AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-07-15, 17:05   Link #841
stray
aniki
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Send a message via AIM to stray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
@stray:
There's a difference between trying to elicit a response and trying to gauge a response. You can't be tricksey and giddy at the same time.
Sheryl can do anything!!

I don't remember if I had a point regarding the kiss, but I'll bite. I think I more or less agree with OD on this one, teasing him about it (thus joining the chorus of people who don't take Alto seriously) wasn't a smooth move. It's just straddling the fine line between pulling Alto closer, scaring him off, and pushing him away. But it goes back to stuff I was saying in the Alto thread, if she wants him to take her seriously, he needs to believe it's not going to be his family all over again.

As far as it being an unspoken question, though, I think she was asking it to herself as much (if not moreso) as she was asking it to Alto.

Quote:
Strength of character depends on how you act in spite of adversity, not in the absence of it. Everyone has problems, but most people sit around waiting for someone to rescue them. But when you have the guts to grab hold of the controls even in the face of fear, that's the mark of true strength.
You're right, but... that just doesn't go far enough. I hope this doesn't come off as preachy, but... Holding onto a glimmer of hope that keeps you going in the face of adversity is one thing; accepting failure, or defeat, being able to learn from the experience, and coming back a better, stronger person is moreso what I'm talking about. Those are the real defining moments, that's real strength, and it is no small thing in any sense. And, it's damn near (if not completely) impossible to do alone.

And, that's more or less where Sheryl sits right now, IMO.
stray is offline  
Old 2008-07-15, 17:30   Link #842
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
You're right, but... that just doesn't go far enough. I hope this doesn't come off as preachy, but... Holding onto a glimmer of hope that keeps you going in the face of adversity is one thing; accepting failure, or defeat, being able to learn from the experience, and coming back a better, stronger person is moreso what I'm talking about. Those are the real defining moments, that's real strength, and it is no small thing in any sense. And, it's damn near (if not completely) impossible to do alone.

And, that's more or less where Sheryl sits right now, IMO.
If anything, Sheryl walked through countless failures since the start of her life. She had survived with willpower, and have admitted and learned from the experiences of defeat to become what she is today. Through each of these encounters she emerged stronger. Of course, there is a problem with that as well, it made her lonely and not care for anyone around her until now.

To actually care for someone is probably going to be a new experience, I am interested to see how she will deal with it. Otherwise, she had dealt with everything in the past more or less alone.

- Tak
__________________
Come join the fun, you know you want to!

World of Tanks/Planes: Tankers, Pilots, Sailors! JOIN US!!

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2008-07-15, 19:19   Link #843
Swampstorm
Lovestruck Fool?
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Sheryl can do anything!!
Anything that is subject to her willpower, that is. She can't defy gravity, make herself immune to poison, or leap tall buildings in a single bound.

...Not yet, anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I don't remember if I had a point regarding the kiss, but I'll bite. I think I more or less agree with OD on this one, teasing him about it (thus joining the chorus of people who don't take Alto seriously) wasn't a smooth move.
You're right. It was an extremely awkward move, to be specific. But I can completely empathize with it, and I can see why it needed to be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
It's just straddling the fine line between pulling Alto closer, scaring him off, and pushing him away. But it goes back to stuff I was saying in the Alto thread, if she wants him to take her seriously, he needs to believe it's not going to be his family all over again.
This is also true.

Right now, Alto's main focus is on developing his piloting skills and his career. He just doesn't want to be burdened with other issues. So if Sheryl presses the question before he's ready, then he'll feel pressured into making a choice about their relationship. But the problem is that she'll never know without first asking. So it's a tricky issue to begin with.

Unfortunately, the best approach is to just throw yourself in fully and see what happens. It's not an easy thing for anyone to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
As far as it being an unspoken question, though, I think she was asking it to herself as much (if not moreso) as she was asking it to Alto.
If she was asking it of herself, then we would have seen a moment of introspection from her. Did you see something along those lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
You're right, but... that just doesn't go far enough. I hope this doesn't come off as preachy, but... Holding onto a glimmer of hope that keeps you going in the face of adversity is one thing; accepting failure, or defeat, being able to learn from the experience, and coming back a better, stronger person is moreso what I'm talking about. Those are the real defining moments, that's real strength, and it is no small thing in any sense.
I agree that you should always try to learn from your defeats. But the word defeat implies that the situation could potentially have been under your control.

Sheryl's situation regarding her family, for example, is not an issue of victory or defeat. It's painful, and she's openly willing to accept as much; there's no weakness in that. Her strength lies in the fact that she's adapted to her circumstances and found success in spite of them.

Sheryl's main weakness is that she just doesn't know when to cut and run. Basically, she's the type to use up all of her items on a hopeless boss fight. But while such behaviour makes more prudent minded individuals sigh in despair, there's also something incredibly endearing about her gutsiness.

We never know what's possible and what isn't without people who are willing to try to push past those limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
And, it's damn near (if not completely) impossible to do alone.
It only seems that way because nobody usually tries. But those who do are an inspiration to everyone around them.

Unless you're in a sentai show, of course. In that case, combine your powers to win!

