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Old 2008-07-05, 16:33   Link #341
Swampstorm
Lovestruck Fool?
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And she didn't. Nanase just mentioned it to make sure, but Ranka had decided to do all that anyway.
But that's the part that I don't understand. Why should Nanase need to monitor the progress on Ranka's gift to Alto at all? If Ranka loves the guy and wants to express her feelings through a gift, then why would there be any doubts about Ranka following through with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, yes, she could have opened a cookbook. I don't see how asking for help from an actual human being instead makes her less as a person, though. Seriously, she was bad enough with Nanase helping her. It'd have been worse if all she had was a book. Or maybe she should have invented her own recipe?
A recipe is just a set of instructions. You get the same results whether someone gives you the instructions or if you find them in a book.

But why complicate things? It's clear that this particular recipe is something outside of Ranka's normal skillset, and there's nothing that says that she has to go with cookies. So why doesn't she do something that she both enjoys doing and has some practice with? How about plane shaped Nyan Nyan buns? Or how about simply creating a song about what she thinks about Alto? When you care about someone and simply want to express it, then ideas come pouring in on their own accord. There are plenty of possibilities out there.

Gift giving isn't supposed to be a big challenge. So unless both Ranka and Nanase had decided to combine their talents to give Alto a gift together, I don't see why Nanase's participation was necessary.

It's the combined effect of Nanase's involvement in all stages of Ranka's gift giving process that makes it look like she lead Ranka by the hand, every step of the way. That may not have actually been the case, but we can only go by what we saw. It would probably have been much easier for to see Ranka's actions as independent had we seen her put some effort into the gift in a scene which didn't involve Nanase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, as I said, she's growing little by little. It also underline one of her differences with Sheryl: she isn't shy about being grateful. Or acknowledging her faults.
If so, that sounds like a similarity to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And I felt that he was:
- denying the growth Ranka's undergone since the show started
He wasn't writing about whether Ranka had grown or not. He was just stating that he generally disliked how Ranka's character had been written, thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
- holding her to impossible standards, since the only times she "waited to be rescued" were situations where she was understandably helpless. (Inability to fly or to fight giant bugs.)
Well, if escaping from the Vajra nest is not something that Ranka "should able to handle on her own", then it certainly doesn't qualify under his original statement, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's not about loving or hating the characters. It's about being fair.
Any discussion of "worth" has to take place relative to a system of values. But whose values do we use? Yours? Mine?

"Fair" doesn't exist, as far as preferences are concerned. The very fact that they're "preferences" makes them distinctly unfair. The only thing that matters in all this is your love for the characters. You can't tell someone else why they oughtn't to think poorly of a character. But you can tell them why you love the character in question.

And who knows? Love can be infectious.
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Old 2008-07-05, 17:49   Link #342
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
But that's the part that I don't understand. Why should Nanase need to monitor the progress on Ranka's gift to Alto at all?
Because she's interested and wants to know how it's going.

Quote:
If Ranka loves the guy and wants to express her feelings through a gift, then why would there be any doubts about Ranka following through with it?
Because she's shy and may chicken out. There's also the question of whether she actually like him and wants to express it.

Quote:
A recipe is just a set of instructions. You get the same results whether someone gives you the instructions or if you find them in a book.
Wrong. I've read recipes and didn't make it very far past the ingredient list. With a human being, if there's something you don't understand, you can ask for explanations. I don't really remember, but there's also the possibility Nanase oversaw part of the process. A book can't do that.

Quote:
But why complicate things? It's clear that this particular recipe is something outside of Ranka's normal skillset, and there's nothing that says that she has to go with cookies. So why doesn't she do something that she both enjoys doing and has some practice with? How about plane shaped Nyan Nyan buns?
Plane shaped buns? How does that work? And we don't know that she can cook at all. All we know is, she got buns from her workplace.

Quote:
Or how about simply creating a song about what she thinks about Alto?
She may not be much of a writer. Or lack inspiration. Besides, it'd be pretentious of her to do so - despite the fact that things are going well, she's still a rookie in the entertainment industry, not a confirmed pro.

