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Old 2010-11-11, 07:00   Link #2181
BetoJR
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That's because some opinions are better than others, dude. Don't you know THAT?

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Old 2010-11-11, 07:17   Link #2182
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This all "knowing or not knowing" is making tired. As both negates, it's time to provide proofs or to accept both opinions. No matter if one is better or not. Neither part will be able to convince the other as it's branded in their head.

This gets off topic by now. Somehow we can get back to topic?
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Old 2010-11-11, 08:27   Link #2183
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Somehow, I don't think they ever got out of the topic.

However, discussing opinions is quite tiresome, indeed. Sometimes, we get a bit of the LOLz in here, but most of the time, it's just tiresome...
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Old 2010-11-11, 09:07   Link #2184
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
This gets off topic by now. Somehow we can get back to topic?
I am afraid this is not easy to do lol...perhaps we should make numerous sub-thread about Ranka so ppl would know where to go, but I can guarantee that it won't help

Anyway, can you guys refrain from using swearing words in this thread? It is very painful for me to see my favorite character's thread got associated with swearing words (besides I think it's against the forum policy??)

And....is it okay to spell her name correctly?? her name is not that long, R-A-N-K-A...I don't really care what you guys call her outside this thread, but please be a little considerate in here??

Of course, I am not a mod, so you don't have to follow my suggestion...just suggesting, that's all
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Old 2010-11-11, 12:37   Link #2185
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
You are still dodging Yot-chans questions.
What the fuck are you talking about? I answered exactly what he asked. If you want to add to this conversation constructively, then please elucidate on the point I am supposedly dodging, instead of just stating nonsense.

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But you are correct. She does not know how potential her fold wave level is. Only Grace and lateron Leon/Lucca are aware of it. I also did not say that she knew about this. I just said that her movement is a positive sideeffect to lure the Vajra away from the fleet because she is a potential fold wave beacon. The main reason she left is because she wants to know what her role was in the destruction of the 117th Science fleet and why she is only capable to communicate with the Vajra. (Unknown to her Sheryl had developed a latent Fold Wave communication due to her disease).

Edit: Removing "and that the Vajra react to it". I remove this as she knows that they react to her song latest by episode 16. The problem she only has is to "communicate correct with the Vajra".

Btw. As you mention she is on a suicide mission. Leons movement to the vajra planet is suicide as well. Sheryl self-sacrificing is suicide as well. Fighting the Vajra and the Galaxy is suicide as well. What a bunch of people we have who are willing to go suicide.

I don't think it is a reason to discuss if it's suicide or not. More important was the message to make decisions of her own without asking others for their opinion.
Her unilateral decision to leave still puts Frontier in danger.

There is a very large difference between a "suicide" mission and a "last resort" mission, morally. One is an act of recklessness, while the other one is born out of all other possibilities having been closed off.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Really? You've never screwed up under duress and said the wrong thing? Ever?

I'm sorry, I don't believe you.
I never tried to convince someone to go on a suicide mission with me and abandon my family and compatriots to horrible deaths, so I don't think any personal experiences even remotely compare.

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Again, you attack instead of answering.
Bullshit. I answered.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
But okay, I'll bite: I'm not trying to have it both ways, really. I'm sure you understand that there's a vast gulf between saying "Ranka doesn't know what she's doing" and "I believe Ranka doesn't know what she's doing."

I make sure that my inferences and suppositions are phrased so that it is CLEAR that they are inferences and suppositions. I don't expect anyone to agree with them, really, but if you're going to say they're impossible, then tell me why. Preferably in a way that doesn't involve inferences and suppositions of your own.

I can't counter your points definitively, because they're your opinion and reading of the situation. Likewise, you can't counter mine. Neither of us KNOWS what was going on in Ranka's head when she left. The difference is that I choose to give her the benefit of a doubt, and you choose to condemn her.

So yes, my situations are hypothetical. So are yours. You've articulated a POSSIBLE reading of the situation, but by no means the ONLY reading. I've provided another. Opinion vs. opinion is all well and good, as long as both participants REALIZE that they are talking about opinion. Or, if you have a factual basis for your interpretation, let me know what it is.
Okay, since it is apparent you don't understand what I have been saying. Once more: We have statements from Ranka regarding why she is leaving Frontier. This is evidence. We do not have any statements from her to the effect that she was leaving due to knowing that the Vajra were specifically after her and all would be fine if she left. Neither do we have any evidence that she got this knowledge up until it was much too late, i.e. after she was captured by the Vajra and Grace.

