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Old 2010-11-01, 13:35   Link #2121
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
And if we were to know why Ranka thought herself able to communicate effectively (as in, actually getting a message across and not mimicking their mating call infinitely) with the Vajra, we should have been shown her pose these questions, gets answers and then plan accordingly. But instead we get a "did she just run away to Vajra-planet? WTF? What is she thinking?!" and discussions like these.
There is the vision Ranka received at the end of episode 14 to consider ( when the Vajra queen sang to her in the image of Rankas mother ).

But since that plot point wasn't mentioned again, ever, we have to assume that Rankas dissociative amnesia debuff procced once again, although the show doesn't communicate effectively.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:39   Link #2122
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She does throw herself between Ai-kun and Alto's gun at least, or tried to.

As for the Vajra, I wouldn't know about worst portrayed. I think they achieved what they set out to with the Vajra, and that was a truly alien race and mindset that we couldn't understand due to the lack of communication between the two sides. It's that fear of the strange and unknown, as well as complete misunderstandings due to the lack of communication, that drove them to fight one another.

Ranka was at least in a unique position to understand them. There are scenes to suggest that she had started to, notably in ep 14 when she's crying after Frontier starts nuking the crap out of the Vajra fleet and doesn't know why she is, and feels their pain when enough of them die. Just... thought I might drop that in here in case that helps any.

I still lean more toward her making a gut call (pun intended~).
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:43   Link #2123
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Originally Posted by Lancel View Post
She does throw herself between Ai-kun and Alto's gun at least, or tried to.

As for the Vajra, I wouldn't know about worst portrayed. I think they achieved what they set out to with the Vajra, and that was a truly alien race and mindset that we couldn't understand due to the lack of communication between the two sides. It's that fear of the strange and unknown, as well as complete misunderstandings due to the lack of communication, that drove them to fight one another.
Sure, they were quite effective in that regard. The problem here is that such an "irresisteble force" opponent doesn't make for a very exciting antagonist, putting all the weight of the narrative on the other side of the conflict. We are lucky that, mainly due to Sheryl and Alto and the rest of the cast, we had enough personality and good interaction to make the show good.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:44   Link #2124
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
But since that plot point wasn't mentioned again, ever, we have to assume that Rankas dissociative amnesia debuff procced once again, although the show doesn't communicate effectively.
Maybe it is the show's sub-theme?

We have a male protagonist who doesn't communicate clearly, and thus have mixed response from watchers.

We have a female protagonist who doesn't communicate clearly, and thus have negative response from many viewers.

We have an alien invasion that fails to communicate their objectives several times.

We have Michael and Klan unable to communicate their feelings.

We have Ranka's memories unable to communicate clearly with the rest of her brain.

We have Luca who rides the antenna valkyrie being the weakest pilot.

We have Ozma and Cathy just about to start communicate.

And then we have the complete outsider, Sheryl, communicating extremely clearly.

The show is actually a statement on how we, 9 times out of 10, all fail to adequately communicate with one another.

And Yot-chan, everything I write is my opinions and observations. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Anyway, with Movie!Ranka now at 0, she actually has a chance on going into + in the second movie! Go Ranka! *Waves finger-pompoms.*
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:48   Link #2125
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Now that you point it out, it surely seems to be one of the sub-themes of the show, beside several others.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:03   Link #2126
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That's an interesting theme you've come up with there. It seems reasonable, especially given the end scene. Sheryl never had to thank anyone, but Ranka and Alto certainly came to thank her. With regards to Ranka though, Ranka is perhaps a personification of that missing communication. Shy, a little awkward, she kind of serves as a bridge between the Vajra and Frontier, not quite fitting in with either, maybe kind of a midway point between the two. I do feel that Ranka to some degree represents the Vajra as a faction, while Sheryl rather comes to represent Frontier. At least as far as idol singers go.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:29   Link #2127
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Isn't "the importance to be able communicate with others" the main-theme of the show?? In ep 25, Ranka explicitly stated that it was important to communicate with each other (That's also the reason why this time Ranka is determined to have a "good communication" with Alto...)

I always thought "communication" was the main theme of this series...if this is the sub-theme, then what is the main-theme of this series??
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:37   Link #2128
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Love triangles, the power of rock, and transforming mecha space fighter action of course.
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:40   Link #2129
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imo, those are more like the main elements...just like gundam series...the main element is always gundam, but the main theme is "supposed" to be anti-war....(even tho in each show they have to create uber gundam )

Anyway, glad to know that others also think communication is one of the themes (main or sub) in this Frontier series
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Old 2010-11-01, 14:51   Link #2130
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If it was, it was shoddily handled, as we still haven't had any clear communication by the end of the last episode.

