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Old 2010-11-03, 05:47   Link #2161
Westlo
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Ranka's challenge to Sheryl is the "runner up" challenge you generally see in anime, see the Shana anime for Yoshida's similar challenge (sans music) to Shana for one example. The champ doesn't issue challengers people lol.
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Old 2010-11-03, 05:48   Link #2162
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You can see the same at the end of Macross Movie, where Lynn holds up the piece of paper.
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Old 2010-11-03, 10:47   Link #2163
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
She'll sing (See episode 15 the duett with Sheryl in the hospital). lol. If it works it's another question.

And no, I don't think she'll win or that Sheryl will loose, because Sheryl and Alto already share much deeper memories, but lets keep an 1% hope factor for Ranka.
Fair enough.

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What's wrong to go after feelings if you know, you have to go whether you like it or not? The thing you forgot here is that Ozma dislikes that his sister is being used as a weapon. Did you ever think that he would like to see a person risks his life although he vowed to protect her? Seems that you missed some episodes.
Well, in this particular case one cannot blame Ranka for not going to her brother, since he was accounted as MIA by Leon. However, she could have gone to a host of other people who had expertise, including Luca, Leon and SMS.

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Ranka's challenge to Sheryl is the "runner up" challenge you generally see in anime, see the Shana anime for Yoshida's similar challenge (sans music) to Shana for one example. The champ doesn't issue challengers people lol.
Pretty much my thought. The "challenge" loses a lot of power as soon as someone looks at the exact circumstances the three mains are in.
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Old 2010-11-03, 12:13   Link #2164
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What's wrong to go after feelings if you know, you have to go whether you like it or not? The thing you forgot here is that Ozma dislikes that his sister is being used as a weapon. Did you ever think that he would like to see a person risks his life although he vowed to protect her? Seems that you missed some episodes.
And you seem to have missed the question that was posted in general. Thing is Ranka did have reservations about becoming the "Songtress of Hope" but once Alto said okay she went along with it. That's something that shouldn't be decided on a whim, its something that you should take time to think about.



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If you are family oriented, would you want so have own daughter or nice (age 15-16) in front of you risking her life although she has no military experience and her only ability is a 50/50 chance to irritate the enemy? In addition it's not 100% surei t proccs
No I wouldn't, but if she was willing and was aware of the danger then who am I to say no? At the end of the day it is her who makes the final decision. I would just pray that she knew what she was doing.



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Yes, she has a a lot of logic failures but that makes her human and not like a vulcan or an elve or a cyborg. A big thing what needs to be considered that she is a teen and maybe (I am not very firm with zentran biology) in pubert phase. A tutor once said to me: If you are working with teens in pubert phase, note that you are standing in front of a bulding loot with a lot of NO TRESPASSING! sign. And you know what? It works to understand them (more or less).
But that doesn't change what happened, it doesn't make what she did okay. She is not Shinji who was duped into taking up the mantel (granted Shinji is younger than Ranka). While you could use age as an excuse it really doesn't hold up in this case especially when you realize that her peers were all far more responsible than her. The problem is that people you're forgetting that people lost their loved ones because of her actions (or inactions) so if you were in their position and lost your son, or daughter, nephew, or whom ever is close to you, your neighbors have also lost their own precious friends and family, and your home has been almost completely destroyed (meaning your country so its not just you) and you don't know whether or not it will be able to hold up very long, all because of a teenager couldn't stop, think and do one responsible thing, and then go back on their vow that they made to the people, and then leave the country when you really need the moral support. Not only that but said teenager doesn't acknowledge the mistakes him/her made. Putting that into perspective how would you feel?
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Old 2010-11-10, 17:28   Link #2165
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No I wouldn't, but if she was willing and was aware of the danger then who am I to say no? At the end of the day it is her who makes the final decision. I would just pray that she knew what she was doing.
So you are sacrificing your future and your beloved to save your own butt?
My apologies if I sound rough. This is truly something I cannot understand and where I would willingly set my own life to protect the ones I love. At this point I am same opinion as Ozma.

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But that doesn't change what happened, it doesn't make what she did okay. She is not Shinji who was duped into taking up the mantel (granted Shinji is younger than Ranka). While you could use age as an excuse it really doesn't hold up in this case especially when you realize that her peers were all far more responsible than her. The problem is that people you're forgetting that people lost their loved ones because of her actions (or inactions) so if you were in their position and lost your son, or daughter, nephew, or whom ever is close to you, your neighbors have also lost their own precious friends and family, and your home has been almost completely destroyed (meaning your country so its not just you) and you don't know whether or not it will be able to hold up very long, all because of a teenager couldn't stop, think and do one responsible thing, and then go back on their vow that they made to the people, and then leave the country when you really need the moral support. Not only that but said teenager doesn't acknowledge the mistakes him/her made. Putting that into perspective how would you feel?
From my perspective those who really failed to take responsibilities is the Army as well as the scientists (which has been admited by Lucca).