Either way, Sheryl is a bit too impatient to sit around waiting to be rescued from her inner demons.
__________________
Swampstorm is offline  
Old 2008-07-15, 23:06   Link #844
stray
aniki
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Send a message via AIM to stray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If anything, Sheryl walked through countless failures since the start of her life. She had survived with willpower, and have admitted and learned from the experiences of defeat to become what she is today. Through each of these encounters she emerged stronger. Of course, there is a problem with that as well, it made her lonely and not care for anyone around her until now.
Hmmm... considering how shocked she was that things weren't going so well flying the blue Valkyrie, I've got to wonder about that. Seems kind of like "watashi wa Sheryl desu!!!" has been doing pretty well for her…

Quote:
To actually care for someone is probably going to be a new experience, I am interested to see how she will deal with it. Otherwise, she had dealt with everything in the past more or less alone.
I don't disagree with the loneliness angle per se, but I think she's past that hump. That indifference and bitchyness from the early episodes kind of melted away when she started crying on stage in episode 7...

Now I’d say she’s moved on to a crash course on human relationships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Right now, Alto's main focus is on developing his piloting skills and his career. He just doesn't want to be burdened with other issues. So if Sheryl presses the question before he's ready, then he'll feel pressured into making a choice about their relationship. But the problem is that she'll never know without first asking. So it's a tricky issue to begin with.

If she was asking it of herself, then we would have seen a moment of introspection from her. Did you see something along those lines?
Not really… but I think I’m over that line of thought; the reprocussions are the same, and I still don’t think she committed to it… but I really think it had nothing to do with anything or anyone but Sheryl. They were talking about kissing, and Sheryl just went for it. Pure impulse. It’s hotter that way.

Quote:
I agree that you should always try to learn from your defeats. But the word defeat implies that the situation could potentially have been under your control.
I had the word in quotes initially, because I didn’t really like the choice of wording, but I couldn’t think of a better one. The gist of it is this: “be like a weeble wobble”

Quote:
Sheryl's situation regarding her family, for example, is not an issue of victory or defeat. It's painful, and she's openly willing to accept as much; there's no weakness in that. Her strength lies in the fact that she's adapted to her circumstances and found success in spite of them.
No, and there’s something to be said for making lemonade out of lemons (I really have a fetish for colloquialisms ), but my point from the start has been: at what cost? She’s probably going to turn 18 soon (because, you know we need more birthdays as plot points this series) and her only meaningful relationship (aside from Alto and Ranka) is a cyborg bitch who tried to kill her.

Realistically, everyone has got their insecurities and coping mechanisms, but the farther they take you the harder they are to let go of. And, I love the adaptability, but I question the foundation; she’s literally to a point where she just can’t be “Sheryl Nome” and succeed.

Quote:
Sheryl's main weakness is that she just doesn't know when to cut and run. Basically, she's the type to use up all of her items on a hopeless boss fight. But while such behaviour makes more prudent minded individuals sigh in despair, there's also something incredibly endearing about her gutsiness.
More or less exactly what I was getting at.

Quote:
We never know what's possible and what isn't without people who are willing to try to push past those limits.
Even the best fall down sometimes… at least in real life… but there comes a point where endearing can turn to frustration. Lord knows when I was watching Robotech as a kid I was yelling at Rick… and then again at Hikaru… and let’s not bring up Spike from Cowboy Bebop.

Quote:
It only seems that way because nobody usually tries. But those who do are an inspiration to everyone around them.

Unless you're in a sentai show, of course. In that case, combine your powers to win!

Either way, Sheryl is a bit too impatient to sit around waiting to be rescued from her inner demons.
Nobody can be rescued from their inner demons, the decision to let go of those is on them. But what I’m getting at is that no one is an island. Alto is starting to realize that, and I think Sheryl has too, to a lesser extent. It doesn’t mean it’s a good foundation for a romantic relationship, but really, if you can’t bring yourself to believe in the people around you… that’s not even living. There’s no shame in asking for help, or accepting help... ooh, I’ll take this opportunity to segue into one last point…

As the lone MichaelXSheryl shipper (thanks tho, to crisis, and my handful of other MXS side story supporters) but when you think about it…
a. Michael’s really the only one who’s even considered (probably the only one who understands) what Sheryl’s feelings are.
b. Michael welcomed her into the flying program, and into their flying group (and, of course, this did not make Alto happy)
c. He basically tried to spell things out for Alto… albeit with limited success
d. He kisses her ass left, right, and sideways. Backhanded compliments are even better.

So when you think about it, Ranka has Nanase, and Sheryl… hrm… who has had her back most of this time?

And, I’m psychoanalyzed out. This post isn’t up to snuff, IMO, but I’ll be in the peanut gallery if anyone needs me.

Oh, and one last last thing... BreraXKlan is my new W1N!!!

a. Brera is into lolis (Ranka?)
b. He was so clearly courting her by shooting her down back in episode 9 (edit: not to mention in Macross that's akin to a marriage proposal)
c. They both have attitude
d. Matching red VF-27 and Q-Rau = win

Last edited by stray; 2008-07-16 at 00:06.
stray is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 01:42   Link #845
Swampstorm
Lovestruck Fool?
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Not really… but I think I’m over that line of thought; the reprocussions are the same, and I still don’t think she committed to it… but I really think it had nothing to do with anything or anyone but Sheryl. They were talking about kissing, and Sheryl just went for it. Pure impulse. It’s hotter that way.
I'm not saying that she went in with the kiss in order to gauge Alto's feelings, but she was definitely gauging his feelings afterwards.



