shipping analysis OD.

Last edited by cheesie; 2008-07-14 at 20:28.
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Old 2008-07-14, 20:33   Link #802
ickem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis View Post
The point is more about Sheryl's interest in a man who showed her he is different compared to her legions of adoring fans.

You speak of malice, you thought Sheryl wanted "that other girl" to move out of her territory based on little events, but the moment the series actually addresses this scenario when Ranka stole Sheryl's concert time and Sheryl watched Ranka take over her birthday gift and fly in the skies with Alto, Sheryl did none of the things you mentioned. Sheryl spoke nothing about the events, and ordered Alto to lay his life down for Ranka the moment she heard his desperate cry for her. It contradicts the picture of Sheryl you believed, but whether you want to acknowledge this is entirely up to you OD. That is what it means to look at Sheryl as a whole right now.

The way you tied Episode 10 and 11 together to build up your perspective on the played events is good effort, I'll give you credit for that, but there are a lot of other factors in the scenes that you have either missed or chose to dismiss, as even though it's understandably easy to miss them at first, a second look may make a tremendous difference to the picture you're currently painting. Most if not all of those little factors have been touched on by Swampstorm, daimonth and a lot of other posters... even if some posts were sprinkled and laid out with the fire of their love for Queen Sheryl.



You have pinpointed a fair bit of Sheryl's character qualities, everything you have listed under this section is something most (if not all) fans of Sheryl agree on, but I'll show you what daimonth meant when he/she said "to state the obvious yet missing the key aspect of a persons character". The camera has always been looking mostly at Ranka and the plot in the first half, so it requires a bit of careful looking, which I commend you for doing as you have shown in this section. However...



You chose to attack the wrong angle of the argument, as nobody is saying Sheryl has no insecurities. She has insecurities, and that is why she is such a strong character, because Sheryl refuses to allow them to rule over her. "Sheryl Nome" is her rock. It's what keeps her going. That name was built up through her own perseverance and strong will. The second half of the series is beginning to watch her closely now, and no longer is it a question of whether Sheryl is strong or not, it's a question of whether she's strong enough not to falter as she watches Alto go to Ranka. And Sheryl will falter, she will fall because she's trying to fend off attacks in the one area she not only has no experience in, but keeps backing away from : love. This is why I keep telling everyone to hold their fire as we reach the second half : the good stuff is just beginning.

Edit: I actually wasn't planning on responding because everyone has said it already, but I just thought I'd give my take on the issue anyway. Bring on your shipping analysis OD.
Well she is getting pummeled not only in the relationship arena, but it looks as if Grace will try to demolish the rock of Sheryl Nome before she goes onto her next plan.
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Old 2008-07-14, 20:40   Link #803
cheesie
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Originally Posted by ickem View Post
Well she is getting pummeled not only in the relationship arena, but it looks as if Grace will try to demolish the rock of Sheryl Nome before she goes onto her next plan.
Can't say I'm surprised, as I knew from the beginning that both girls will swap roles with each other in the middle of the series. (Coz you know, Macross Frontier is ALL about looking ahead and making predictions LMAO.) Sheryl started from the very top, but she will go down while Ranka will take her place. It makes for good drama and character development.
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:02   Link #804
ani_d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lone_wolf
Not exactly sure where to place myself in that list but while I do admire Sheryl I don't exactly find myself in an area of "overzealous" like BleachOD or even someone like Ani_D.
Those two are the prime examples of what ickem once brought up...the "Precious Snowflak Syndrome." They are about the right age for that too.
L.O.L!

Spoiler for lone_wolf:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
You know if ani_d comes in, sprouts some bullshit like she's looking at BleachOD's post from a non biased position and can find no fault with it... I'll lose every ounce of respect I have for her, which contrary to what my posts might say (what can I say, it's my style) and some people think is rather high.
FYI. I wasn't "BS-ing" when I said I couldn't find any fault in OD's analysis of Alto. Sure, she was a bit off here with Sheryl but I'd rather not jump on the bandwagon since I don't think there's a need to defend Sheryl in this thread anymore. Besides, it's not like we always get to see what's going on in Sheryl's head, I'm looking at you episode 11, so while there's a high chance that Sheryl really isn't like this (I think so too), the probability that Sheryl has a dark side is not absolutely zero now, is it? ^_^ I'm open to any twist in her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
I think he treated her kiss seriously in episode 10 but at the same time was wary because of how he thought she treated him... and when she laughed it off well it just confirmed it for him. Their relationship is kinda like the one you see in a lot of romance shows where the lead has an older childhood friend who messes with him a lot so he never takes her seriously.. except Alto and Sheryl are obviously not childhood friends. (please don't make that a twist Kawamori!) but their interactions from 1-12 of the series do build a platform which the show will go back to.