I also do not believe that songs can prevent bulllet from piercing my body or prevent that I get cut into pieces. But I know that as a man I have to protect the ones I love even it it means at the cost of my life. Not more or less. If someone volunteers to fight at my side because she thinks she is special, she can do so but the responsibility I see it with some other persons rather than with a civilian even though she has magic mushrooms in her belly. But as Ranka is someone who is free to come and to go I cannot blame her if she rejects to sing. Another point why I can't take her into responsibility is because she is still an amateur who has been promoted as a pro but isn't.

Edit: What loss are you considering? The ones where she rejectet to sing because she was spoiled after seeing Alto and Sheryl hugging? Yes, this was a scene where I say it was stupid but also I considering her condition as critical because she is not "at heart". After she has been slapped and where she forced herself to sing the original "Aimo" she reduced the casualties. That she felt the pain of being killed as well is not mentioned anywhere. After she left the fleet casualties on civilian side are only speculations as well as on the military side because we don't see it until they jumped to the vajra planet for the grande final.
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Old 2010-11-10, 18:17   Link #2166
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So you are sacrificing your future and your beloved to save your own butt?
My apologies if I sound rough. This is truly something I cannot understand and where I would willingly set my own life to protect the ones I love. At this point I am same opinion as Ozma.
Logical fallacy 101: Ranka was "saving her own butt" as much as Ozmas.

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From my perspective those who really failed to take responsibilities is the Army as well as the scientists (which has been admited by Lucca).

I also do not believe that songs can prevent bulllet from piercing my body or prevent that I get cut into pieces. But I know that as a man I have to protect the ones I love even it it means at the cost of my life. Not more or less. If someone volunteers to fight at my side because she thinks she is special, she can do so but the responsibility I see it with some other persons rather than with a civilian even though she has magic mushrooms in her belly. But as Ranka is someone who is free to come and to go I cannot blame her if she rejects to sing. Another point why I can't take her into responsibility is because she is still an amateur who has been promoted as a pro but isn't.

Edit: What loss are you considering? The ones where she rejectet to sing because she was spoiled after seeing Alto and Sheryl hugging? Yes, this was a scene where I say it was stupid but also I considering her condition as critical because she is not "at heart". After she has been slapped and where she forced herself to sing the original "Aimo" she reduced the casualties. That she felt the pain of being killed as well is not mentioned anywhere. After she left the fleet casualties on civilian side are only speculations as well as on the military side because we don't see it until they jumped to the vajra planet for the grande final.
Logical fallacy 102: The problem with Ranka leaving is not that tons of people died in unseen Vajra attacks afterwards ( although that would have happened eventually ), but rather that she left although she knew, to her best knowledge, that Frontier did not have another viable weapon against the Vajra to defend itself. Furthermore, she took another one of the few still working weapons ( Breras Quantum Beam armed Valkyrie ) with her.
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Old 2010-11-10, 19:33   Link #2167
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Logical fallacy 101: Ranka was "saving her own butt" as much as Ozmas.
"Saving her own butt" by flying straight to the gates of hell. Sorry, but try next.

And Ozma has to save his butt or otherwise he would be dead for knowing the truth of the assassination.

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Logical fallacy 102: The problem with Ranka leaving is not that tons of people died in unseen Vajra attacks afterwards ( although that would have happened eventually ), but rather that she left although she knew, to her best knowledge, that Frontier did not have another viable weapon against the Vajra to defend itself. Furthermore, she took another one of the few still working weapons ( Breras Quantum Beam armed Valkyrie ) with her.
It's just speculations about the casualties. We don't know it.
Furthermore LAI has developed weapons but not on time. A Valkyrie with a light quantum beam still cannot kill a vajra flag ship. So the "loss" is at a minimum. The loss of MQ is another story but as most of the crew don't follow a traitor president, they count out to the "we-blame-Ranka-for-all-reason-of-fail" list.

Another theory that Rankas decision to leave was correct is that she is no more a source to lure the Vajra as she has the highest fold wave level in the fleet. With her leave, most of Vajra will not be able to trace a source they want to "protect".
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:03   Link #2168
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"Saving her own butt" by flying straight to the gates of hell. Sorry, but try next.
You were talking with Wisteria about Ranka singing for Frontier, not flying to the Vajra, at least as far as was understandable from what you wrote.

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It's just speculations about the casualties. We don't know it.
Furthermore LAI has developed weapons but not on time. A Valkyrie with a light quantum beam still cannot kill a vajra flag ship. So the "loss" is at a minimum. The loss of MQ is another story but as most of the crew don't follow a traitor president, they count out to the "we-blame-Ranka-for-all-reason-of-fail" list.