The problem is that Alto is a fairly unexpressive guy. When Sheryl feels something, she immediately shows it in her expressions, as you can see. Alto, by contrast, tends to keep a tight lid on his feelings; so he tends to come across as rather stoic between outbursts of emotion. When he does show pleasure, it's almost always in the form of a quiet smile.

There's actually something similar to the above scene that takes place in episode three. Ranka is going on as usual about she wants to achieve some dream of hers, when Alto suddenly interjects and tells her that she can't. The camera then switches over to him and he gives this blank stare for about three seconds, while there's a pause hanging in the air.


Even from the audience's perspective, you really can't make anything of Alto's expression. Is he joking? Is he being insulting? What's going on in his head? Even Ranka gives up after a few seconds of trying to make sense of his response and just assumes that he's serious.

It's not a matter of commitment. I can see from Sheryl's expressions that her feelings are all there, and I can also see why she'd spook and make a run for it. Hell, I would, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I had the word in quotes initially, because I didn’t really like the choice of wording, but I couldn’t think of a better one. The gist of it is this: “be like a weeble wobble”
That's adaptability. Sheryl can't go home to Galaxy? No problem, she'll just go to school on Frontier. Sheryl's song doesn't suit the movie? No problem, she'll write you a new one. Michael is injured and they're stuck out in the middle of a war zone? No problem, Sheryl will pilot the VF to safety herself.

Were she the type of person to stop and reflect on things, she'd probably be more inclined to dwell on them. Where some people might adapt by changing their mindset, Sheryl instead adapts by taking action. She doesn't acclimatize herself to defeat; when she hits it, she backs up and manuvers around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
No, and there’s something to be said for making lemonade out of lemons (I really have a fetish for colloquialisms ), but my point from the start has been: at what cost? She’s probably going to turn 18 soon (because, you know we need more birthdays as plot points this series) and her only meaningful relationship (aside from Alto and Ranka) is a cyborg bitch who tried to kill her.
The thing is, you can't seek out a relationship simply for the sake of having a relationship. Seeing how friendly and outgoing she is, I think the issue is more one of lack of opportunity rather than choice. Her fame is fairly intimidating in itself, so it's probably difficult for anyone to approach her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Realistically, everyone has got their insecurities and coping mechanisms, but the farther they take you the harder they are to let go of. And, I love the adaptability, but I question the foundation; she’s literally to a point where she just can’t be “Sheryl Nome” and succeed.
A coping mechanism simply describes how you deal with stressful situations. Even ideally, the point isn't to "let go" of them. Mature coping mechanisms often involve transforming a negative impulse or emotion into a positive one. These qualities are possessed by healthy adults.

I think the distinction between "Sheryl Nome" being a healthy or unhealthy concept depends on whether or not Sheryl acknowledges her vulnerabilities. I'm inclined to think that she does, but simply puts those emotions to work to gain the strength to succeed.

It's counterintuitive, because the typical character who's brimming with confidence is usually in denial. In Sheryl's case, she uses her confidence to build up her spirits before pushing forward against adversity. As such, her coping strategy is more along the lines of sublimation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Even the best fall down sometimes… at least in real life… but there comes a point where endearing can turn to frustration. Lord knows when I was watching Robotech as a kid I was yelling at Rick… and then again at Hikaru… and let’s not bring up Spike from Cowboy Bebop.
I'm yet to have a favourite character who didn't frustrate me greatly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Nobody can be rescued from their inner demons, the decision to let go of those is on them. But what I’m getting at is that no one is an island. Alto is starting to realize that, and I think Sheryl has too, to a lesser extent. It doesn’t mean it’s a good foundation for a romantic relationship, but really, if you can’t bring yourself to believe in the people around you… that’s not even living. There’s no shame in asking for help, or accepting help...
Sheryl does believe in the people around her. In episode six, Sheryl gives Alto her earring and accepts his role to pilot. There were no guarantees that he would make it out or alive, or that he could save Galaxy, but she still put her faith in him, regardless.

Even with Ranka, she could have easily have used her influence to raise Ranka to fame. But she believed in Ranka's talent, and let her follow her own path to success (contrast this with, say, Nanase, who feels compelled to micromanage her friend's life).

I don't think that she's afraid of asking for help. It's just that she's competant enough to handle most things on her own, as people should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
As the lone MichaelXSheryl shipper (thanks tho, to crisis, and my handful of other MXS side story supporters) but when you think about it…
a. Michael’s really the only one who’s even considered (probably the only one who understands) what Sheryl’s feelings are.
b. Michael welcomed her into the flying program, and into their flying group (and, of course, this did not make Alto happy)
c. He basically tried to spell things out for Alto… albeit with limited success
d. He kisses her ass left, right, and sideways. Backhanded compliments are even better.

So when you think about it, Ranka has Nanase, and Sheryl… hrm… who has had her back most of this time?
Well, as of episode thirteen. He had Ranka's back before that.

Michael may be superior to Nanase, but that does little good because he's also unconcious. This worries me somewhat, because I'm suspecting that the writers might keep him out cold for a while, given what he knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
And, I’m psychoanalyzed out. This post isn’t up to snuff, IMO, but I’ll be in the peanut gallery if anyone needs me.
I think that I've got a pretty good idea of your current perspectives, regardless. We'll see where this goes.
__________________
Swampstorm is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 02:02   Link #846
mike_s_6
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
All this talk about stars and relationships remind me of this Madonna interview I watched way back then. She was asked how many friends she has. She answered - "Three". Perhaps, when you're really popular, there are a lot of people who approach you to become your friend, but it becomes hard to discern if they are for real, or they're just into you because you're popular.