Quote:
When you care about someone and simply want to express it, then ideas come pouring in on their own accord.
Yes, love is power! Love can change the world, makes you scream a name while jumping in a waterfall or whatever it was. More seriously, caring about someone doesn't necessarily give you any special insights or inspiration. It enabled her to try her best with various level of successes, but I'm not going to look at her lack of imagination concerning birthday gifts and conclude she doesn't like Alto.

Quote:
There are plenty of possibilities out there.
Such as?

Quote:
Gift giving isn't supposed to be a big challenge. So unless both Ranka and Nanase had decided to combine their talents to give Alto a gift together, I don't see why Nanase's participation was necessary.
And I don't see why it's bad that she asked for advice. Part of "trying hard" is "not picking whatever is easy and saying 'whatever', it's not like it's supposed to be a big challenge". Maybe Ranka tries too hard. One could certainly argue for the value of something store-bought, made by a skilled artisan, vs the more personal but potentially shoddy homemade stuff. But IMO, it's more endearing than not trying hard enough.

Quote:
It's the combined effect of Nanase's involvement in all stages of Ranka's gift giving process that makes it look like she lead Ranka by the hand, every step of the way. That may not have actually been the case, but we can only go by what we saw. It would probably have been much easier for to see Ranka's actions as independent had we seen her put some effort into the gift in a scene which didn't involve Nanase.
What independence? She heard, probably from Nanase, Alto's birthday was coming up, and decided to do something about it. Did we see her get browbeaten into it? Did we see it took an enormous amount of effort to convince her? Yes, Nanase was involved. Mostly because she likes being involved in Ranka's life. So what?

Quote:
If so, that sounds like a similarity to me.
Not really. Sheryl acts like it's a privilege to help her, and admits she doesn't thank people often. She isn't precisely ungrateful, but it certainly embarrasses her to say "thank you", so she avoids doing it.

Quote:
He wasn't writing about whether Ranka had grown or not. He was just stating that he generally disliked how Ranka's character had been written, thus far.
Allow me to quote what I was answering to:
Quote:
lately all she has been doing is crying Alto to rescue her from situations that she should be able to handle on her own.
When's the last time she's cried for Alto to rescue her? Gallia 4, when she was prisoner of the giant bugs. The time before that? When she was taken prisoner by said giant bugs. The time before that? When she was attacked by an hydra. So, which of those situation should she have "been able to handle by herself"? Also, it's not all we've seen from her. We've also seen her career progress and her confidence grow, from "I don't know if I can play Mayan Girl B" to "I'll play Mao" to "Listen to me, Zentran lolicon, and stop fighting!". He was denying that. We've also seen her relationship with Alto go to the point where she wanted to do something nice and personal for him. Even if her efforts failed. And yes, she didn't precisely do it on her own, but I don't see why she should have.

Quote:
Well, if escaping from the Vajra nest is not something that Ranka "should able to handle on her own", then it certainly doesn't qualify under his original statement, does it?
No, I think it doesn't fall under it. Considering Ickem's use of the word "all", he may disagree.

Quote:
Any discussion of "worth" has to take place relative to a system of values. But whose values do we use? Yours? Mine?

"Fair" doesn't exist, as far as preferences are concerned. The very fact that they're "preferences" makes them distinctly unfair. The only thing that matters in all this is your love for the characters. You can't tell someone else why they oughtn't to think poorly of a character. But you can tell them why you love the character in question.

And who knows? Love can be infectious.
There are also some objective criteria. For example, Ranka didn't poison Sheryl. Any statement to the contrary would be "unfair". If you don't like a character, you tend to see the worst in them, and deny their good sides. (And conversely, if you like them, you'll see the best and deny the bad.) You can either let that impulse rule you, or you can try to be... "fair". Disliking Ranka for her dog-ears like hair and fangs? Fair, she really has those. Disliking her because - and claiming that - she spends all her screentime crying for Alto when she should be solving her problems on her own? Unfair. Not only does she do more than crying, but when she does, it generally involves some big, dangerous creature she can do little about.
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Old 2008-07-05, 18:21   Link #343
Teletha
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Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
Personally, I'd rather not see Ranka 'grow up' other than merely adapting. I think even her stage presence comes from that innocence rather than being a headstrong diva necessarily (wait, that was incredibly paradoxical, but whatever).