That means that your hypothesis about her motivations is just purely conjectural, because we already have on one side a clear presence of statements of her intentions from the characters own mouth and on the other side zero factual evidence of what you are trying to sell as her "true" intention.

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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
That's because some opinions are better than others, dude. Don't you know THAT?

That is actually true, but let's not get into political philosophy here, which would be totally OT.
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:38   Link #2186
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Please stop the off-topic discussion of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate content. If you have a problem, please contact a moderator, or take the off-topic discussion to VM/PM.

For clarity's sake, 4Tran explicitly wrote "Do not insult or harass other members", and cursing as a way of answering a question (or as an exclamation of defense) is clearly a violation of that rule (more of an insult than an actual harassment). Additionally, while this is a PG-13 forum, cursing is acceptable as so long as it is not directed at other posters (if you want to scream at the creators, by all means, "yell" your head off, but do not turn that rage and/or annoyance on other posters).
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:39   Link #2187
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Her unilateral decision to leave still puts Frontier in danger.
I've said this before but I'll reiterate. If Ranka stays, doesn't it potentially put Frontier in danger as well considering her singing now has a negative effect on the Vajra as well as a positive?

You're right in saying that she might be putting Frontier in danger by leaving but it's also potentially dangerous for her to stay. If she does not have full control of the outcome, her leaving only puts herself (and Brera but that's besides the point) in danger rather than the people of Frontier.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Okay, since it is apparent you don't understand what I have been saying. Once more: We have statements from Ranka regarding why she is leaving Frontier. This is evidence. We do not have any statements from her to the effect that she was leaving due to knowing that the Vajra were specifically after her and all would be fine if she left. Neither do we have any evidence that she got this knowledge up until it was much too late, i.e. after she was captured by the Vajra and Grace.

That means that your hypothesis about her motivations is just purely conjectural, because we already have on one side a clear presence of statements of her intentions from the characters own mouth and on the other side zero factual evidence of what you are trying to sell as her "true" intention.
I hope you guys don't mind if I jump into this conversation, I'll take a stab it.

While it is true that Ranka wasn't sure if the Vajra were specifically coming for her or not, that does not mean that she doesn't have an idea. The most significant fact here is that she is fully aware that she is the only person on Frontier that has the power to effect the Vajra in one way or another. Another fact is in episode 21, when Ranka was used as bait. She sang and it lured the Vajra into one area so wouldn't that mean that this alone should be enough for her to realize that they follow her when she sings?

By leaving, Ranka can do much more for Frontier if we take this into consideration. Naturally, we can't be sure that Ranka had this in mind but once again we don't know what is going on in Ranka's head during this predicament. We know what her motivations are for leaving but her recovering memories make it difficult for her to thoroughly explain what's on her mind.

Just to make things as clear as I can, Ranka also didn't want to sing anymore because she feared what her singing would do. So rather than stay on Frontier and do nothing, she opted to leave and try to do something to help.
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:41   Link #2188
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thanks for the clarification, james0246
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:41   Link #2189
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Please stop the off-topic discussion of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate content. If you have a problem, please contact a moderator, or take the off-topic discussion to VM/PM.

For clarity's sake, 4Tran explicitly wrote "Do not insult or harass other members", and cursing as a way of answering a question (or as an exclamation of defense) is clearly a violation of that rule (more of an insult than an actual harassment). Additionally, while this is a PG-13 forum, cursing is acceptable as so long as it is not directed at other posters (if you want to scream at the creators, by all means, "yell" your head off, but do not turn that rage and/or annoyance on other posters).
Thanks, that clarifies that. Now, let's get back to argueing if Ranka is the worst Macross protagonist ever or just a cuddly adorable misunderstood little girl.
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:44   Link #2190
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Thanks, that clarifies that. Now, let's get back to argueing if Ranka is the worst Macross protagonist ever or just a cuddly adorable misunderstood little girl.
I'd much prefer if we go with the latter
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Old 2010-11-11, 15:51   Link #2191
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I like Ranka. I find her cute, and her personality fun. While she may lack the perceived "depth" of Sheryl, her eagerness to better herself (if sometimes for false reasons) and her desire to act (if sometimes too soon) make her a compelling and fun character.