We don't hear what Alto wanted to say to Sheryl in the make up room. We don't know the meaning of the Alto-Klan rooftop scene. We don't know what Ranka meant when she said that she wouldn't lose in love (does this mean that she's going after Alto? Or that she'll make sure that she and her-boyfriend-who-isn't-Alto have a much better love than Sheryl/Alto?).

No, I think Alto's and Grace's exchange is the Main Theme of the series: Because people are individuals we can love (as I loosely translated their exchange in the final battle).

Vajra and Galaxy are both the antithesis of that statement, and the main villains of the series, and it is the main character who delivers that statement to the villain just before the final blow.

It would also fit with Alto accepting himself and his past. He doesn't have to be a macho man in order to be a man, he is who he is.

Same with how he expected Ozma to be this responsible brother/mentor figure, which he superficially resembled (at least if you're used to stories and characters, like through kabuki), but Ozma as an individual isn't just a stock character from the stage.

Same with Ranka's belief that Alto's flight was a declaration of love, despite the fact that the coordinated flying was not from Alto as an individual.

The fact that Alto become more a part of everything in Frontier after accepting that everyone goes their individual ways also fits.

So...
Main Theme: Individuality (Main conflict)
Sub Theme: Communication (The source of many conflicts)
Sub-Sub Themes: Everything else

And this just became so off-topic. Um, so what does everyone think about the Ranka promos for the next movie? Personally, I'm apprehensive. TFS went and aged up Ranka a bit, but from the promotional posters, it seems like WoG will undo that work.
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Old 2010-11-01, 15:15   Link #2131
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
We don't know what Ranka meant when she said that she wouldn't lose in love (does this mean that she's going after Alto?
You know, I'd really like to see her try. I suspect she'd be rather bad at it. Also, that statement of hers was made without knowing the facts of how far ahead Sheryl and Alto already were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
No, I think Alto's and Grace's exchange is the Main Theme of the series: Because people are individuals we can love (as I loosely translated their exchange in the final battle).
I most definitely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
So...
Main Theme: Individuality (Main conflict)
Sub Theme: Communication (The source of many conflicts)
Sub-Sub Themes: Everything else
I'd say the fragility of the environment is definitely in the "sub-theme" category, since it was stressed so much during the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
And this just became so off-topic. Um, so what does everyone think about the Ranka promos for the next movie? Personally, I'm apprehensive. TFS went and aged up Ranka a bit, but from the promotional posters, it seems like WoG will undo that work.
While I don't think it will happen, it be hi-la-ri-o-us if Kawamori would deliberately undo all the progress movie Ranka made in comparison to series Ranka and would let her fail as spectacularly as in the series. That'd definitely confirm that Ranka was meant as a deconstruction of the moe type character.
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Old 2010-11-01, 20:52   Link #2132
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
We don't know what Ranka meant when she said that she wouldn't lose in love (does this mean that she's going after Alto? Or that she'll make sure that she and her-boyfriend-who-isn't-Alto have a much better love than Sheryl/Alto?)..
Imo, I am pretty sure that's the former

About your theory on the main theme of this series...fair enough, individual struggle could be the main theme of this series...it's just that every time I think about the series, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Ranka's speech about communication at the end..I forgot Alto's speech completely until you mentioned it


I still don't think Ranka has changed a lot in the movie, but I don't wanna drag in this issue anymore so I will just let it go
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I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2010-11-02, 04:59   Link #2133
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Imo, I am pretty sure that's the former
So, how do you think she'd go about it? I'm really curious.
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Old 2010-11-02, 08:00   Link #2134
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Communicate with Alto one more time--and this time, all the inconveniences are out and everyone learns the importance of conveying the messages from their hearts to others
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2010-11-02, 09:28   Link #2135
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Communicate with Alto one more time--and this time, all the inconveniences are out and everyone learns the importance of conveying the messages from their hearts to others
Okay inconviences that you're ignoring...

1. Alto now lives with Sheryl, and the rest of Frontier believes that they're in a relationship, if Ranka were to publically chase after Alto that wouldn't be good for her reputation

2. Alto already knows that Ranka likes him, she already conveyed her heart to him but he didn't return the sentiment, and he is also not obliagated to return the sentiment.

3. How is she gonna get out from under Ozma's nose to even try?
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Old 2010-11-02, 09:49   Link #2136
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Originally Posted by Irisiel View Post
Maybe it is the show's sub-theme?

We have a male protagonist who doesn't communicate clearly, and thus have mixed response from watchers.

We have a female protagonist who doesn't communicate clearly, and thus have negative response from many viewers.

We have an alien invasion that fails to communicate their objectives several times.