I'm pretty sure I know the direction the romantic side of the show will go, I started thinking that way when the episode 13 synopsis first leaked and episodes 10-14 have imo increased the chances of it turning out how I think it will, as have the synopsis for 15-18.


I asked my 9 year old little cousin what she thinks of Alto in this picture and guess what she said? She said: "She (Alto) looks disgusted..." lol While I don't think "disgusted" was the right word, I do see this reaction of his as lacking. Check out that downward curve of his mouth. He doesn't seem impressed to me. You can show this picture to random non-anime fan people and see if they can notice the lack of enthusiasm in Alto's face.

Compare that, to this...

Spoiler for This is Alto's "I'm-surprised-and-I'm-taking-it-seriously-face":


It makes a whole lot of difference. Anyway, despite that, I do have a feeling that Sheryl's big "counter-attack" will be her love confession to Alto. Let's see if it actually works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say... SherylXMichael FTW?

Sheryl deserves better than the ice princess...
SherylxMichael ftw. I would say BreraxSheryl since he's technically what Sheryl has been looking for (Galaxy survivor), but that would sorta ruin my Macross Vampire Knight formula lol
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:08   Link #805
ickem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
L.O.L!


I asked my 9 year old little cousin what she thinks of Alto in this picture and guess what she said? She said: "She (Alto) looks disgusted..." lol While I don't think "disgusted" was the right word, I do see this reaction of his as lacking. Check out that downward curve of his mouth. He doesn't seem impressed to me. You can show this picture to random non-anime fan people and see if they can notice the lack of enthusiasm in Alto's face.

Compare that, to this...

Spoiler for This is Alto's "I'm-surprised-and-I'm-taking-it-seriously-face":


It makes a whole lot of difference. Anyway, despite that, I do have a feeling that Sheryl's big "counter-attack" will be her love confession to Alto. Let's see if it actually works.
So you asked a 9 year old that question to provide support for your untenable analysis of that scene? And not only did you ask a 9 year old, but you gave her a screenshot without the context of the scene itself?
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:18   Link #806
ani_d
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Originally Posted by ickem View Post
So you asked a 9 year old that question to provide support for your untenable analysis of that scene? And not only did you ask a 9 year old, but you gave her a screenshot without the context of the scene itself?
My point is, if a 9 year old kid can pick up Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that scene, then what more for the rest of the grown ups? It's cool if you see this expression of his as surprised and a personal one since you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm just saying I don't see it.
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:19   Link #807
zalem
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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post

SherylxMichael ftw. I would say BreraxSheryl since he's technically what Sheryl has been looking for (Galaxy survivor), but that would sorta ruin my Macross Vampire Knight formula lol
Just say no to Macross Vampire Knight! And yes to SherylXBrera. Hehehe....I certainly wouldn't mind those two meeting up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
My point is, if a 9 year old kid can pick up Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that scene, then what more for the rest of the grown ups? It's cool if you see this expression of his as surprised and a personal one since you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm just saying I don't see it.
You don't think he looks shocked in that scene? Even OD agreed with us on that one. I'm not talking about that particular shot, look at the whole scene...
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:21   Link #808
stray
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Originally Posted by BleachOD View Post
It's nothing personal. Personally...I like you Nome-er's. The way you rip through the RankaXAlto fans is fucking *Awe inspiring* At least is to people who are as rabid as myself...
Normally I wouldn't have said anything...
Sheryl does give people… hopes and dreams…

Quote:
However, I noticed some character perceptions, that are in my opinion off. It just so happens;I think I am a good judge of character.
So do I, now that I think about it…

Quote:
Sure she's beautiful and beloved by various species throughout the galaxy. Psst!!*I didn't mean her career*
However the guy she wants...Has had all those things. So that does not impress him one bit

So she's out of her element when around him. He doesn't drop at her feet like all the others, so she lets her insecurities get the better of her

Let’s cut to the chase and get straight to the biggest bone of contention I have with her.

