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Old 2010-11-12, 02:18   Link #2201
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Sorry to bombard you with yet another discussion here Magnus

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That being said, thinking analytically about what the best course of action was, from my point of view Ranka should have stayed, since to the best of her knowledge Leon was not an evil conspirator but the new legitimate president of Frontier. She couldn't have known that he was trying to kill Ozma and Cathy and was conspiring with Grace.

While she did surely realize that her power could have both positive and negative effects on the Vajra, staying would have enabled the military of Frontier to conduct field tests to determine how it worked. Her running off on her own with only half an idea of what made her powers work in a particular way left her with much less support than she would have received on Frontier. And, as it turned out, made her an easy target for Grace.
I believe we have misunderstood each other somewhere. What I mean by her staying is potentially dangerous is referring to her singing rather than Leon's plan, I don't even have him or Grace in mind here. If Ranka were to sing, she wouldn't be able to tell you what would happen next, that in itself is dangerous.

Conducting field tests would take time, time that they didn't have much of considering the state of Frontier after the chaos in episode 21. Also the test would be putting not only Ranka but the army at risk since I'd imagine that the troops have dwindled considerably after that particular incident. I'm not so sure that Frontier would be able to withstand another attack from the Vajra.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
As stated above, to the best of Rankas knowledge she would have had military support for figuring out what was going on. As far as directly after the funeral, she clearly did not have a clear idea that the Vajra were coming specifically for her, only that her voice affected them.

After Ai-kun changed into his next form, she didn't state at any time that she knew that the Vajra were coming only for her. She did make clear statements, however, what her motivations for leaving were. As follows:

"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... that is why I will go." "I want to at least take Ai-kun back to where his friends are."

Those are two pretty clear statements. She wants to find her past and bring Ai-kun back. There is simply no statement here where she gives any hint that she has an idea that she knows her leaving will stop all attacks. On the contrary, she directly states that reason number one is why she will go.
Don't forget one of the important quotes that I've repeated before:

"Everyone wants to live free, don't they?"

This reveals the idealistic plan she had for coexistence with the Vajra as well. It wasn't stated clearly but if we were to interpret this line, it would mean just that. Ranka tried to tell Alto but he obviously didn't want to hear it. This came before she stated her reasons for leaving and it seems to be the most important one.

I also made sure to say that she wasn't entirely sure if the Vajra were specifically targeting her, but it's plausible enough to believe she had somewhat of an idea as to why the Vajra keep coming. We also had the flashbacks in episode 21 when Ranka was singing to lure the Vajra, they were the same flashbacks used later to reveal the reasons for the Vajra's attacks.

Although like you said, they weren't clearly stated but there are plenty of inferences in this series that weren't clearly stated
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Old 2010-11-12, 04:30   Link #2202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
- Ok, this may be a valid point that she agreed to defend. (How far is Ranka into the role that she has forgotten why she was exactly singing?)

The points you noted are quite good, but ony the last sentence can be a point to discuss that she agreed. All other are - for myself - questionable.
The quotes only were there to show that Ranka herself agreed to help Frontier and wasn't "volunteered" by Grace alone.

But in the end, it doesn't matter, because it's Rankas civic duty to do the best in a crisis situation to help her fellow citizens ( and in this case herself, incidentally ).

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I believe we have misunderstood each other somewhere. What I mean by her staying is potentially dangerous is referring to her singing rather than Leon's plan, I don't even have him or Grace in mind here. If Ranka were to sing, she wouldn't be able to tell you what would happen next, that in itself is dangerous.

Conducting field tests would take time, time that they didn't have much of considering the state of Frontier after the chaos in episode 21. Also the test would be putting not only Ranka but the army at risk since I'd imagine that the troops have dwindled considerably after that particular incident. I'm not so sure that Frontier would be able to withstand another attack from the Vajra.
Allright, that is a somewhat valid point. If we go with the train of thought of "There were no good options" in Rankas mind, it seems like a viable solution to arrive at.

The problem I see here is that it's a series of hypotheticals, which in my opinion at least, have much less weight than staying to protect the citizens of Frontier. The way you put it, it goes like "My song might not work anymore at all, so the next attack might destroy Frontier, so I might get clues as to how to stop the war if I leave and I might be not killed outright by the Vajra".

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Don't forget one of the important quotes that I've repeated before:

"Everyone wants to live free, don't they?"