*note: I have only seen the anime series, so any comment I have made is entirely based on the series.
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Old 2010-11-11, 16:00   Link #2192
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I've said this before but I'll reiterate. If Ranka stays, doesn't it potentially put Frontier in danger as well considering her singing now has a negative effect on the Vajra as well as a positive?

You're right in saying that she might be putting Frontier in danger by leaving but it's also potentially dangerous for her to stay. If she does not have full control of the outcome, her leaving only puts herself (and Brera but that's besides the point) in danger rather than the people of Frontier.
First off, I am basing my argument on them acting to the "best of their knowledge" at the point of a particular event. A God's Eye view of the events does not work well to analyze the viewpoints a particular character would have had.

That being said, thinking analytically about what the best course of action was, from my point of view Ranka should have stayed, since to the best of her knowledge Leon was not an evil conspirator but the new legitimate president of Frontier. She couldn't have known that he was trying to kill Ozma and Cathy and was conspiring with Grace.

While she did surely realize that her power could have both positive and negative effects on the Vajra, staying would have enabled the military of Frontier to conduct field tests to determine how it worked. Her running off on her own with only half an idea of what made her powers work in a particular way left her with much less support than she would have received on Frontier. And, as it turned out, made her an easy target for Grace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I hope you guys don't mind if I jump into this conversation, I'll take a stab it.

While it is true that Ranka wasn't sure if the Vajra were specifically coming for her or not, that does not mean that she doesn't have an idea. The most significant fact here is that she is fully aware that she is the only person on Frontier that has the power to effect the Vajra in one way or another. Another fact is in episode 21, when Ranka was used as bait. She sang and it lured the Vajra into one area so wouldn't that mean that this alone should be enough for her to realize that they follow her when she sings?

By leaving, Ranka can do much more for Frontier if we take this in consideration. Naturally, we can't be sure that Ranka had this in mind but once again we don't know what is going on in Ranka's head during this predicament. We know what her motivations are for leaving but her recovering memories make it difficult for her to thoroughly explain what's on her mind.

Just to make things as clear as I can, Ranka also didn't want to sing anymore because she feared what her singing would do. So rather than stay on Frontier and do nothing, she opted to leave and try to do something to help.
As stated above, to the best of Rankas knowledge she would have had military support for figuring out what was going on. As far as directly after the funeral, she clearly did not have a clear idea that the Vajra were coming specifically for her, only that her voice affected them.

After Ai-kun changed into his next form, she didn't state at any time that she knew that the Vajra were coming only for her. She did make clear statements, however, what her motivations for leaving were. As follows:

"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go." "I want to at least take Ai-kun back to where his friends are."

Those are two pretty clear statements. She wants to find her past and bring Ai-kun back. There is simply no statement here where she gives any hint that she has an idea that she knows her leaving will stop all attacks. On the contrary, she directly states that reason number one is why she will go.

Furthermore, re-watching this again ( and you are cruel, cruel people for making me do so repeatedly! ), I can't see her being very stressed while saying these exact phrases. She actually seems awfully calm. So a "communication failure" due to stress seems even more unlikely.
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Old 2010-11-11, 16:23   Link #2193
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I still for the most part maintain that Ranka was just in a bad position. She made a decision and while I can't say it was the best decision, she did nevertheless make one and stick to it. I do not believe it was a decision made out of malice or necessarily even selfishness, nor do I think she'd make a decision that she knew would harm others. In the re-watch thread I'll be watching Ranka a bit more closely to get a feel for what she must feel at any given moment. One theory I might suggest for the funeral is that she might have taken a measure of personal responsibility for the deaths of the soldiers, remembering how her singing actually seemed to make them more aggressive. I could see why someone would not want to sing if they thought they might have even accidentally had a hand in the deaths.

I'd also have to say that I feel Ranka never seemed to handle stress terrifically well, but improved throughout the series. Her dissociative amnesia was part of that, but she eventually overcomes it. The Ranka that left Frontier was different from the one that Alto saved at the start of the series.