A lot of you argued that Sheryl had no way of knowing that Ranka would see that kiss she planted on Alto.
Normally I would say “That may be true”
However her actions before the kiss is what made me see the whole thing as spiteful.
Before they get to the Island...
Alto’s on the phone with Ranka; Sheryl notices and when she does…She isn’t happy.

When we get there… (This where I need the ladies to really pay attention because chicks do things like this all the time)
*snip…
Here its worse. She actually smiled in her face and learned Ranka’s plans for Alto’s birthday.Only to cut her throat later…*While getting the "That lump" dig in*

*snip
it wasn’t sweet to me. It was laced with malice and I didn’t enjoy it. Not to mention if you look at Alto’s expressions. His gaze is actually one of shock and then pity. He only blushes was she says she was only teasing him<--everyone does
Honestly for a while I was kind of thinking that Sheryl was trying to make an unspoken deal with Ranka regarding Alto, while helping with Ranka’s career. Regardless, it’s a stretch to call it outright malicious; Sheryl does take an interest in Ranka and cares about her on some level, if its a bit misguided.

Quote:
She was not confident enough like Ranka ...*Eurys?! Orihime would shit on herself before she'd ever do that*...to just ask him to go out with her.
[/CENTER]
She knows he’s not impressed with anything she has. So what could she give him that would mean more to him than his dependency on Ranka (See; Character Discussion: “Saotome Alto”)
The only thing she couldThe sky.
I put my analysis on the whole sky gift thing in one of the episode threads. I stand behind my botched supermove theorem #43

Quote:
I don’t like backstabbing women. I would rather you tell me to my face that you want him. Then go at him. Her smiling in Ranka’s face, then doing those things; makes me dislike her a bit. If she would just show a bit of the confidence she pretends she has. She is a hell of catch. She needs to realize this and then go after Alto.

I am not saying she should put Ranka’s feelings before hers. Not at all…I think she could do it a better way. Because given her character background. It makes her look kind of pathetic<-- (I am not trying to be insulting, just stating my opinion. *Shouldn't have asked for it*)
Mmmm… that’s a slippery slope. When it comes down to it…

Quote:
Sheryl’s real problems
(Notice she curls in fetal position every time her child hood is mentioned. She hugs her knees and appears to be a frightened little girl again. Her tough exterior is gone…This is the REAL Sheryl)
Sheryl is a scared little girl at heart, and…

Quote:
Sheryl’s perceived strengths…
“Watashi wa Sheryl desu!” (I am Sheryl)

This is Sheryl’s rock. [/B](She has no one to be it so she must do it herself)
That’s all she’s got. And, no, it’s not real, not even a little bit. It’s somewhere between confidence and conceit, but neither, really. And the line between holding up the fašade and curling into the fetal position is…

Quote:

She had no one. No love, No support, No family, No friends...

She needs to say the words to herself: only then can she believe it[SIZE="3"]
It’s really that thin.

Quote:
Which is why she’s drawn to Alto…He’s handsome. He understands what being a performer is like. He treats her like she is nobody… Even as she says this…I believe it’s a bit deeper than that. She wants to be loved, needs to be loved. Her desperation to be loved makes her cling to Alto. Even as he pushes her away (He does and I will show you. Just not now: because we are talking about Sheryl)
I agree with parts of this, but going back to my point which I never managed to finish ^ there… you can call the gift situation malicious, but really, what it comes down to IMO is the scared little girl came out and tried to hold on too tight because she was scared to lose him (and maybe the both of them, really). She knew she was fucking Ranka and I really doubt that’s her style, but hey, karma is a bitch, and Sheryl probably understood that.

Quote:
It's not surprising that she would become want to become and Idol...
Idol's are adored by millions and yet loved by no one.
To them she isn’t a person she is “Sheryl Nome”

She also displays a lack of confidence despite her being confident. Which is way I said its all “false bravado” (Introvert/Extrovert)
How did I arrive at the conclusion?!


