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Old 2010-10-28, 13:52   Link #2101
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Then again, can you show me the number I was asking for?? You are just restating what you said basically

I am not gonna discuss the movie part with you since you haven't seen the movie yet
What number? You never asked me for a number.

A creator receiving criticism for something doesn't have to be by e-mail, someone on a forum criticizing a work or creator is still viable as the creator is still being criticized at the end of the day. In fact that tends to show more than e-mails, as it is a show of the immediate reaction of fans to the work, or character. It doesn't have to be by e-mail. And also judging by the way he reacted to questions in interviews regarding Ranka he was very much aware of the criticism.

To say differently is to completely ignore the knee-jerk reactions that fans across the globe had towards her character in the last episodes. Just like the love triangle we know that Kawamori received a lot of criticism for not ending it, but we don't need e-mails to prove it.

By the way e-mails are something that are private. There is no way to tell whether or not a creator receives a direct e-mail criticizing him/her on the work that they created.

In other words your being very unrealistic.
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Old 2010-10-28, 14:06   Link #2102
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I did ask you for number lol...how many TV viewers have expressed their views in internet...

At the end of the day you only have "internet forum" to "prove" your so called "criticism against Ranka"...I am just trying to suggest that internet forum doesn't equal to real life...If a company only uses opinion from internet as the only mean of market research then that company is doomed (not to mention that there are so many anime discussion forums...have you visited them all..not just "I heard a guy who said ppl hate Ranka on another forum" ??)

I don't wanna put more fuel into fire so I would just stop, but really, so many things you perceive as fact could be just merely a speculation
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Old 2010-10-28, 14:07   Link #2103
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Really, justavisitor proves that the resort of the desperate is bringing up disingenuous points.
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Old 2010-10-28, 14:08   Link #2104
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
That sounds reasonable enough. But why should she care? Episode 19 seemed to show that Ranka really wasn't interested in grand ideals like being the savior of Frontier (let alone both Frontier and the Vajra). What changed, why, and when?
This is where the problem lies for me as well. You're right in stating that Ranka wasn't exactly fond of the idea of "being the savior of Frontier," although it's hard to determine what exactly changed her mind. It seems to be a mix between finding out what Ai-kun actually was (I.e. - A Vajra) and maybe recovering some more memories off screen but admittedly, this would have to be speculation on my part since I truly believe something changed.

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I rather like this plan. But if that's the case, then wouldn't it be easier for Ranka to simply say "I'm going to have Ai-kun tell the Vajra to call off their troops"?
It might have just been a way to add more drama by Kawamori or whoever had a part in the script. It was probably a way for Alto to stay on Frontier and have Ranka viewed as a traitor. I'm sure this would cause a pretty big reaction by the audience (in which it did )

But if we go solely by the conversation between Alto and Ranka, then it was just the timing which was just wrong. I believe Ranka did want to tell Alto every part of her plan but Ai-kun's interruption didn't help much (and Brera's arrival was just icing on the cake so-to-speak.)

This also brings me back to an earlier point in which I've mentioned a specific line that seems to slightly explain Ranka's idealistic plan. If you have some time, check episode 21 where Alto and Ranka are having their conversation (that is, before Ai-kun shows up. The timing should be [18:00 - 18:25]) Ranka states something along the lines of, "everyone wants...to live free, don't they?" (Actually, this is right before Ai-kun shows up.) My interpretation of this line is that she really did want to somehow find peace between Humanity and Frontier, at least this could be one way of interpreting it.
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Old 2010-10-28, 14:39   Link #2105
wisteria233
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I did ask you for number lol...how many TV viewers have expressed their views in internet...

At the end of the day you only have "internet forum" to "prove" your so called "criticism against Ranka"...I am just trying to suggest that internet forum doesn't equal to real life...If a company only uses opinion from internet as the only mean of market research then that company is doomed (not to mention that there are so many anime discussion forums...have you visited them all..not just "I heard a guy who said ppl hate Ranka on another forum" ??)

I don't wanna put more fuel into fire so I would just stop, but really, so many things you perceive as fact could be just merely a speculation
Now you're just being an idiot, you just don't want to admit the fact that Ranka did receive a lot of criticism from viewers. While it is okay to like a character you shouldn't let it put you in denial, about that characters' standing with the fandom in general.