But yeah, I think leaning on others for support is an asset as long as you don't abuse it. And since we're talking about an intergalactic war here, if Ranka's friends are put in danger through all this, I don't think you can blame her alone here, if at all.

Another antithesis of Ranka in regards to Sheryl is that Sheryl is not a loner on the outside (Galactic Fairy, millions of fans, heavy support structure) while she STRIVES to become a loner and tries to do things herself. With Ranka, nobody can really delve into her trauma, her shyness (I can totally understand shyness. It's an uncontrollable personality quirk and yet some people think you control that kind of innate shyness) and her loneliness from losing her biological family. And yet she strives for that connection outward. It's strange, but if you believe you're too weak to do something and lean on others for support, there's a weird sense of self reliance from that act.
I totally disagree with that. I'd say Sheryl might appear to have connections, but it's actually Ranka who has things she takes for granted. Ranka has support from everyone in the show. It's all about Ranka, all the time. About what she feels, about what she wants and everyone supports her. Those are real connections. Of course, I don't blame them because she is their friend and little sister of their commander. But Sheryl has support from fans and others, but that support is very fleeting. Ranka has real people that will still love her even if she fails. Despite of her flaws, or because of her shyness. I don't think Sheryl has that at all. She doesn't strive to be a loner. She just had to rely on herself throughout the years so she does everything her self and succeeds with her own power.

I'd also say Sheryl shares a bit of the same loneliness of losing a family, only difference is Ranka actually got a surrogate family. I'm not trying to say "poor Sheryl" because I don't think Sheryl would like to people to pity her. But they really do come from similar circumstances.

I don't think Ranka has to be like Sheryl, but I'd love for her to stand up on her own two feet and realize she's not as helpless (just in general) as she acts sometimes. She doesn't have to have Alto cheer her up or rely on Nanase to push her forward. She showed signs in episode 12, but Alto ignoring her is hardly the worst thing in the world that is likely to happen to her. It'll be interested to see how she reacts when she really loses something (if she does).
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Old 2008-07-05, 20:29   Link #344
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletha View Post
I don't think Ranka has to be like Sheryl, but I'd love for her to stand up on her own two feet and realize she's not as helpless (just in general) as she acts sometimes. She doesn't have to have Alto cheer her up or rely on Nanase to push her forward. She showed signs in episode 12, but Alto ignoring her is hardly the worst thing in the world that is likely to happen to her. It'll be interested to see how she reacts when she really loses something (if she does).
These reasons could also explain Ranka's lack of popularity in the English forums. She's getting beaten out by secondary characters like Klein Klein, and even Michael is giving her a run for her money.

Why do people think Sheryl has this huge support, just because she's famous? Don't they see what happens to a star when they fall? People aren't there to catch them. They are there to witness it, and ridicule them. She has no personal connections outside of Alto. Ranka has every connection you can imagine. Family, friends, love interests, professional, etc, etc.