Well…for one thing.

She doesn’t have the courage to go see Alto without an excuse. Like this one…
The guilt over his loss of her mother’s earring...
Do you know how many times she used that excuse? It was bordering on ridiculous. She used it even after she kissed him on the cheek and handed him them concert tickets. *That's when she really played her position*
Mmmm… yes, but no. When all you’ve ever had to keep you going in life is the eggshell fašade… well…

a. if you get slippery enough, you can do or say anything knowing full well how easy it is to back away from…
b. the whole mental tease thing is fucking hot
c. it’s really, really, really close to an intense strength of character… people are drawn to that shit
d. it becomes a crutch that is damn near impossible to let go of, and really supercedes the ability to really be close to someone.

I don’t know if I’d call it a lack of confidence, but she’s definitely trying to find a way into his tsundere shell, all the while in full shelled out regalia. End of the day, if she really wants love from Alto; she’s got to at least stop being “Sheryl Nome” and maybe try being Sheryl Nome. Can’t do that without really opening up, and going back to (a) above…

a. if you are confident and believe in yourself enough, you can do or say anything knowing full well that no matter what the results, you gave it your all… or something

Which is why I usually say Ranka’s heart is in the right place, and Sheryl’s… I don’t want to say it isn’t, but… it isn’t right now at least.

Of course, there's alot of story left for that to change...
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:23   Link #809
ickem
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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
My point is, if a 9 year old kid can pick up Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that scene, then what more for the rest of the grown ups? It's cool if you see this expression of his as surprised and a personal one since you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm just saying I don't see it.
I'm just saying that you can't really take his "expression" by itself since this is animation. More telling would be how the voice actor is portraying that scene. Nakamura Yuuichi clearly conveys shock and uncertainty when he says, "Sheryl, omae..."
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:23   Link #810
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Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
L.O.L!
Okay, Ani_d, since you've taken the time to view my post and add your own
response, I'll PM you since a conversation like this would most likely be deleted by the moderator.



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Old 2008-07-14, 21:26   Link #811
ani_d
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Originally Posted by zalem View Post
You don't think he looks shocked in that scene? Even OD agreed with us on that one. I'm not talking about that particular shot, look at the whole scene...
I'm talking about the moment of silence captured by that screenshot, since by that time, Alto thinks that Sheryl meant business.
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:32   Link #812
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Originally Posted by TwilightHack View Post
Mmm, I like the boats and tanks. I'm curious to see the 2nd half.
Boats and tanks for the win I say, they make me everytime I see them!
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Old 2008-07-14, 21:32   Link #813
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d
My point is, if a 9 year old kid can pick up Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that scene, then what more for the rest of the grown ups?
A nine year old kid can think what she/he wants without the overall context just as my kid sister can think Kamina from Gurren Lagann looks like a rapist. But if you use that to compare both pairings and it's why we're blind to Alto x Ranka, then all I can say is please don't say anything like this anymore because you have shown good arguments without resorting to something as sad as this. No one is saying you have to follow everyone's opinions and yes you're entitled to your own opinion but just make sure it's not based on so ridiculous that you risk endangering your credibility like someone almost did when he landed in 80% of everyone's ignore list.

I'm out, carry on people.
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:02   Link #814
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Aw, c'mon, I love how you write and I┤d like to see you retorically stomp OD into bloody paste.
Thank you for your support. It's actually a challenge for me to sit down, and try and compose a well written essay, as that style of writing is not my strong suit. I've been a fiction writer for over 20 years, and I love writing stories and romantic poetry. However, essays.... They tend to bore me. Next time, if I'm able to respond to an ani_d, or BleachOD post before the rest of my comrades, I will try and do my best again to live up to your expectations. Speaking of, I love reading your posts too, as I tend to agree on them just about 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say... SherylXMichael FTW?

Sheryl deserves better than the ice princess...
No. No. No. This is so wrong, it's not even funny. No. Sorry, no womanizer for Sheryl. Besides. Klan Klan would stomp Michael into the ground if he tried anything funny. When she's not fawning over him at least...