And think about this for a moment if you were a creator whose opinion would matter more to you a single e-mail from a fan, or the opinion of many fans on the message boards. One only represents one fan and another represents a lot.

Also this is the new age where creators do lurk forums to find out what fan reaction to certain events in their series were, because people are busy and they don't always have time to e-mail the creator about every complaint they have about the series. Also unfortunately for your opinion behind every post is a person. Posts are not just randomly generated by a computer people have to type them. The fact that so many people had a problem with one character across the on both sides of the Pacific reflects badly on the creator especially when the viewers aren't supposed to hate them.

And just to prove you wrong look at the incident with the pineapple cake. There would be no way Kawamori would know about that meme if he wasn't aware of the various Macross message boards.

And for entertainment industry market research is everything, because if a television show continues to do things that the fandom views as unfavorable then they'll lose ratings, and they won't sell as much merchandise. And the best way to find out what fans think about a specific product is to lurk forums. And you're also wrong in thinking that that's unsafe for a company to base its marketing off of what fans think and post in message boards, considering that there have been series that owe their popularity to the internet; most triumphant example- Naruto.
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Old 2010-10-28, 22:40   Link #2106
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Calm down people!

Now that the discussion is starting to turn off-topic, I'm going to have to squash it before it gets out of hand. Any more discussion along the lines of justavistior and wisteria's last posts is off-topic and will be deleted on sight. We're discussing Ranka not Kawamori.

And stop with the petty insults as well.

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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
...so many things you perceive as fact could be just merely a speculation
You do realize that it cuts both ways, right?
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Old 2010-10-28, 23:06   Link #2107
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I rather like this plan. But if that's the case, then wouldn't it be easier for Ranka to simply say "I'm going to have Ai-kun tell the Vajra to call off their troops"?
It certainly would've...but it was also necessary to the plot to have Alto think that Ranka was a traitor.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
While being the "key to the whole conflict" is certainly a cool plot title that one might want to show off to their friends, but it doesn't actually provide any insight into a possible course of action. It's a bit like being a "protagonist of the whole story".

Even if the Vajra want Ranka, that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants to let them get to her - depending on what they actually intend to do with her.
True...but removing herself from the fleet would keep the Vajra away from it. And once she convinced them she doesn't NEED rescuing, then BAM! Conflict over.

Which is, of course, pretty much what happened. I just think it would've happened faster had Grace not been involved.


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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
I don't mind speculation, especially when people qualify it as such. When you were watching the story, surely you must have had some sort of a dominant interpretation that linked all the pieces together?
At the time, I figured that first, she knew what she was doing, and second, she was going to go off, disappear for a couple of episodes, and the Vajra (commanded by her) would charge in like the cavalry to rescue Frontier in the end. And it seemed like the perfect time to go, too, since the Vajra infestation of the Frontier fleet had been elminated, there was no "threat from within" to worry about.


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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I personally believe that both opinions given are just speculation, regardless of how one feels

On one hand you have people saying that Ranka didn't care about Frontier and the situation it was in, and their evidence is the fact that when we did see Ranka in episodes 19-21 and especially 20 she didn't spare any thought to the destruction around her, instead focusing on her own memories, and her connection to the Vajra, rather than the plight of the people around. But it was never stated that she didn't care about Frontier.

And on the other hand you have those saying that Ranka did care about Frontier using the basis and went with Brera and Ai-kun to find out how to end the conflict, and that she remembered what happened to her previous home, so she might have at least wanted to protect her home. However, this is speculation because we never see Ranka acknowledge the destruction around her only her own feelings nothing in her actions and thoughts suggested otherwise, and the fact she never actually said that she wanted to end the conflict that was a by product of the plot helping her. Also if what she did really did resonate with fans then why did Kawamori recieve so much criticism for her character? Why did he have to change her character for the movie?

I also wouldn't put money on the re-watch changing everyone's views as while re-watching can change someone's views on a subject, it can also solidify others.
That's a good summation, Wisteria. The one thing I'd quibble with is that, while it seems to me that ALL the main characters are changed a bit for the movie, none of them are inconsistent with their portrayal in the show. One thing I liked about the movie is tha it gave me MORE of the characters without ALTERING them much.