In Sheryl's case, she'd probably answer - "One". And that one being revealed to be a false "friend" of hers will cause a lot of drama. And I'd like to see what happens to her.

Sheryl, if given the chance to grow up the same way as other people would, would probably have friends too. I'd probably be one, if she likes it.

Popularity isn't an artists' only bane. It's also the fact that you have to travel. Imagine yourself as a kid and having to travel here and there all the time... it's hard to make real friends (I actually threw a tantrum once when my parents decided to put me in a better school when I was a kid...) At this, I think it's good that she's becoming acquainted with Alto and gang, first real friends I suppose
mike_s_6 is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 03:23   Link #847
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Michael may be superior to Nanase, but that does little good because he's also unconcious. This worries me somewhat, because I'm suspecting that the writers might keep him out cold for a while, given what he knows.
I am thinking amnesia due to the knock to his head. Itīs a time-honoured device on how to delay critical plot developments.
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 07:25   Link #848
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post

That's adaptability. Sheryl can't go home to Galaxy? No problem, she'll just go to school on Frontier. Sheryl's song doesn't suit the movie? No problem, she'll write you a new one. Michael is injured and they're stuck out in the middle of a war zone? No problem, Sheryl will pilot the VF to safety herself.
Hey, I coined that word!

- Tak
__________________
Come join the fun, you know you want to!

World of Tanks/Planes: Tankers, Pilots, Sailors! JOIN US!!

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 10:49   Link #849
justinstrife
Queen Sheryl's Protector
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: John Galt Railroad
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to justinstrife Send a message via Skype™ to justinstrife
Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post

As the lone MichaelXSheryl shipper (thanks tho, to crisis, and my handful of other MXS side story supporters) but when you think about it…
a. Michael’s really the only one who’s even considered (probably the only one who understands) what Sheryl’s feelings are.
b. Michael welcomed her into the flying program, and into their flying group (and, of course, this did not make Alto happy)
c. He basically tried to spell things out for Alto… albeit with limited success
d. He kisses her ass left, right, and sideways. Backhanded compliments are even better.
Sheryl doesn't want someone who kisses her ass left, right, and sideways. She also doesn't like easy men.

The only person who's stood up to her and countered her crazy antics and chided her on them, is Alto. He's the only one who doesn't see her as Sheryl Nome.

The Sheryl x Michael thing is as likely as Aeris x Cloud AFTER disc 1...
__________________
justinstrife is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 11:34   Link #850
Swampstorm
Lovestruck Fool?
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Hey, I coined that word!

- Tak
Not the word, but the overall concept. But your idea really captured the essence of how she handles adversity. I wish I knew where you posted it.

I'm reminded of that blog entry titled "May 8, 2059":
"For instance, if I lose a charm, it just means that it becomes someone else's charm."

It's one thing to try and shrug off an unhappy event, but it's another thing altogether to turn the experience into something positive. That's the difference between acting tough and being tough.
__________________
Swampstorm is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 12:58   Link #851
ani_d
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 28
All right. I finally managed to get to replying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
your interpretations of scenes aren't exactly foolproof, neither are mine
Thank you. You are actually aware. No need to bring up your own failed Sheryl predictions in 13 and radioactive earrings ^_^ lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Did you even bother to read what you replied to in the first place? Sheryl laughing the kiss off in episode 10 confirmed for Alto that what he said to Michael in episode 8 was true.
Actually, that kiss in 10 isn't the only scene that can confirm for Alto that Sheryl likes to mess with him. It was all over in that same episode 8 too, but that's beside the point....

The bottomline of your post is that: Alto will also fall for Sheryl once she starts to really go for Alto.

The bottomline of my reply is: Even if Sheryl takes her feelings for Alto seriously, there's no guarantee that Alto will start returning her feelings.

Am I making myself clearer now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Hence his reaction to her in episode 11 until she mentioned the present. Look at everything after the present until Ranka's arrival on Gallia IV. His overwhelming enthusiasm to get to Gallia IV so he can fly in a real sky,
The reason why Alto chose to go with Sheryl was not because of her. He didn't choose Sheryl, he chose the sky. There are also no overwhelming enthusiasm from Alto's part to get to Galia 4. He left Frontier masking a bitter face. His behavior was like: "I like the sky so I'm going to run away with this Sheryl and forget the others."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
his concern for a collapsed Sheryl, his complete shock at Sheryl's attempt to get up that made him intend to try a suicidal rescue attempt.
His concern for Sheryl is anything but romantic. He's her friend. Of course, he'll get concerned. Although, it would've been much nicer if he bothered to jump out of his Valkyrie just to get to where Sheryl is. And yes, in that same episode, he also valued Sheryl's sentiments which was why he took on those Zentradis by himself. However, this doesn't imply hidden romantic feelings from Alto. He will do the same thing for Michael and Luca.