If Ranka doesn't grow up and change as a character, she will remain a secondary character in terms of popularity among the viewers. It's just the way it is.
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Old 2008-07-05, 20:36   Link #345
Westlo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletha View Post
It'll be interested to see how she reacts when she really loses something (if she does).
I'm thinking she's going to lose Ozma (possibly by Brera's hands) and will than use Alto as a crutch even more than she is right now. Her real growth as a character will be in the last few episodes when she finally matures after losing Alto to Sheryl. Ani_D likes to say she shines brightest when around Alto, I'll like to see Ranka shine without having to rely on Alto in addition to growing up.
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Old 2008-07-05, 20:43   Link #346
Eurys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If you don't like a character, you tend to see the worst in them, and deny their good sides. (And conversely, if you like them, you'll see the best and deny the bad.) You can either let that impulse rule you, or you can try to be... "fair".
Well, it's not only about that. Don't forget we are an audience who needs to be entertained so we don't always have the will or patience to enjoy a character when one of his flaws (even if it's only one flaw) has been focused on several times (And no change was made yet). The show is only 25-something episodes, so it's really easy to be frustrated with such characters when it wouldn't matter in real life or even in a longer show .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletha View Post
I don't think Ranka has to be like Sheryl, but I'd love for her to stand up on her own two feet and realize she's not as helpless (just in general) as she acts sometimes.
This last episode supports that argument too. I'm talking about the moment when Alto says to Ranka it's ok to not remember one's past if it's painful, once again shielding her from "harm"... Obviously, it's similar to running away and you just know at one point that Ranka will have to find the strength to face those painful memories (and they don't seem to be all painful though).
Alto disappointed me a bit there Or course it was not the moment to play psy with Ranka, but to say she should not remember her past...
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Old 2008-07-05, 21:36   Link #347
Swampstorm
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Because she's interested and wants to know how it's going.
Her interest isn't academic. When Nanase hears that Ranka hasn't sent Alto the invitation yet, Nanase starts telling Ranka about how worried she is about Sheryl and Alto getting together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Because she's shy and may chicken out. There's also the question of whether she actually like him and wants to express it.
That's an example of Ranka depending on Nanase to solve a problem that she should be able to overcome on her own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Wrong. I've read recipes and didn't make it very far past the ingredient list. With a human being, if there's something you don't understand, you can ask for explanations. I don't really remember, but there's also the possibility Nanase oversaw part of the process. A book can't do that.
That's why you should always read through a recipe completely before you even start to look for ingredients. The same is true if you hear a recipe through word of mouth. You don't want to be asking questions on the phone when you've got a pot bubbling away on the stove and a steak on the grill.

That being said, cookies aren't supposed to be all that complicated in the first place. If she found a recipe that was too difficult, then it would be an easy enough matter to find another one that matched her own skill level.

For one thing, cookies are popular with kids. I'm fairly certain that there'd be at least one book out there written with a young audience in mind. Such a recipe should be easy enough to follow. If she can't do that, either, then she'd be better off finding something else that is better suited to her strengths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Plane shaped buns? How does that work?
The same way plane shaped cookies do. You're still working with dough, so you'd need is some sort of template to get the dough into the proper shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And we don't know that she can cook at all. All we know is, she got buns from her workplace.
I knew that she was a good cook from reading her blog. But I'm just showing you that other possibilities exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
She may not be much of a writer. Or lack inspiration. Besides, it'd be pretentious of her to do so - despite the fact that things are going well, she's still a rookie in the entertainment industry, not a confirmed pro.
You don't have to be a pro in the music industry to write a love song, or any song for that matter. There's nothing pretentious about it at all.

But even just take singing, for example. Ranka could find a song that expressed her thoughts and feelings about Alto, and sing it to him. Doing it in a very public place could even add in an element of playful humor, if that's her style (and she can certainly pull it off, now that she's not shy about singing in public anymore).

If she tried contacting Alto early on and found that she couldn't get through, she could run a quick test to see how long of a message she could leave in his answering machine, and leave him a song there. There's often a solution to be had, if you're just willing to problem solve.

The point is to have fun with the whole process, rather than making it into some sort of ordeal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, love is power! Love can change the world, makes you scream a name while jumping in a waterfall or whatever it was.
You're absolutely right. That's why I thought that Miss Fenette was very cute when she delivered those lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
More seriously, caring about someone doesn't necessarily give you any special insights or inspiration. It enabled her to try her best with various level of successes, but I'm not going to look at her lack of imagination concerning birthday gifts and conclude she doesn't like Alto.
It's not even an issue of being especially creative or clever. If you love someone, your feelings will find an outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Such as?
I just gave you two. Do you really think that cookies were the only possible gifts that Ranka could have given Alto?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And I don't see why it's bad that she asked for advice. Part of "trying hard" is "not picking whatever is easy and saying 'whatever', it's not like it's supposed to be a big challenge". Maybe Ranka tries too hard. One could certainly argue for the value of something store-bought, made by a skilled artisan, vs the more personal but potentially shoddy homemade stuff. But IMO, it's more endearing than not trying hard enough.
It takes effort to earn the money to buy a gift from a store, you know. Gifts aren't about effort; they're about the feelings that you communicate. A gift from a store can be very personal if it conveys a message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What independence? She heard, probably from Nanase, Alto's birthday was coming up, and decided to do something about it. Did we see her get browbeaten into it? Did we see it took an enormous amount of effort to convince her? Yes, Nanase was involved. Mostly because she likes being involved in Ranka's life. So what?
The point that I was making was that had we seen a stage in the affair in which Nanase wasn't involved, then we could all step back and say "Aha! She definitely did that part on her own." But right now, we can't separate what Ranka actually did on her own from what Nanase pushed her to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not really. Sheryl acts like it's a privilege to help her, and admits she doesn't thank people often. She isn't precisely ungrateful, but it certainly embarrasses her to say "thank you", so she avoids doing it.
Well, if Sheryl admits to not thanking people often, then it follows that she can admit to her faults.