But yeah...I'd imagine that from the Ranka-I-Am-Disappoint school of thought, having her listen to Alto on the cable car, and then later nearly sacrifice herself, would go a long way towards addressing the issues people had. Just as Sheryl being more instantly likable might quell some Sheryl-hate out there (although how ANYONE can hate Sheryl is beyond me, really...some people just jealous, I guess ).
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Old 2010-10-28, 23:57   Link #2108
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That's a good summation, Wisteria. The one thing I'd quibble with is that, while it seems to me that ALL the main characters are changed a bit for the movie, none of them are inconsistent with their portrayal in the show. One thing I liked about the movie is tha it gave me MORE of the characters without ALTERING them much.

But yeah...I'd imagine that from the Ranka-I-Am-Disappoint school of thought, having her listen to Alto on the cable car, and then later nearly sacrifice herself, would go a long way towards addressing the issues people had. Just as Sheryl being more instantly likable might quell some Sheryl-hate out there (although how ANYONE can hate Sheryl is beyond me, really...some people just jealous, I guess ).
I've already seen many people say that they respect movie Ranka much more than TV series Ranka, based purely on the fact that movie Ranka is actually shone to empathize with other characters. I think that it also helps that Ranka isn't in main focus, as it prevents people from singling her out if she ever makes a generally reckless decision.

Well there is actually very little Sheryl hate out there, but as to why some viewers hated her was because their still stuck on their first impression on her and refuse to change their view.

Well first impressions can sometimes leave a more lasting effect on some people, especially with fictional characters. There are those who judge purely on first impressions, and don't take into account whatever actions the character does in the future, whether bad or good. Some people that are really stubborn in this respect and refuse to start liking or disliking a character based solely on the first impression that they perceived, no matter how that character develops for better or for worse.
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Old 2010-10-29, 03:20   Link #2109
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Problem is Ranka wasn't shown to care, we do get to her side of the story and not once does she bring up her home, and it stood out against the rest of the cast that actually did think about Frontier. Ranka wasn't shown to care, that's why its speculation to say that she did.
Then why did most of the SMS crew also left Frontier? As we are talking about Ranka it is off topic to include the SMS leave but when we start judging people for their movements, then we have to consider those as well who also moved a different way.

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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Ranka's maneuver was a suicide maneuver especially after episode 20 where her song actually did fail to calm them down. I can't give her credit for what happened in the last episode because that wasn't Ranka's doing, that was the plot working its way to make everything better.
Leons maneuver was suicide as well. Still he jumped to the vajra planet. SMS left because they could not agree with the last plots. From military perspective suicide as well, because they had most of the modern weapon. This would include the Antares Squad as well they left along with Grace. Anyhow, we are only judging Ranka and not all the people who decided to go on their own way.


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If Alto and Sheryl weren't there and the plot were crueler she probably wouldn't have been around for the ending.
And Sheryl would be dead as well.
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Old 2010-10-29, 03:45   Link #2110
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I've already seen many people say that they respect movie Ranka much more than TV series Ranka, based purely on the fact that movie Ranka is actually shone to empathize with other characters.
Me, for example. But then I make clear distinctions between series Ranka and movie Ranka.

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Then why did most of the SMS crew also left Frontier? As we are talking about Ranka it is off topic to include the SMS leave but when we start judging people for their movements, then we have to consider those as well who also moved a different way.
Because a.) they were loyal to Ozma, Cathy and ( in case of much of the unknown crew ) to Captain Wilder. Because they had an alternative plan to find evidence for Graces motives. Because they were about to be disbanded, and in the case of Ozma and Cathy, assassinated. Because theirs wasn't a suicide mission.

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Leons maneuver was suicide as well. Still he jumped to the vajra planet. SMS left because they could not agree with the last plots. From military perspective suicide as well, because they had most of the modern weapon. This would include the Antares Squad as well they left along with Grace. Anyhow, we are only judging Ranka and not all the people who decided to go on their own way.
It's one thing to leave the fleet on a whim, with barely a plan and leaving everybody there defenseless against the next Vajra attack ( if it weren't for Lucas ingeniousity, which Ranka DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT ). Leon convinced the other authorities of Frontier ( who seem remarkably weak-willed ) to bet it all on one card, but he had the option to call an S.O.S. to NUNS command. BUT THEN HE'S A VILLAIN!