This reveals the idealistic plan she had for coexistence with the Vajra as well. It wasn't stated clearly but if we were to interpret this line, it would mean just that. Ranka tried to tell Alto but he obviously didn't want to hear it. This came before she stated her reasons for leaving and it seems to be the most important one.

I also made sure to say that she wasn't entirely sure if the Vajra were specifically targeting her, but it's plausible enough to believe she had somewhat of an idea as to why the Vajra keep coming. We also had the flashbacks in episode 21 when Ranka was singing to lure the Vajra, they were the same flashbacks used later to reveal the reasons for the Vajra's attacks.

Although like you said, they weren't clearly stated but there are plenty of inferences in this series that weren't clearly stated
The problem here is that I assign this line much less weight than you do. There are multiple possible interpretations to what she could have exactly meant with that line, and I think the one which you are choosing here seems to be one of the less likely ones. On the side we got explicit statements as to her purposem, which speak against the interpretation being bandied around now.
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Old 2010-11-12, 04:58   Link #2203
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Eh magnus, shame on you. the second quote is not from me...
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Old 2010-11-12, 05:19   Link #2204
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Eh magnus, shame on you. the second quote is not from me...
edit: Oh, I see what you mean there. Okay, changing it. I suppose I copy-pasted that wrong.
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Old 2010-11-13, 06:47   Link #2205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Okay, why are you evading the actual question in discussion now?
I'm not. She does indeed only mention two reasons. But, if I read you right, you're saying it's impossible (or at least highly unlikely) that she has other reasons as well, and I'm saying that isn't necessarily so.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And what have Rankas expectations of what her trip will result in have to do with a discussion of that particular hypothetical motivation you claim for her?
Okay, now I'm really not following you...expected results often ARE the motivation for undertaking a task, are they not?
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Old 2010-11-13, 07:36   Link #2206
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Let's leave aside you conveniently forgetting that you falsely accused me of misquoting and never corrected yourself, then.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I'm not. She does indeed only mention two reasons. But, if I read you right, you're saying it's impossible (or at least highly unlikely) that she has other reasons as well, and I'm saying that isn't necessarily so.
It is highly unlikely, beside the two reasons stated. Trying to then attribute more reasons to her without any corroborating evidence is just absolute speculation. I really don't understand why you are defending this position as if I just said the theory of relativity is wrong.

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Okay, now I'm really not following you...expected results often ARE the motivation for undertaking a task, are they not?
Re-read your own sentence again to which I was responding and then my response. What have her expectations for the journey to do with that particular motivation you are mockingly ascribing to her? She clearly wants to communicate with the Vajra, to find the missing aspects of her past. She clearly expects to make peaceful contact. Besides that, we reasonably can expect her to hope that she can find a peaceful resolution between Frontier and the Vajra. We cannot reasonably expect her to have gained some mystical knowledge that she was the sole focus of the Vajra attacks, because there is no evidence for that.
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:01   Link #2207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post


Re-read your own sentence again to which I was responding and then my response. What have her expectations for the journey to do with that particular motivation you are mockingly ascribing to her? She clearly wants to communicate with the Vajra, to find the missing aspects of her past. She clearly expects to make peaceful contact. Besides that, we reasonably can expect her to hope that she can find a peaceful resolution between Frontier and the Vajra. We cannot reasonably expect her to have gained some mystical knowledge that she was the sole focus of the Vajra attacks, because there is no evidence for that.
It's clear stated in episode 25 that the Vajra came for her to "rescue" her:
"So they tried to me from the ever-strange humans, because I could communicate through fold wave too." Episode 25 16:37 min.

So my conclusion: the fold wave communication is the evidence as she is permanent linked with the vajra.

And being able to "talk" with Ai-kun is fact.

So what are the main reasons she left? Clear reasons:
- To unravel her past
- bring back Ai-kun, as he is not save on board of Frontier (Note Ai-kun =/= big bad Vajra)

Assumed reasons:
- to communicate with the Vajra, because she is the only person who can communicate "clearly" with them (Sheryl will do as well in episode 25)
- to to find a peaceful solution for both aliens and humans
- to find out why she is the only one capable to communicate
- save her friends
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:06   Link #2208
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She doesn't show any signs of "speaking Vajra" until at least episode 23, though. It is only after Grace manipulated the Vajra through her that she clearly seems to understand what they are "saying".