Sheryl usually tends to be in a position where she's helping others, rather than being helped. So the issue of gratefulness hasn't really been addressed that much. But she definitely finds ways to show that she cares very much about the people around her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
We've also seen her relationship with Alto go to the point where she wanted to do something nice and personal for him. Even if her efforts failed. And yes, she didn't precisely do it on her own, but I don't see why she should have.
Ranka didn't have to do it on her own, but she could just have easily done so. As such, it's an example of her dependence. Not that being dependent is necessarily a bad thing, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, I think it doesn't fall under it. Considering Ickem's use of the word "all", he may disagree.
He may, or he may not. But there's no point in attacking an argument that wasn't raised in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
There are also some objective criteria. For example, Ranka didn't poison Sheryl. Any statement to the contrary would be "unfair". If you don't like a character, you tend to see the worst in them, and deny their good sides. (And conversely, if you like them, you'll see the best and deny the bad.) You can either let that impulse rule you, or you can try to be... "fair". Disliking Ranka for her dog-ears like hair and fangs? Fair, she really has those. Disliking her because - and claiming that - she spends all her screentime crying for Alto when she should be solving her problems on her own? Unfair. Not only does she do more than crying, but when she does, it generally involves some big, dangerous creature she can do little about.
Even though you use these labels "fair" and "unfair", there are actually a whole spectrum of choices that lie between the two. At what point am I actually allowing my impulses to rule me? Who gets to decide that?

You've given a number of statements, and given your judgements about whether you think that those statements are "fair" or "unfair". That only tells me something about your system of values. I can't "objectively" call you "unfair" if you happen to violate my system of values in the process. I can do so "subjectively", but that's another story.
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Last edited by Swampstorm; 2008-07-05 at 21:57.
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Old 2008-07-05, 22:06   Link #348
CrowKenobi
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Originally Posted by Eurys View Post
This last episode supports that argument too. I'm talking about the moment when Alto says to Ranka it's ok to not remember one's past if it's painful, once again shielding her from "harm"... Obviously, it's similar to running away and you just know at one point that Ranka will have to find the strength to face those painful memories (and they don't seem to be all painful though).
Alto disappointed me a bit there Or course it was not the moment to play psy with Ranka, but to say she should not remember her past...
I'm thinking that Alto was speaking from personal experience there.

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Old 2008-07-05, 22:17   Link #349
Eurys
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
I'm thinking that Alto was speaking from personal experience there.

Sure, but is he right about that? Probably not, and even Michel keeps reminding him how he's running away

Spoiler for spoiling that even if there's no need to:
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Old 2008-07-06, 04:11   Link #350
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Her interest isn't academic. When Nanase hears that Ranka hasn't sent Alto the invitation yet, Nanase starts telling Ranka about how worried she is about Sheryl and Alto getting together.
Yes, and? She's worried Ranka will lose the love triangle. It says more about Nanase than it does about Ranka.


Quote:
That's an example of Ranka depending on Nanase to solve a problem that she should be able to overcome on her own.
Ranka didn't depend on Nanase, Nanase gave her an additional push. That's not the same.

Quote:
That's why you should always read through a recipe completely before you even start to look for ingredients. The same is true if you hear a recipe through word of mouth. You don't want to be asking questions on the phone when you've got a pot bubbling away on the stove and a steak on the grill.

That being said, cookies aren't supposed to be all that complicated in the first place. If she found a recipe that was too difficult, then it would be an easy enough matter to find another one that matched her own skill level.

For one thing, cookies are popular with kids. I'm fairly certain that there'd be at least one book out there written with a young audience in mind. Such a recipe should be easy enough to follow. If she can't do that, either, then she'd be better off finding something else that is better suited to her strengths.
OK, so she could have opened a cookbook. Again, what are the merits of that compared to asking a human being?