I don't recall any indication that she knew the Vajra were coming for her at the point that she left Frontier though, but maybe I'll notice something in the rewatch.
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Old 2010-11-11, 18:47   Link #2194
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go." "I want to at least take Ai-kun back to where his friends are."
Um...you left out the word which I emphasized before as key when I quoted the same line: せめて, "semete," "at least."

Saying "At least, I want to take Ai-kun back to where his friends are" is a pretty definite statement that she has more than one thing she wants to accomplish, no? And that those things are not stated?
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Old 2010-11-11, 19:01   Link #2195
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Lancel, the important note is that Ranka has to be confident and that it is her decision and no one should influence it.

Until episode 21 her decisions was mostly because of one person. What she had to learn is that "Your songs are like your heart, they belong to no one but you." Brera said this to her before she sung to lure the Vajra into Island 3. I think it is an important note for her that she is not a tool. Maybe he said this as he is also a tool and does not want her to end like him but also to be more confident.

Her decision is clear and if someone has missed the scenes, here are the screenshots to verify that she is aware of her past and that she will and wants to go to the place where it all began:




"I'm scared,


Conclusion:




The scenes between is also important.

As the tendency of Macross is "either us or the Vajra!" (quoted Lucca from episode 21) this seems not to be a slogan Ranka has confidence in. And that Ai-kun did not kill her is justification enough for her theory that Vajras can be different and not only giant sized killerbugs. But sad to mention it is Alto who is all deaf to her words and which heatens up the situation.

AND F*censore*K Yot-chan was faster D: But glad that we mostly think the same.

Edit: magnus, it does not matter if she knows if macross is defenseless or not. It's not her responsibility any longer as she "cannot" sing anymore (to my understanding the missing part is "to sing as a tool"). As well it's the army men who are responsible to protect and not a civilian. Ranka is not part of the army and as a volunteer she took her free will to make a decision.
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Old 2010-11-11, 19:40   Link #2196
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Um...you left out the word which I emphasized before as key when I quoted the same line: せめて, "semete," "at least."

Saying "At least, I want to take Ai-kun back to where his friends are" is a pretty definite statement that she has more than one thing she wants to accomplish, no? And that those things are not stated?
Uh, actually it is in my quote. Only in another position, where THORA put it, not me.

And, yes, she stated the other things she wanted to do before the sentence about Ai-kun. Read the quote again.

"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go."


So, yep, she has two clearly stated goals. None of them include "And I need to go away from Frontier, because I am the sole cause they are coming here".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Edit: magnus, it does not matter if she knows if macross is defenseless or not. It's not her responsibility any longer as she "cannot" sing anymore (to my understanding the missing part is "to sing as a tool"). As well it's the army men who are responsible to protect and not a civilian. Ranka is not part of the army and as a volunteer she took her free will to make a decision.
Well, I call bullshit on that. She agreed before to lend her powers to protect Frontier. Of her own free will, as she stated in episode 16 and again in episode 18. That entails responsibility for her fellow citizens, which she promised to protect.

And that she "cannot sing anymore" is directly contradicted by going to the Vajra and singing for them to appease them. Or do you really want to sell the notion that Rankas intent in episode 23 was to enrage the Vajra with her singing?

And, honestly, what exactly is your argument here? "Okay, Ranka isn't responsible for the lives of her fellow citizen, which she before promised to protect! She can leave them to die at any time!"? Is that really what you want to hang on Ranka? You should think a bit what the reverse implications of an assigned motivation are before claiming it for your heroine.
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Old 2010-11-11, 20:09   Link #2197
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Uh, actually it is in my quote. Only in another position, where THORA put it, not me.
I quoted it as well, a couple of weeks ago...in fact, it was that quote that started me off on this whole line of thinking.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And, yes, she stated the other things she wanted to do before the sentence about Ai-kun. Read the quote again.

"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go."


So, yep, she has two clearly stated goals. None of them include "And I need to go away from Frontier, because I am the sole cause they are coming here".
So you honestly think she would go to the Vajra, find out all about her past, say, "thanks very much," and trot back, doing absolutely nothing with the information she'd already gleaned?