Of course if you want to compare the motivations of Ranka and Leon as equally valid, go ahead. I can surely draw interesting comparisons between the two.

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And Sheryl would be dead as well.
If the series would be concerned with real physics, everybody wouldn't even be there. Shocking, I tell you!
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Old 2010-10-29, 04:00   Link #2111
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Me, for example. But then I make clear distinctions between series Ranka and movie Ranka.
But most of the characters have been altered. Do you draw clear distinctions between everyone?

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
If the series would be concerned with real physics, everybody wouldn't even be there. Shocking, I tell you!
You mean you really CAN'T catch a tuna in space...? Way to crush my childhood dreams, Magnus.
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Old 2010-10-29, 04:36   Link #2112
magnuskn
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But most of the characters have been altered. Do you draw clear distinctions between everyone?
Mostly the three mains, the rest haven't significantly changed. But if it were a discussion about the two venues, then, yes, I would.

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You mean you really CAN'T catch a tuna in space...? Way to crush my childhood dreams, Magnus.
Well, let's handwave that, then.
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Old 2010-10-29, 09:06   Link #2113
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Then why did most of the SMS crew also left Frontier? As we are talking about Ranka it is off topic to include the SMS leave but when we start judging people for their movements, then we have to consider those as well who also moved a different way.
That actually had less to do with Ranka and more to do Ozma and Cathy. You forget that it was Ozma who got them to leave after telling them about Leon assassinating president Glace, which lead to them getting suspicious. They were also about be disbanded by Leon, so they were suspicious of him. Ranka was really just Ozma's reason.



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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Leons maneuver was suicide as well. Still he jumped to the vajra planet. SMS left because they could not agree with the last plots. From military perspective suicide as well, because they had most of the modern weapon. This would include the Antares Squad as well they left along with Grace. Anyhow, we are only judging Ranka and not all the people who decided to go on their own way.
You must not have been paying attention too much. Macross Frontier have folded other times to areas which were unknown to them because it is their mission to find a planet. Leon outright said that the reason they were doing it was to complete the main mission of Frontier. Leon also didn't know that he jumping to the Vajra planet, but he had to because he didn't know how long Sheryl would last (lest we forget that since Ranka left, Sheryl became their only way to calm down the Vajra).


Quote:
And Sheryl would be dead as well.
As would Alto, but they'd die as heroes. While Ranka would die as a traitor, though even if Ozma (by some miracle was able to get people to not consider her a traitor, they'd still think of her as stupid).
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Old 2010-11-01, 07:39   Link #2114
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As would Alto, but they'd die as heroes. While Ranka would die as a traitor, though even if Ozma (by some miracle was able to get people to not consider her a traitor, they'd still think of her as stupid).
It reminds me of reading Animorphs. There was this andalite (heroic aliens) guy who pitied the main villains (before they became villains), and gave them advanced technology to reach the stars, thus letting loose a giant, megalomaniac, parasitic plague on the universe. The andalites then got a new law called "[Andalite guy's name]'s Kindness", and his folly was paid in the destruction of the species of several planets and the andalites dedicated their existence to fighting what he'd let loose.

The Kindness law? Meant that the andalites under no circumstances are to share their technology with other species.

I wonder if that's how Ranka would have been remembered, if not as a traitor.

Quote:
You must not have been paying attention too much. Macross Frontier have folded other times to areas which were unknown to them because it is their mission to find a planet. Leon outright said that the reason they were doing it was to complete the main mission of Frontier. Leon also didn't know that he jumping to the Vajra planet, but he had to because he didn't know how long Sheryl would last (lest we forget that since Ranka left, Sheryl became their only way to calm down the Vajra).
Actually, from what I remember, Frontier was on their last leg. The complete destruction of an island, the damages and deaths on the rest, the pollutants and possible V-type infections and shortages of food, water and oxygen would slowly reduce their numbers.

The people were desperate. They would want revenge, answers and supplies, and they were in the hands of a megalomaniac. On top of that, there's Frontier's mission to find inhabitable planets as well.

All Leon would need to do is go "guess what, Vajra has an Earth-class planet a fold away from here". By killing the Vajra and taking over the planet, Frontier would essentially solve all their problems. Also, the destructive desperation and anger that the people felt would be channeled into the genocide of the Vajra, solving the problem of any revolutions.