I'd much rather support a Klan Klan x Sheryl matching, and I'm not always open to yuri's... They both have fiery personalities and would be very fun to watch interact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
My point is, if a 9 year old kid can pick up Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that scene, then what more for the rest of the grown ups? It's cool if you see this expression of his as surprised and a personal one since you're entitled to your own opinion. I'm just saying I don't see it.
That one picture, does not show the whole scene. Really ani_d, your Ranka blindness is appalling. Watch the lead-up to the kiss, the kiss, then the reaction immediately to the kiss. Alto is stunned, then looks deeply at her, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE'S THINKING! As was proven in episode 8, he thinks she just loves messing with him, and that's all it is. He's trying to understand if she's doing it again, or if she's serious. I'm a guy. I should know. We men can't understand you women to save our lives. You're literally from another Galaxy than us.

Sorry Magnuskn, that's the best I can do right now. I have some Pizza to eat, and some kitties to play with as I just got home from work(2 hours later than normal). Looking forward to seeing more posts before I go to bed tonight.
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:10   Link #815
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Why am I the only one in the Sheryl camp who thinks Michael x Sheryl = HOT
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:17   Link #816
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They are ok, but I'm not terribly crazy about that pairing. Maybe cause Michael and Klan Klan possibly have something between them (though they need to figure out how to get around the loli problem).
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:23   Link #817
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Think of the scenario when Sheryl pulls away from the kiss - what if we see Alto smiling. He'd look really stupid if he did that, even pervy is you ask me. The best way for him to look aesthetically, which is also logical considering his character, is to look dumbfounded, which he did. His eyes while he was being kissed were confused, and his look after that is the continuation of his confusion.

Think of yourself when you're really confused. It's easy to confuse that look with being "disgusted" or "angry", especially when taken out of context.
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:24   Link #818
ickem
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Originally Posted by crisis View Post
Why am I the only one in the Sheryl camp who thinks Michael x Sheryl = HOT
'cause there's something wrong with you .

Anyways, I just feel strongly about Sheryl deserving what she *wants* and it's pretty obvious that Sheryl wants Alto. I haven't felt this strongly about what a character deserves in quite a long time. Sheryl is just that well written a character. She ranks right with Rakushun and Youko of 12 Kingdoms and Lafiel from Seikai for me as my all time favorite anime characters.

Michel is a cool character and all, but not the type of guy that should interest Sheryl, as she has been shown to be, in the romantic sense.
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:25   Link #819
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Originally Posted by crisis View Post
Why am I the only one in the Sheryl camp who thinks Michael x Sheryl = HOT
No, I'm with you. I think it would kick @ss if Sheryl would be the woman who straightened up the womanizer.
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Old 2008-07-14, 22:38   Link #820
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Originally Posted by crisis View Post
A nine year old kid can think what she/he wants without the overall context just as my kid sister can think Kamina from Gurren Lagann looks like a rapist. But if you use that to compare both pairings and it's why we're blind to Alto x Ranka, then all I can say is please don't say anything like this anymore because you have shown good arguments without resorting to something as sad as this. No one is saying you have to follow everyone's opinions and yes you're entitled to your own opinion but just make sure it's not based on so ridiculous that you risk endangering your credibility like someone almost did when he landed in 80% of everyone's ignore list.

I'm out, carry on people.
What is so ridiculous about seeing Alto's lack of enthusiasm in that screenshot? That was what his face looked like for 3 long seconds, didn't it? That's a fact, isn't it? From a surprised expression to a bland one. Unless there was a bubble on top of Alto saying "this girl CAN kiss", that scene can also be interpreted the other way. That's how I see it everytime I rewatched that scene. There were no spark. At all.

The second screenshot with Ranka, there's an indication that Alto took it personally if you look at how those flickers formed in his eyes. Tsk tsk...

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
Alto is stunned, then looks deeply at her, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE'S THINKING!
Trying to figure out what she's thinking is more likely, but "looking at her deeply"? lol

Trying to figure out what she's thinking does not absolutely indicate that the kiss had a personal positive effect on Alto. It can go either way. Am I wrong?

What makes it so absolute that just because Alto thinks Sheryl likes to mess with him, he would absolutely succumb to her if Sheryl starts getting serious? =/ Especially the Alto right now in the story. Please don't tell me it's because Westlo's super pro sheryl ending analysis said so.
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