Her prior interactions with Ai-kun are more in the realm of Ai-kun acting in a particular way and her reacting to it. Of course you can next claim that he explained to her through pantomime that she was the reason for the Vajra attacks. All off-screen, of course, and without her saying or even thinking about it.
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:20   Link #2209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
She doesn't show any signs of "speaking Vajra" until at least episode 23, though. It is only after Grace manipulated the Vajra through her that she clearly seems to understand what they are "saying".

Her prior interactions with Ai-kun are more in the realm of Ai-kun acting in a particular way and her reacting to it. Of course you can next claim that he explained to her through pantomime that she was the reason for the Vajra attacks. All off-screen, of course, and without her saying or even thinking about it.
Not quite a thing I would confirm. She communicates with them each time she is singing.

Ah btw. Aimo is the love/mating song of the series. An unlogical question: Does love need words to communicate?
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:22   Link #2210
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Yup, but does she understand what they are saying? Quite obviously not, according to what was actually shown in the show. Only in the last episode does she clearly say that she knows what the Vajra want and those are presented as very recent revelations of hers.
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:31   Link #2211
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Diplomacy is always rough if you don't understand each other. This confirms Yot-chans words: Communication is a fail in the series.

Anyhow, you have to try and start somehow to communicate. Giving this Ranka into credit her leave is reasonable and also taking the risk and responsibility of fail/success to build a peaceful solution between Vajra and Humans.

Anyhow, I'll follow up later. Shopping time. :/
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:34   Link #2212
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Uh, that is not the question in dispute. The hypothesis, as posited by Yot-Chan is: "Ranka secretly knew that the Vajra were attacking Frontier just because of her, that is why she left".

For which there is exactly zero evidence. And there is evidence of her real intentions, as per her actual statements of intent.

And I'm also going shopping. See y'all later.
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Old 2010-11-13, 08:50   Link #2213
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While everyone is shopping, let's take a step back from the circular discussion that seems to be happening and distill it down to the facts as shown in the episodes in question.
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Old 2010-11-13, 09:55   Link #2214
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While everyone is shopping, let's take a step back from the circular discussion that seems to be happening and distill it down to the facts as shown in the episodes in question.
I can do that. It's not as if I've been working from anyless than the facts.
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Old 2010-11-13, 10:04   Link #2215
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
The hypothesis, as posited by Yot-Chan is: "Ranka secretly knew that the Vajra were attacking Frontier just because of her, that is why she left".

For which there is exactly zero evidence. And there is evidence of her real intentions, as per her actual statements of intent.

And I'm also going shopping. See y'all later.
Well, depending if we considerthat Ranka gained memories that she was the reason Vajra destroyed the 117th Fleet, Yot-chan is correct. Not taking this in consideration it's hard to believe.
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Old 2010-11-13, 10:52   Link #2216
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Well, depending if we considerthat Ranka gained memories that she was the reason Vajra destroyed the 117th Fleet, Yot-chan is correct. Not taking this in consideration it's hard to believe.
Look at the later episodes, she did gain that knowledge only as recently as episode 23, beginning at 17:55. She had fragments of what had happened in the past, but wasn't able to meaningfully put them together before.
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Old 2010-11-13, 17:48   Link #2217
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While everyone is shopping, let's take a step back from the circular discussion that seems to be happening and distill it down to the facts as shown in the episodes in question.
But that was my original point...without knowing the facts of what she remembered and what she didn't, pretty much any attempt to say what exactly her plan was is doomed to be speculation.
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Old 2010-11-13, 18:49   Link #2218
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She did not remember clearly that the Vajra destroyed the 117th because of her singing, as much is clear from episode 23.
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Old 2010-11-13, 19:22   Link #2219
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Quick question because somehow I lost the red line.

What was the reason why we discussed about "Ranka secretly knew that the Vajra were attacking Frontier just because of her, that is why she left".?

Has this something to do with my statement that with Rankas leaving the attacks on Frontier would reduce/lure away from the flee?
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Old 2010-11-13, 19:40   Link #2220
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Because Yot-Chan cannot let go of his hypothesis, although it totally lacks any standing in supported canon. At least to my best knowledge, and I am pretty damned good at remembering minutae of what happened in the series. It happens when you watched it about five times and specific episodes and scenes uncounted times more.

And, regarding your second paragraph, since hypothetically Ranka knowing that she is the cause of the attacks on Frontier and her then leaving would logically reduce the attacks on Frontier, you could say that the two things are linked somewhat, yes.
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