Another theory that Rankas decision to leave was correct is that she is no more a source to lure the Vajra as she has the highest fold wave level in the fleet. With her leave, most of Vajra will not be able to trace a source they want to "protect".
Yeah, but Ranka doesn't know all of that. That is what makes her just leaving so rresponsible. We are not discussing the ultimate implications as seen from a God's eyes view, but from her viewpoint.
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:15   Link #2169
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Ranka is the inferior green haired character who has Kira in their catchphrase, discuss.

Exhibit 1.

Spoiler for Prob NSFW:
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:25   Link #2170
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Yeah, but Ranka doesn't know all of that. That is what makes her just leaving so rresponsible. We are not discussing the ultimate implications as seen from a God's eyes view, but from her viewpoint.
True, Ranka doesn't know about Leon and his plans (or Grace and hers), but again, how are you so sure she doesn't understand her connection to the Vajra?
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:37   Link #2171
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True, Ranka doesn't know about Leon and his plans (or Grace and hers), but again, how are you so sure she doesn't understand her connection to the Vajra?
This is not about that particular aspect, but about the ones raised on this last page. We already discussed two or three pages about the point you are raising again just shortly ago.
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:44   Link #2172
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This is not about that particular aspect, but about the ones raised on this last page. We already discussed two or three pages about the point you are raising again just shortly ago.
But Father Hentai raised TWO points, and you replied "Ranka doesn't know all of that" without specifying one or the other or both. One of the points, yes, she clearly doesn't know. The other, she may.
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Old 2010-11-11, 03:54   Link #2173
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And my stance on that hasn't changed a bit. Making baseless statements of "She knew it all along!" when her actual statements don't corroborate this view at all is just baseless speculation.
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:15   Link #2174
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And my stance on that hasn't changed a bit. Making baseless statements of "She knew it all along!" when her actual statements don't corroborate this view at all is just baseless speculation.
Again, WHICH actual statements show that she doesn't know anything about her connection to the Vajra? Every time I ask this, you attack me instead of answering.
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:23   Link #2175
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Again, WHICH actual statements show that she doesn't know anything about her connection to the Vajra? Every time I ask this, you attack me instead of answering.
I'll just quote myself on this:

If her intention was to explain to Alto why she was leaving, you don't think she would have added "Oh and btw, I am certain that the Vajra are coming here only for me"?

There is absolutely no rational reason for her not to mention this, especially in the context of her desperately wanting Alto to come with her on her journey or at least understand why she is leaving on a seeming suicide mission.

Of course, if the argument is "Ranka is so fucking stupid and self-absorbed that she doesn't even think about giving hard arguments to Alto why she needs to leave on this dangerous mission and can only come up with "I think I may be this and that and I need to find it out. Oh, and bring Ai-kun back to his people, teehee!", then, fine, you can have your theory that she knew it all along. But not the one without the other. Because either you accept that the stated reasons were her reasons or your wild hypothesis must also accept the clear inference what that means for what she actually said to Alto.
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:44   Link #2176
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I'll just quote myself on this:

If her intention was to explain to Alto why she was leaving, you don't think she would have added "Oh and btw, I am certain that the Vajra are coming here only for me"?

There is absolutely no rational reason for her not to mention this, especially in the context of her desperately wanting Alto to come with her on her journey or at least understand why she is leaving on a seeming suicide mission.

Of course, if the argument is "Ranka is so fucking stupid and self-absorbed that she doesn't even think about giving hard arguments to Alto why she needs to leave on this dangerous mission and can only come up with "I think I may be this and that and I need to find it out. Oh, and bring Ai-kun back to his people, teehee!", then, fine, you can have your theory that she knew it all along. But not the one without the other. Because either you accept that the stated reasons were her reasons or your wild hypothesis must also accept the clear inference what that means for what she actually said to Alto.
*sigh*

Do you want me to quote my earlier response to that, as well? 'Cause I can, but I'd rather not.

First...communication failure IS one of the main themes of the show, is it not?

As I said before, she's having a tough time trying to communicate as it is. She's terrified by what she has to do, and she doesn't know how to tell Alto, let alone how to convince him to come along with her.

I believe most of us are familiar with being in a highly-charged, emotionally tense situation, trying to find exactly the right thing to say, and failing miserably. It's part of life. So yeah...Ranka is "fucking stupid," but so am I. And so are you. And so is pretty much everyone in the world.
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:52   Link #2177
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*sigh*

Do you want me to quote my earlier response to that, as well? 'Cause I can, but I'd rather not.

First...communication failure IS one of the main themes of the show, is it not?

As I said before, she's having a tough time trying to communicate as it is. She's terrified by what she has to do, and she doesn't know how to tell Alto, let alone how to convince him to come along with her.