Notice how Alto didn't really have that much of a problem entrusting her to Michael lol Even if she's feeling ill, she's safe with Michael. He can breathe easy. When Ranka got kidnapped, he was willing enough to trust her and Michael to save Ranka. In 14, he grouped her with Michael after he used their fold pack. Sheryl also made him promise to come back safely--take note, this is genuine concern coming from her already--but what did she get from the guy? A business-like appreciation. He looked at her eye to eye, yet he wasn't even surprised that Sheryl was showing this much concern about him. Her concern could not hit home.

Seeing Sheryl's lack of impact on Alto (compared to Ranka who is ALSO on the friend zone), how are you able to deduce that Alto's bound to feel the same way towards her once she stops playing around? Don't worry, I know it's definitely not because of Romance 101 and anime history or Kawamori history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
No my evidence is in the show and the way the romance has been built up.
As things stand, Ranka matters to Alto as much as Alto matters to her. The two will gladly lay their life on the line for each other. Their flashbacks contain one another. They went to great lengths for each other's sake and shined while they're at it. You have to generate a better argument to show how Sheryl will able to break that honest bond once she realizes her own feelings. The Sheryl evidence from the show clearly isn't good enough. You might want to watch out for future episodes first and get some objective evidences for a change to promote your Sheryl ending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Lame ani_d, please pick up your game. Alto is not jealous around Ranka and he didn't completely dismiss Sheryl's fame as shown 5 minutes later after that comment.
Wasn't the reason Sheryl was attracted to Alto was because "he doesn't treat her as Sheryl Nome"? :| If I remember correctly, OD's whole point was that Alto can't easily be swayed by fame or looks. She is right. How is that a fallacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo
Also you need to realize that a lot of the stuff BleahOD said actually works to Sheryl's advantage, it's all a matter of perspective and "understanding". I can use 30-40% of her argument for a Pro Sheryl and Alto post...
Yes, why don't you do this? Since the story itself doesn't portray Alto and Ranka's inclination to each other as a bad thing, it will be easier to debunk common misconceptions of Sheryl fans and get some facts straighten out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
ani_d has this strange thought in her head, that Macross Frontier is really, Macross Ranka! That's why everything is slanted in her thinking. This comes up again in another thread, where she criticizes Sheryl fans, for trying to turn this into Macross Sheryl.
Between Ranka and Sheryl, Ranka has more focus--be it love and career. I just stated the obvious. Besides, I know that you know that I never once said Ranka was the main MAIN character of Frontier. That was you. Maybe you should stop dreaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Sheryl doesn't have as much room to grow, and I'm not sure Alto does either. This is why I believe there is more emphasis on Ranka, than Alto and Sheryl, as she is more of the main, 'main' character of the 3.
I for one think Sheryl has a lot of room to grow, especially Alto. The difference between Sheryl and Alto is that, Alto doesn't have any problems when it comes to focus in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
This explains why ani_d only sees the kiss in episode 10, as growth for Ranka, and not growth for both Ranka AND Sheryl. The whole point of that scene was to show the viewers, Sheryl's growing attraction and feelings towards Alto, as well as making Ranka figure out as well, her feelings for him. It was very well played IMO. The only downer is, some people either aren't sharp enough, or are too narrow-minded, to realize the significance of that scene for BOTH GIRLS.
In episode 11, did Sheryl even look back on what she did last episode and think about her feelings for Alto? I was expecting some awkwardness between Alto and Sheryl, but nada. It's like nothing happened. Is that supposed to be Sheryl's development? And Westlo is saying that the romance of the story is actually building up from this said kiss? We just "don't" notice it lol

From what I can tell, the only person who reflected on what happened last episode was Ranka, and that's because the story has been highlighting her feelings instead of Sheryl. That is also one of the things that built the storyline where it is currently at right now.

You're saying I'm biased for calling the Saonome kiss a plot device for Ranka's growth, yet Sheryl has no insight of that scene. At all. Poor Sheryl then, her recollection of her own feelings resulting from that kiss must've been skipped. ^__^ Let's face it. The focus is not equal. Whatever character growth that kiss was supposed to do with Sheryl, it didn't show. The story left the speculation to the perceptive Sheryl fans and just focused on awakening Ranka's feelings brought out by that same kiss. I guess that makes me narrow-minded for not bothering to speculate on whether that kiss held special meaning to Sheryl or not. Once the story starts caring, I will too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
If anything, Sheryl walked through countless failures since the start of her life. She had survived with willpower, and have admitted and learned from the experiences of defeat to become what she is today.
I just have to nitpick this. You sound like you actually saw Sheryl go through countless failures in her life and survived with willpower. We all know she works hard as Sheryl Nome, but we didn't really see how it happened. I don't recall a flashback of hers striving towards stardom the way Ranka did. Are you sure Grace just didn't find her, brainwashed her to thinking she's the great "Sheryl Nome" and made it happen? Grace seems to be really happy whenever she says, "I'm Sheryl Nome, my job is to sing blah blah blah". How did she meet Grace, btw? As things stand right now, everything about Sheryl--other than she's the top idol hailed by Galaxy--can very well be a lie. I would stop worshipping her about her past since we don't even know much about her background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis
Teletha summed up my intentions nicely; I realize that it can get aggravating at times, I would be annoyed too if I were faced with pompous people like me, Westlo and Tak and his Tanks LMAO , so there's a lot of butting heads going on (which I happily jumped into as well!) which is why it's cool that you're keeping the Ranka fort as steady as you can.
It's not really that hard to keep Ranka fort steady so long as majority of the story, the manga, magazine scans so far support Ranka and Alto. The ammos are everywhere lol Maybe it'll get tricky once Sheryl tries to compete for Alto, or maybe not. I think...if the Ranka fans are in the majority in this thread, a lone Sheryl fan trying to prove a Sheryl ending in this shipping war will be KO'd in no time. It's like a cleris in the midst of the Clotis with their official Nomura interviews + storyline. Peace!
__________________
ani_d is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 13:34   Link #852
zalem
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
Actually, that kiss in 10 isn't the only scene that can confirm for Alto that Sheryl likes to mess with him. It was all over in that same episode 8 too, but that's beside the point....