Wow, you really give her absolutely NO credit, do you?
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Old 2010-11-11, 20:24   Link #2198
Father Hentai
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Well, I call bullshit on that. She agreed before to lend her powers to protect Frontier. Of her own free will, as she stated in episode 16 and again in episode 18. That entails responsibility for her fellow citizens, which she promised to protect.

And that she "cannot sing anymore" is directly contradicted by going to the Vajra and singing for them to appease them. Or do you really want to sell the notion that Rankas intent in episode 23 was to enrage the Vajra with her singing?

And, honestly, what exactly is your argument here? "Okay, Ranka isn't responsible for the lives of her fellow citizen, which she before promised to protect! She can leave them to die at any time!"? Is that really what you want to hang on Ranka? You should think a bit what the reverse implications of an assigned motivation are before claiming it for your heroine.
Call it how you please you have to. But I question that she promised to protect Frontier because
1) other took the decision that she is the hope of the fleet:


2) It was decided that she has to take part of the experiment:


3) She sees the decision by the government herself as presumptuous:


4) She just wanted to sing and not to be a songstress of hope:


This was episode all in episode 16.

May we give the government the credit that the intention at the beginning was honest, at the end it just ended her being used as a tool. And that is the sad part. She really was not asked if she all wanted to be. Maybe she may get used to it, but at heart she always felt that she was singing for only one person.

And no, I did not say that she does want frontier fleet to die but there are more than one way to protect the fleet even without her. Ranka finally makes her steps and decided to leave because she feels going back to the vajra planet is what she has to do. I don't agree that she has to stay with Frontier, because Frontier is capable to defend even though the scientists are slow. But each time the Vajra enhance, Macross can enhance their defense as well or they could have changed their flight route. And I don't add her to macross defense options because she is not a tool.

To simplify what I am thinking:


This is why I am being very defense in case of Ranka but I would also think the same of Sheryl, Klan and (Yot-chan, don't be jealous) Nanase.
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Old 2010-11-11, 20:28   Link #2199
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I quoted it as well, a couple of weeks ago...in fact, it was that quote that started me off on this whole line of thinking.
Which has to do what exactly with you accusing me of leaving out part of the quote?

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
So you honestly think she would go to the Vajra, find out all about her past, say, "thanks very much," and trot back, doing absolutely nothing with the information she'd already gleaned?

Wow, you really give her absolutely NO credit, do you?
Okay, why are you evading the actual question in discussion now? And what have Rankas expectations of what her trip will result in have to do with a discussion of that particular hypothetical motivation you claim for her?

@Father Hentai: Also interesting quotes from episode 16, 17 and 18:

Ep 16: Ozma: Is this what you wished for?
Ranka: Yes
Ozma: I understand

Ep 17: Ranka: All right! If my singing can be even the slightest help, that's for the best, right? I'll sing. It'll be my best singing.

Ep 18: Leon: She wanted to do this. She said she wants to protect the fleet even if it puts her life in jeopardy.
...
President Glass: Will you do it, Ranka-san?
Ranka: <nods>

I'd say that those are pretty definite statements that she agreed to protect Frontier.
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Old 2010-11-11, 20:56   Link #2200
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I reviewed the sentences you quoted but the problem I had is it did not truly convince me.

Ep 16: Ozma: Is this what you wished for?
Ranka: Yes
Ozma: I understand

- There was a long gap until Ranka replied as well as Ozma confirmed. For me there still seems to be an inner conflict.

Ep 17: Ranka: All right! If my singing can be even the slightest help, that's for the best, right? I'll sing. It'll be my best singing.

- She asked Alto how he thinks of the experiment. And I believe (as a girl in love) Ranka just agreed because of Alto

Ep 18: Leon: She wanted to do this. She said she wants to protect the fleet even if it puts her life in jeopardy.

- Leon said this. I have doubt if this was really her words or he just said so to promote Ranka as the songstress of hope. My apologies, but before I trust a sly fox like Leon, I macronize myself and exchange fluids with a Vajra...

President Glass: Will you do it, Ranka-san?
Ranka: <nods>

- Ok, this may be a valid point that she agreed to defend. (How far is Ranka into the role that she has forgotten why she was exactly singing?)

The points you noted are quite good, but ony the last sentence can be a point to discuss that she agreed. All other are - for myself - questionable.
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