But then again, Leon is a villain who assassinated his girlfriend's father for his own political ambitions. He's supposed to be seen as in the wrong.

Ranka, on the other hand, is a heroine. In fact, she marketed as THE heroine, both in our world and in Macross' world.

Her total lack of reaction towards Gilliam's death (the Vajra squeeeeeezed him to death, which was unnecessarily cruel, and even vicious, instead of completing its main objective of getting Ranka out of Frontier, that doesn't bode well for humantradi-Vajra relations) when there was a cute boy around (most of her after-attack thing is finding out who Alto is, not if there's a memorial service for the soldier who saved her and Alto's lives).

Her similar disregard for Michael's fate (Klan was trapped in a glass tube, yet these supposedly non-violent Vajra goes after her instead of Ranka).

Ranka's belief that Vajra are nice is because Ai-kun is nice TO HER. She has already witnessed the unnecessary cruelty with which Vajra dispose of people.

So this means that there can be several schools of thought:

A.) Ranka believes that the Vajra will leave Frontier alone if she leaves, and that she can reason with them. This means that she knows that she has a special Vajra-connection. Which means that every time Ai-kun is nice to her, it isn't and indicator of how nice the species as a whole are. Instead, it's his interactions with other humantradi who should judge whether or not he's vicious. And we already knows how he treats Alto['s paper-planes], hence even Ai-kun could be considered vicious. Coupled with the unnecessary violence the rest of the Vajra exhibit, we have Ranka running to a vicious enemy, and she may or may not have an inkling about what she's doing.

B.) Ranka runs away from the responsibilities she has on Frontier. Only vaguely knowing that she MIGHT be able to communicate with Vajra, but her main motivation is to get away from Alto/Sheryl and keeping her pet from dying, now that he's too large to be hidden, any communications that are opened are a bonus. She doesn't really care about what her actions will do in terms with Frontier's fate. That the Vajra will wipe them out. That morale will hit an all-time low. She just doesn't care.

C.) Other theories.

This is in direct contrast to Macross Quarter leaving. They already know that they'll be destroyed if they stay, and they are now searching for tangible evidence to oust Leon.

What Ranka is doing is based on vague feelings. Coupled with her "MEMEMEMEmemememe!"-centric point of view, it's very likely wrong. Ai-kun is nice TO HER. She had a special connection to Vajra. Ai-kun dislikes OTHERS. She never makes a connection between the two facts she thinks are right.

Even Alto, who doesn't have relatives in the military, throws up when he remembers Gilliam's sacrifice. Ranka, who has a brother in the military and very likely knows Michael and Luca from the military, asks about the cute guy who saved her life and not about the guy who died.

Ranka is the personification of tunnel vision, and it never bites her in the ass (except when she sees Alto and Sheryl on a rooftop, thinking that a coordinated flight stunt was a personal declaration of love from Alto, rather than a declaration of gratitude from the people). And she's surrounded by people, even people who never personally meet her, who enable this ("She wasn't a traitor?!" says the generals).

This was actually changed in the movie, with Ranka being more concerned about others and having a harder time rising to the top, thus making her more likable. No sudden messiah figure here. With TV!Ranka my like level is somewhere at -25 (-100 would be total hate, +100 would be total love), but with Movie!Ranka it's at 0, because she is burdened with TV!Ranka's history in my mind (otherwise she would be at +25).

The thing is, TV!Ranka's motivations are all over the place, and often self-centered. In fact, they are so vague and jumping around so much that fans of Macross Frontier can, years later, still sit down and argue about the "Why"s of what was her major character development/refinement scene/action.

So, when discussing the three factions we have:
Ranka: Grasping at smoke. (She did fall into Grace's clutches.)
Quarter: Grasping and collecting straws. (The more straws they collect, the stronger their position.)
Leon: Grasping hot steel. (Solid, burning, rapidly melting and weakening.)
Galaxy: The people who are stomping on the others' fingers.

The thing is, Ranka wasn't shown to be right by her actions. She was shown to be right by Quarter and Frontier showing up and saving the day. Had those two not decided to fold to Vajra planet on that day? Bye, bye free will/99.9% of humantradi population.

If Quarter and Frontier hadn't shown up. Ranka would have played part in the destruction of natural humantradi (I think it's indicated that Galaxy requires implants simply because they can hijack everyone into their zombie army. They need the Vajra to make it universal, though).