The bottomline of your post is that: Alto will also fall for Sheryl once she starts to really go for Alto.

The bottomline of my reply is: Even if Sheryl takes her feelings for Alto seriously, there's no guarantee that Alto will start returning her feelings.

Am I making myself clearer now?
I think Sheryl is definitely starting to have feelings for him, but at this time I see no romantic feelings from Alto towards Sheryl. So yeah, if at this point in time Sheryl suddenly gets serious there is no guarantee of Alto accepting her. There must be some sort of new development between the two before Alto can believably look at her romantically. Though that wouldn't be hard to do, there are plenty of episodes left for this.


Quote:
You're saying I'm biased for calling the Saonome kiss a plot device for Ranka's growth, yet Sheryl has no insight of that scene. At all. Poor Sheryl then, her recollection of her own feelings resulting from that kiss must've been skipped. ^__^ Let's face it. The focus is not equal. Whatever character growth that kiss was supposed to do with Sheryl, it didn't show. The story left the speculation to the perceptive Sheryl fans and just focused on awakening Ranka's feelings brought out by that same kiss. I guess that makes me narrow-minded for not bothering to speculate on whether that kiss held special meaning to Sheryl or not. Once the story starts caring, I will too.
While I do think Sheryl's reaction and blushing gives us some insight into Sheryl's thoughts at the moment, I do agree that the whole scene just screams plot device for Ranka. It's just one of those really typical scenes that you see with the ultimate love interest catching the man with the "other woman." That scene convinced me even more that it'll be a RankaXAlto ending.

*runs away from fellow Sheryl fans*

Believe me, I don't want it to be the case but that's what it looks like to me. But maybe you guys with more experience with romance type anime can better predict things then me. I don't usually go for romance things....Macross is the closest I get to that.
__________________
zalem is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 14:07   Link #853
stray
aniki
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Send a message via AIM to stray
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I'm not saying that she went in with the kiss in order to gauge Alto's feelings, but she was definitely gauging his feelings afterwards.

The problem is that Alto is a fairly unexpressive guy. When Sheryl feels something, she immediately shows it in her expressions, as you can see. Alto, by contrast, tends to keep a tight lid on his feelings; so he tends to come across as rather stoic between outbursts of emotion. When he does show pleasure, it's almost always in the form of a quiet smile.

There's actually something similar to the above scene that takes place in episode three. Ranka is going on as usual about she wants to achieve some dream of hers, when Alto suddenly interjects and tells her that she can't. The camera then switches over to him and he gives this blank stare for about three seconds, while there's a pause hanging in the air.

Even from the audience's perspective, you really can't make anything of Alto's expression. Is he joking? Is he being insulting? What's going on in his head? Even Ranka gives up after a few seconds of trying to make sense of his response and just assumes that he's serious.

It's not a matter of commitment. I can see from Sheryl's expressions that her feelings are all there, and I can also see why she'd spook and make a run for it. Hell, I would, too.
I don't disagree, (and, I admire the fact she went for it) but my beef with her course of action, in simplest terms, comes down to the fact she didn't leave it open-ended enough.

Quote:
That's adaptability. Sheryl can't go home to Galaxy? No problem, she'll just go to school on Frontier. Sheryl's song doesn't suit the movie? No problem, she'll write you a new one. Michael is injured and they're stuck out in the middle of a war zone? No problem, Sheryl will pilot the VF to safety herself.

Were she the type of person to stop and reflect on things, she'd probably be more inclined to dwell on them. Where some people might adapt by changing their mindset, Sheryl instead adapts by taking action. She doesn't acclimatize herself to defeat; when she hits it, she backs up and manuvers around it.
I know what you're getting at; I like to fancy myself as a fair example of the trait. Which... is probably a big part of the reason I'm so hard on the girl. Regardless, it's the way she is with the little things that makes me think she's not grounded.

Quote:
The thing is, you can't seek out a relationship simply for the sake of having a relationship. Seeing how friendly and outgoing she is, I think the issue is more one of lack of opportunity rather than choice. Her fame is fairly intimidating in itself, so it's probably difficult for anyone to approach her.

A coping mechanism simply describes how you deal with stressful situations. Even ideally, the point isn't to "let go" of them. Mature coping mechanisms often involve transforming a negative impulse or emotion into a positive one. These qualities are possessed by healthy adults.
True, in principle.

Quote:
I think the distinction between "Sheryl Nome" being a healthy or unhealthy concept depends on whether or not Sheryl acknowledges her vulnerabilities. I'm inclined to think that she does, but simply puts those emotions to work to gain the strength to succeed.