I believe most of us are familiar with being in a highly-charged, emotionally tense situation, trying to find exactly the right thing to say, and failing miserably. It's part of life. So yeah...Ranka is "fucking stupid," but so am I. And so are you. And so is pretty much everyone in the world.
Speak for yourself on this. If the best you can come up with for a 100% hypothetical scenario, which never was shown to have any basis in reality, is "And Ranka was too afraid to vocalize it", then I don't know where your actual argument lies. If there ever was one to begin with.

But in the end of course you will be going back to claiming "It was only a hypothesis, why are you so upset about it?", won't you? Well, I am upset, because apparently you want to have it both ways. You want this hypothesis to be recognized as something believable ( which it is not, unless you can bring some evidence ) and at the same time you want to be able to step back when people bring up your lack of evidence and go "I'm just saying!"
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Old 2010-11-11, 04:55   Link #2178
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Ranka is the inferior green haired character who has Kira in their catchphrase, discuss.

Exhibit 1.

Spoiler for Prob NSFW:
I LOL'ed. Very, very loudly.
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Old 2010-11-11, 05:02   Link #2179
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I'll just quote myself on this:

If her intention was to explain to Alto why she was leaving, you don't think she would have added "Oh and btw, I am certain that the Vajra are coming here only for me"?

There is absolutely no rational reason for her not to mention this, especially in the context of her desperately wanting Alto to come with her on her journey or at least understand why she is leaving on a seeming suicide mission.

Of course, if the argument is "Ranka is so fucking stupid and self-absorbed that she doesn't even think about giving hard arguments to Alto why she needs to leave on this dangerous mission and can only come up with "I think I may be this and that and I need to find it out. Oh, and bring Ai-kun back to his people, teehee!", then, fine, you can have your theory that she knew it all along. But not the one without the other. Because either you accept that the stated reasons were her reasons or your wild hypothesis must also accept the clear inference what that means for what she actually said to Alto.
You are still dodging Yot-chans questions.

But you are correct. She does not know how potential her fold wave level is. Only Grace and lateron Leon/Lucca are aware of it. I also did not say that she knew about this. I just said that her movement is a positive sideeffect to lure the Vajra away from the fleet because she is a potential fold wave beacon. The main reason she left is because she wants to know what her role was in the destruction of the 117th Science fleet and why she is only capable to communicate with the Vajra. (Unknown to her Sheryl had developed a latent Fold Wave communication due to her disease).

Edit: Removing "and that the Vajra react to it". I remove this as she knows that they react to her song latest by episode 16. The problem she only has is to "communicate correct with the Vajra".

Btw. As you mention she is on a suicide mission. Leons movement to the vajra planet is suicide as well. Sheryl self-sacrificing is suicide as well. Fighting the Vajra and the Galaxy is suicide as well. What a bunch of people we have who are willing to go suicide.

I don't think it is a reason to discuss if it's suicide or not. More important was the message to make decisions of her own without asking others for their opinion.
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Old 2010-11-11, 05:52   Link #2180
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Speak for yourself on this.
Really? You've never screwed up under duress and said the wrong thing? Ever?

I'm sorry, I don't believe you.

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If the best you can come up with for a 100% hypothetical scenario, which never was shown to have any basis in reality, is "And Ranka was too afraid to vocalize it", then I don't know where your actual argument lies. If there ever was one to begin with.

But in the end of course you will be going back to claiming "It was only a hypothesis, why are you so upset about it?", won't you? Well, I am upset, because apparently you want to have it both ways. You want this hypothesis to be recognized as something believable ( which it is not, unless you can bring some evidence ) and at the same time you want to be able to step back when people bring up your lack of evidence and go "I'm just saying!"
Again, you attack instead of answering.

But okay, I'll bite: I'm not trying to have it both ways, really. I'm sure you understand that there's a vast gulf between saying "Ranka doesn't know what she's doing" and "I believe Ranka doesn't know what she's doing."

I make sure that my inferences and suppositions are phrased so that it is CLEAR that they are inferences and suppositions. I don't expect anyone to agree with them, really, but if you're going to say they're impossible, then tell me why. Preferably in a way that doesn't involve inferences and suppositions of your own.

I can't counter your points definitively, because they're your opinion and reading of the situation. Likewise, you can't counter mine. Neither of us KNOWS what was going on in Ranka's head when she left. The difference is that I choose to give her the benefit of a doubt, and you choose to condemn her.

So yes, my situations are hypothetical. So are yours. You've articulated a POSSIBLE reading of the situation, but by no means the ONLY reading. I've provided another. Opinion vs. opinion is all well and good, as long as both participants REALIZE that they are talking about opinion. Or, if you have a factual basis for your interpretation, let me know what it is.
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