We have Michael and Klan unable to communicate their feelings.

We have Ranka's memories unable to communicate clearly with the rest of her brain.

We have Luca who rides the antenna valkyrie being the weakest pilot.

We have Ozma and Cathy just about to start communicate.

And then we have the complete outsider, Sheryl, communicating extremely clearly.

The show is actually a statement on how we, 9 times out of 10, all fail to adequately communicate with one another.

And Yot-chan, everything I write is my opinions and observations. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Anyway, with Movie!Ranka now at 0, she actually has a chance on going into + in the second movie! Go Ranka! *Waves finger-pompoms.*
Fantastic observation!
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Old 2010-11-02, 09:51   Link #2137
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1. it's already a lot better than the misunderstanding they had (episode 22? or 21)...the setting is a lot better too...they were at war and now the peace has come...besides, I think Sheryl lived in Alto's house (or vice versa) was because of Sheryl's sickness...I think Sheryl can go for independence now that she is fully recovered (Plus, now Alto should go back and have a talk with his daddy...maybe he will move back to his daddy's house)...As for the reputation, I don't think it has anything to do with reputation but just to answer your question I don't think Ranka and Sheryl were the types that would weigh reputation more than their own goal/dream/desire...

2. That's where the part we read the line "You are both my wings" differently...I always consider that communication as the main theme of this series...and that's why I think Alto meant what he said in ep 25...during the series he always had angst on lot of things and he had trouble to understand/realize what he really wanted..in the episode 25, however, he finally realized his own feeling...to him, at least in that very moment, Sheryl and Ranka were as important to him and he couldn't lose either one

3. If anything I would count that as advantage for Ranka lol, Ozma is Alto's boss...not to mention that now Breza is now getting ready to give her sister a little push...no one can underestimate what Ozma+Breza can do
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2010-11-02, 09:54   Link #2138
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4. What if she's arrested and separated from the rest for aiding Grace, waiting for an investigation and trial.

5. Will she concentrate on Alto while Ozma is arrested along with Quarter crew for running away with weapons of mass destruction, waiting for their investigation and trial? When Brera is arrested for his part in Grace's plan, waiting for his investigation and trial?

6. Will she run after Alto while placed under protection until people, who watched her lead a charge of killer bugs that killed at least a few hundreds, if not a few thousand, people, and doesn't believe the government when they say that she didn't know what she was doing and therefore is not even tried for accidental manslaughter, anyway, until people stop trying to mete their own justice against her?

7. Will she try to catch Alto even after learning that he and Sheryl already live together?

8. Will Alto even return her feelings?
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Old 2010-11-02, 10:04   Link #2139
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While Ranka is facing criminal charges Alto and Sheryl will be hitting every talk show as the heroes of Frontier and than head home together for some "dinner".

But it's even right lol.

If Sheryl vs Ranka was a boxing fight.. than what it would be like is if an even match for the first 6 rounds turned into a slaughter in rounds 7-11 and that something happened to stop the fight and it was called a no decision. Everyone knows who won the fight, just some BS stopped it lol, in this case lack of balls on Kawamori's. I'm sorry but I don't forget most Ranka fans going this is bullshit during the last 7 or so episodes as well as them being happy with this "no decision". Of course you're happy, you weren't leading, you weren't in the drivers seat.

Sad thing is if Ranka wins in the movie (something I'm inclined to think will happen) than that will mean she was going to win in the tv series, lol f outta here.
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Old 2010-11-02, 10:06   Link #2140
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@Irisiel
Wow, you manged to change the happy ending with the sad ending where everyone from the Quarter will get arrested and possibly executed....(your charge--running away with WMD was a very serious offence lol--the only fitting penalty for that crime got to be death-penalty)

Using your logic to go further, I would say that Frontier wants to develop their own songstress to control Vajra, so Ranka and Sheryl got to be terminated

Therefore, Frontier creates a little accident--unfortunately Alto (that player XD) get involved and all 3 of them, along with the crew on Macross Quarter, gets united in heaven

No wonder they don't give us season 2...

This is getting off-topic so I would stop

@Westlo
But your analogy doesn't include Alto..my analogy would be, a kid (Alto) always likes Toy A (Ranka), but due to the circumstance his mom got him toy B (Sheryl)..well after some period of time, the kid happens to like toy B but he never forgets toy A...now that he has the chance to have Toy A, he decides to collect them (Toy A and B) all

I doubt 2nd movie will have a resolution either...Kawamori will not be that dumb so that a fan base on certain side will not buy the DVD..I think the movie won't have a resolution, but there will be Ranka ending and Sheryl ending in the DVD...
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet

Last edited by justavisitor; 2010-11-02 at 10:21.
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