It's counterintuitive, because the typical character who's brimming with confidence is usually in denial. In Sheryl's case, she uses her confidence to build up her spirits before pushing forward against adversity. As such, her coping strategy is more along the lines of sublimation.
I think I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this point, as I doubt we're going to see eye to eye. We can WAFO on this one, and revisit the issue down the line.

Quote:
I'm yet to have a favourite character who didn't frustrate me greatly.
*sigh* Sad, but true...

Quote:
Sheryl does believe in the people around her. In episode six, Sheryl gives Alto her earring and accepts his role to pilot. There were no guarantees that he would make it out or alive, or that he could save Galaxy, but she still put her faith in him, regardless.

Even with Ranka, she could have easily have used her influence to raise Ranka to fame. But she believed in Ranka's talent, and let her follow her own path to success (contrast this with, say, Nanase, who feels compelled to micromanage her friend's life).
With great power comes great responsibility? I'll follow this up below...

Quote:
I don't think that she's afraid of asking for help. It's just that she's competant enough to handle most things on her own, as people should be.
I just disagree with the last point in principle, through and through... I mean obviously no one is going to hold your hand in life, or bail you out all the time, and there's a huuuuuge difference between someone who wants attention and someone who's really down and out, but in the grand scheme of things you really find out who you are in life through your interactions with others. I'm not really trying to rant too much, because this is more a philosophy of life issue (and I'm doing a shitty job of it so far) but showing strength, even if maybe a bit misguided, is the easy part; letting anyone see your weaknesses, your vulnerability, that's a real challenge. And, really, the more there is at stake, the more situations there are going to be when, if there's a common goal, I mean... your weakness is someone else's strength.

I lul'ed at the sentai show crack, but at least with part of that I kind of feel like I'm extoling their virtues. Really tho, there are huge elements of life lesson morality plays in them.

At the end of the day, though, there's nothing whatsoever wrong IMO with a romantic relationship where one partner's strength can balance out the other's weaknesses, and vice versa.

Quote:
Well, as of episode thirteen. He had Ranka's back before that.

Michael may be superior to Nanase, but that does little good because he's also unconcious. This worries me somewhat, because I'm suspecting that the writers might keep him out cold for a while, given what he knows.
What I'm talking about goes back to about episode 8, it just started being pronounced in episode 13. I mean, he could have stuck with Alto and just told her to go fuck herself and rot with her fans in flying school (like Alto... kind of wanted to do in episode 8), but he shows her how to fly, and really brought her into the gang. IIRC he mentioned something to Alto about underestimating her popularity, He draped the towel around her in episode 11? I think... and told her to take care of herself.

And, to go back to a point OD made, Alto, being Alto, probably would tell her to fuck off alot more if it wasn't for the combination of Michael, and the earring guilt trip... but I digress.

I mean really, we don't know jack about Michael's motives (Alto figures he just wanted to hit on Grace) but my point is that... he's not a playa, he's a pimp.

And yeah, he might be unconscious for a while, sadly.

Quote:
I think that I've got a pretty good idea of your current perspectives, regardless. We'll see where this goes.
I'll drink to some WAFO.
stray is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 14:39   Link #854
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
I just have to nitpick this. You sound like you actually saw Sheryl go through countless failures in her life and survived with willpower. We all know she works hard as Sheryl Nome, but we didn't really see how it happened. I don't recall a flashback of hers striving towards stardom the way Ranka did. Are you sure Grace just didn't find her, brainwashed her to thinking she's the great "Sheryl Nome" and made it happen? Grace seems to be really happy whenever she says, "I'm Sheryl Nome, my job is to sing blah blah blah". How did she meet Grace, btw? As things stand right now, everything about Sheryl--other than she's the top idol hailed by Galaxy--can very well be a lie. I would stop worshipping her about her past since we don't even know much about her background.
If the manga is to be considered, then Sheryl already proved herself to be second only to Mylene Jenius (how you compare that realistically, is another story). Clearly she had went through the trouble to even compete. Moreover, walking through countless failures is a good hypothesis, seeing how she started out lonely, as a child on the Galaxy. Obviously she had to go through a lot of crap to become where she is today. It is no surprise at all that she is conceited and excessively prideful. Just because we didn't see it progressed fully, does not mean it never happened.

You cite Grace, ok, good, then can we hear from you, a reasonable hypothesis as to how Grace suddenly just... made it happen? As for the "I am Sheryl Nome" bit, its obvious Grace is playing Sheryl as a fool, using her own pride against her. If she had indeed brainwashed her at all, then why not keep her a submissive pet? Especially considering Grace's aim was to kill her anyway. That said, I cannot find myself agreeing with your arguments at all.

Then you said "I would stop worshiping her about her past since we don't even know much about her background."

Excuse me, but while I do have a lot of appreciation for Sheryl as a character, worshiping the bitch is a vastly different story. Please don't take things out of context.

- Tak
__________________
Come join the fun, you know you want to!

World of Tanks/Planes: Tankers, Pilots, Sailors! JOIN US!!