And she's THE heroine.
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Old 2010-11-01, 10:20   Link #2115
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That was one analytic rant of righteousness. Very true in all accounts, but one: I think Ai-kun actually was neutral to others ( except paper planes ). He seemed okay with Nanase, at the very least.

I'd love to give you some rep, but I fear I've got to spread some points around before that. I hope I remember to go back to this post when I can in the future.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:14   Link #2116
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There's a lot that I could pick apart here...mostly inference and opinion disguised as fact, but it's 2:00 AM and I'm tired, so I'll focus on only two things for now:

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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Ranka's belief that Vajra are nice is because Ai-kun is nice TO HER.
Proof?


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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
...humantradi...
The fact that you put humans and the race that almost brought humanity to extinction belies your argument about the Vajra. The Zentradi attack was many magnitudes worse than anything the Vajra did...and now, they (mostly) peacefully coexist with humanity.

Incidentally, I bought another copy of Volume 3 of the Frontier novels (since my other copy is in storage back in Los Angeles) to see if any light was shed on Ranka's motives during her departure scene. (And yeah, I know no one's sure if the novels "count" for TV series continuity. I can't find anything that says that Kawamori went over the text of the book, as some have claimed. But, as Magnus rightly pointed out, I can't find anything that says he DIDN'T. Yes, I know, irony and all that...) Anyway, I didn't find what I was hoping for, but it's interesting that, in the novel (the scene starts on page 300), Ranka ALMOST convinces Alto. When she says that he shouldn't kill Ai-kun, because Ai-kun's done nothing wrong, Alto immediately thinks of Klan. That the Zentradi nearly exterminated humanity, and yet Klan is his friend. The Zentradi are the Zentradi, but Klan is Klan. He finally pushes this line of thinking out of his head and prepares to attack Ai-kun again.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:27   Link #2117
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Proof?
That's pretty rich coming from Mr. "I totally assume that Ranka knows that she is the sole reason without any evidence whatsoever!".

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
The fact that you put humans and the race that almost brought humanity to extinction belies your argument about the Vajra. The Zentradi attack was many magnitudes worse than anything the Vajra did...and now, they (mostly) peacefully coexist with humanity.
The problem is, we got to see the Zentraedi as rational beings immediately. We got to see their journey from emotionless killing machines towards something more human-like. More importantly, the people of the SDF-1 got to see them transitioning to that. There is no comparison to the Vajra, which were presented for 95% of the series as killers without any personality whatsoever, besides "must destroy Frontier".

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Incidentally, I bought another copy of Volume 3 of the Frontier novels (since my other copy is in storage back in Los Angeles) to see if any light was shed on Ranka's motives during her departure scene. (And yeah, I know no one's sure if the novels "count" for TV series continuity. I can't find anything that says that Kawamori went over the text of the book, as some have claimed. But, as Magnus rightly pointed out, I can't find anything that says he DIDN'T. Yes, I know, irony and all that...) Anyway, I didn't find what I was hoping for, but it's interesting that, in the novel (the scene starts on page 300), Ranka ALMOST convinces Alto. When she says that he shouldn't kill Ai-kun, because Ai-kun's done nothing wrong, Alto immediately thinks of Klan. That the Zentradi nearly exterminated humanity, and yet Klan is his friend. The Zentradi are the Zentradi, but Klan is Klan. He finally pushes this line of thinking out of his head and prepares to attack Ai-kun again.
Man, I really want to see Frontier through Altos eyes, it'd be a fascinating read. I can only hope we get some fan-translation of the novels in the future, as prospects for an official translation are nil.

As to the point you are raising, my answer is basically the same as two paragraphs above. It speaks to Altos humanity and intellect that he immediately thought of the Zentraedi/Vajra comparison, but in the end the Vajra were the worst portrayed opponent of all the Macross TV series, because they were such cyphers. Their motivations were laid bare much too late for us and for the characters. Ranka was by all evidence not cognizant of what their motivations were until episode 25, where we can chalk up her instant communication skill as a side effect of Graces manipulations of the Vajra queen.
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Old 2010-11-01, 12:32   Link #2118
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That's pretty rich coming from Mr. "I totally assume that Ranka knows that she is the sole reason without any evidence whatsoever!".
Uh-huh.