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2008-07-16, 17:49   Link #855
stray
aniki
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Send a message via AIM to stray
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_s_6 View Post
All this talk about stars and relationships remind me of this Madonna interview I watched way back then. She was asked how many friends she has. She answered - "Three". Perhaps, when you're really popular, there are a lot of people who approach you to become your friend, but it becomes hard to discern if they are for real, or they're just into you because you're popular.
Derailing, but... while I'm nowhere near gay enough to be a Madonna fan these days, I still have a ton of respect for the woman. She really had this intense level of frankness in interviews and articles. I can't see how Sheryl's character isn't paying homage to artists like her on some level.
stray is offline  
Old 2008-07-17, 00:10   Link #856
cheesie
Dame Cheesie
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by ani_d View Post
It's not really that hard to keep Ranka fort steady so long as majority of the story, the manga, magazine scans so far support Ranka and Alto. The ammos are everywhere lol
Enjoy it while you can.

Quote:
It's like a cleris in the midst of the Clotis with their official Nomura interviews + storyline. Peace!
Not really, excluding you, justinstrife and a few others, a majority of the Clotis are rabid idiots who beat the horse dead, resurrected it and then beat it dead again, totally deaf to reason. A few Cleris were like that before, that's true too. (The one thing about the ending is that even though it disproves both sides' assumptions of one canon pairing, both women are shown to be very important to Cloud. Cleris assumed Cloud will be entirely focused on Aerith when Tifa was watching his back the whole time, and Cloti assumed Cloud was entirely focused on Tifa when Aerith has always been in his heart. IMO, both women's importance to Cloud made each other's love stories so alive : the death of Aerith made the Cloti pairing bittersweet and beautiful in that Cloud has gone through such a hard journey in his heart to find a second love again with Tifa, and on the other side, Cloud has come such a long way from his childhood love for Tifa as he found gentle love with Aerith whose death permanently scarred his heart, but found the will to live on, with her living conscious living in his heart forever.) It's worked in a way that both sides can have their cake and eat it. Downplaying the two pairings would make the two somewhat trivial, really... that's how I see it.

Sort of like how taking out Alto x Ranka's rabu rabu story right now would diminish the crackling excitement of the inevitable Alto x Sheryl pairing.
cheesie is offline  
Old 2008-07-17, 01:13   Link #857
mike_s_6
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Then you said "I would stop worshiping her about her past since we don't even know much about her background."

- Tak

Maybe that's how she sees her own fandom of Ranka - "Worshipping". See, if you try to defend Sheryl, and she does the same for Ranka, and she calls your action "worshipping Sheryl", then what do you call what she's doing? *shrugs*

By the way, how much of Ranka's past do we know? Dun dun dun... I think we know more about Mikhail than any of the three main characters as of the moment.
mike_s_6 is offline  
Old 2008-07-17, 02:21   Link #858
ani_d
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_s_6 View Post
Maybe that's how she sees her own fandom of Ranka - "Worshipping". See, if you try to defend Sheryl, and she does the same for Ranka, and she calls your action "worshipping Sheryl", then what do you call what she's doing? *shrugs*
Or maybe I just happened to see this quote in his sig

"When the valkyrie in front of Sheryl is destroyed, the one who follows it, takes its place and stands in front of her! The idol is more important than any of you! You say you are here to serve humanity, I say you are here to die for the Galactic Fairy!"

Sorry Tak, I guess I overestimated your love for Sheryl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis
Not really, excluding you, justinstrife and a few others, a majority of the Clotis are rabid idiots who beat the horse dead, resurrected it and then beat it dead again, totally deaf to reason.
Spoiler for FF7:
__________________
ani_d is offline  
Old 2008-07-17, 03:36   Link #859
daimonth
Kohaku Law Firm
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
I got it from a chinese forum but judging from info within the blogs there is an implication that at the begining of episode 9 Sheryl and Alto was in a big fight and havent talked to each other for several days.

From blog entry:
May 12- Sheryl joins Mihoshi comments on the school cafe food.

May 13- Gets called 'hair growing on the heart' decides to beat the crap of 'the guy' who called her that the next day.

May 15-Shery comments on understanding what it means to want to hear 'certain persons' voice even if the conversation can be infuriating. She went on to certify this.

Ep 9 -Alto complains about Sheryl being in the school and went on to hassel Mikhail incessantly. He was pretty pissed off for the first bit even yelling at Mikhail saying that he don't need Mikhails help in that first vajra encounter. When Alto gets treated in the infirmary he said something to the effect of 'That one too and this one too, they all just know to attack from ambush.' (Original line(?)- どいつもこいつも、こそこそ蔭から撃つだけで、それするは出来ないやつか?Two people were mentioned.) Gets told that 'everyone has their reasons'. Alto gets a thoughtful look on his face and next scene we see Alto talking to Sheryl on the phone about her documentary.

May 17 blog entry- Sheryl talk about how her documentary name was passed 99 to 1. (we all know who that 1 is )

Judging from the time flow- Sheryl smacked Alto silly (Sheryl trained boxing back in galaxy, in ep 5 she out ran Alto so it probably hurt..) on May 14 then proceed to go into cold war with him for the next few days. During this time Alto continuously complained about Sheryl (per begining of ep9) then they made up during the middle of ep9 (most likely Alto called Sheryl after the talk in the infirmary). So Altos action in the begining of ep9 was because they had a lovers quarrel
daimonth is offline  
Old 2008-07-17, 04:05   Link #860
mike_s_6
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
^The May 13 blog entry has been completely mis-translated by wherever you got it. I don't know where to start. Ackem, please.
mike_s_6 is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
characters

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.