I'm moving this to PM.

Besides, you can detach Irisiel's point apart from anything I've said. Let's look at that sentence again: "Ranka's belief that Vajra are nice is because Ai-kun is nice TO HER."

Ranka believed the Vajra were nice? I don't remember her saying that. And I also don't remember any lines that indicated Ai-kun being nice to her caused any kind of epiphany for her.

So yeah, I'd like proof.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:13   Link #2119
Irisiel
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But if Ai-kun's niceness didn't influence Ranka, doesn't that make Ranka even more illogical and stupid? After all, excluding Ai-kun, all Vajra that Ranka have met or seen have exclusively tried to wipe out the humantradi species.

And yes, I call them humantradi because at this point in the story? Humans and Zentradi get along. Since they are able to produce fertile offspring together they are also the same species, possibly different sub-species. They were part of Protoculture, while Vajra were not.

The closest connection that humantradi have with Vajra is the Bird Human and a virus.

Also, if Ranka did not believe the Vajra capable of being nice, why would she try to reason with them? If the Vajra cannot play nice, and they really have no reason to play nice (after all, they can wipe out all humantradi), wouldn't it be the height of idiocy to run away and try to reason with them? To try to communicate with the giant, killer bugs who either wants to kidnap you and kill all you love, or just kill you?

In that scenario it's a kill or be killed thing. The Vajra never lacked culture beyond war, they effectively think in a completely different way than humantradi. They are a hive mind with a queen in the center (which makes it illogical to retrieve Ranka, or listen to Ranka and Sheryl, because they would be rival queens confusing the network, preferably to be killed, but that is a small plot weakness).

While one can compare the situation between Vajra and Zentradi, one cannot compare the two species in relation to humans. Human and Zentradi talk. Human and Zentradi loves songs, acting, painting and other cultural and creative activities for the acts themselves. Vajra sing in order to mate.

That's like comparing a human singer with a cicada.

And if we were to know why Ranka thought herself able to communicate effectively (as in, actually getting a message across and not mimicking their mating call infinitely) with the Vajra, we should have been shown her pose these questions, gets answers and then plan accordingly. But instead we get a "did she just run away to Vajra-planet? WTF? What is she thinking?!" and discussions like these.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:30   Link #2120
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
But if Ai-kun's niceness didn't influence Ranka, doesn't that make Ranka even more illogical and stupid? After all, excluding Ai-kun, all Vajra that Ranka have met or seen have exclusively tried to wipe out the humantradi species.
I guess it's a question of semantics, then. If you had said, "I believe that Ranka realized the Vajra were not inherently genocidal based on her interaction with Ai-kun," I would've agreed with you. Saying "Ranka thinks the Vajra are nice because Ai-kun was nice TO HER" is not at all the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
And yes, I call them humantradi because at this point in the story? Humans and Zentradi get along. Since they are able to produce fertile offspring together they are also the same species, possibly different sub-species. They were part of Protoculture, while Vajra were not.
MOST humans and Zentradi get along, not all. President Glass had his nice little "racist moment," and Temujin's crew were definitely not miclone-friendly, shared genetic material or no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Also, if Ranka did not believe the Vajra capable of being nice, why would she try to reason with them? If the Vajra cannot play nice, and they really have no reason to play nice (after all, they can wipe out all humantradi), wouldn't it be the height of idiocy to run away and try to reason with them? To try to communicate with the giant, killer bugs who either wants to kidnap you and kill all you love, or just kill you?
Again "CABABLE of being nice" is not what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
While one can compare the situation between Vajra and Zentradi, one cannot compare the two species in relation to humans. Human and Zentradi talk. Human and Zentradi loves songs, acting, painting and other cultural and creative activities for the acts themselves. Vajra sing in order to mate.
My belief is that the "mating" line is a rather sly reference to the final line of DYRL...after all, is there really THAT big a gulf between a "mating song" and a "love song"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
And if we were to know why Ranka thought herself able to communicate effectively (as in, actually getting a message across and not mimicking their mating call infinitely) with the Vajra, we should have been shown her pose these questions, gets answers and then plan accordingly. But instead we get a "did she just run away to Vajra-planet? WTF? What is she thinking?!" and discussions like these.
Now THAT, I agree with.
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