Quote:
The same way plane shaped cookies do. You're still working with dough, so you'd need is some sort of template to get the dough into the proper shape.
No, I meant, how do you do that and not end up with something disgusting?

Quote:
I knew that she was a good cook from reading her blog. But I'm just showing you that other possibilities exist.

You don't have to be a pro in the music industry to write a love song, or any song for that matter. There's nothing pretentious about it at all.
At this point in her career, it is. If she was just a gifted amateur, that'd be fine. If she was an established pro, it'd be fine.

Quote:
But even just take singing, for example. Ranka could find a song that expressed her thoughts and feelings about Alto, and sing it to him. Doing it in a very public place could even add in an element of playful humor, if that's her style (and she can certainly pull it off, now that she's not shy about singing in public anymore).
It would also put Alto on the spot. He wouldn't appreciate it.

Quote:
If she tried contacting Alto early on and found that she couldn't get through, she could run a quick test to see how long of a message she could leave in his answering machine, and leave him a song there. There's often a solution to be had, if you're just willing to problem solve.
Only if the sound quality of phone conversations and answering machines is better than what it is today!


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The point is to have fun with the whole process, rather than making it into some sort of ordeal.
And apparently, the point is also to exclude your friend, who's been having fun trying to play cupid, from the process.

Quote:
You're absolutely right. That's why I thought that Miss Fenette was very cute when she delivered those lines.


It's not even an issue of being especially creative or clever. If you love someone, your feelings will find an outlet.
And they did. I don't see why she should have sat in isolation trying to find one, though, instead of bouncing ideas off her friend.

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I just gave you two. Do you really think that cookies were the only possible gifts that Ranka could have given Alto?
No, but I think your ideas suck. (Of course, so did Ranka's cookies. Sometimes you just can't win.)

Quote:
It takes effort to earn the money to buy a gift from a store, you know. Gifts aren't about effort; they're about the feelings that you communicate. A gift from a store can be very personal if it conveys a message.
An expensive gift would have been improper at this stage of the relationship. And she didn't have time to go shopping for just the right gift.

Quote:
The point that I was making was that had we seen a stage in the affair in which Nanase wasn't involved, then we could all step back and say "Aha! She definitely did that part on her own." But right now, we can't separate what Ranka actually did on her own from what Nanase pushed her to do.

Well, if Sheryl admits to not thanking people often, then it follows that she can admit to her faults.
Once. And to make Alto feel privileged to have helped her.

Quote:
Sheryl usually tends to be in a position where she's helping others, rather than being helped. So the issue of gratefulness hasn't really been addressed that much. But she definitely finds ways to show that she cares very much about the people around her.

Ranka didn't have to do it on her own, but she could just have easily done so. As such, it's an example of her dependence. Not that being dependent is necessarily a bad thing, of course.
Dependence is being unable to act on her own. As it is, she's merely not being an idiot. She has a friend who'd love to help her, and calls on her to tell her so. So she doesn't push her away.

Quote:
He may, or he may not. But there's no point in attacking an argument that wasn't raised in the first place.
But the argument was raised. The only question is whether he intended to do so. So, yeah, there is a call to attack it.

Quote:
Even though you use these labels "fair" and "unfair", there are actually a whole spectrum of choices that lie between the two. At what point am I actually allowing my impulses to rule me? Who gets to decide that?

You've given a number of statements, and given your judgements about whether you think that those statements are "fair" or "unfair". That only tells me something about your system of values. I can't "objectively" call you "unfair" if you happen to violate my system of values in the process. I can do so "subjectively", but that's another story.
Fine. How about you replace "unfair" by "factually untrue"? If you want to base your posts on some imagined flaws rather than real ones, not much I can do about it... but I still think it's a good idea to call you on it.
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Old 2008-07-06, 04:20   Link #351
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
I'm thinking that Alto was speaking from personal experience there.

Hate to bring up an earlier episode. Remember episode 3, when Alto is talking to Ozma in the hospital, and finds out about Ranka's real family? What did he tell Ranka's 'adopted' brother? He'd want to know the truth. He wouldn't want to have to rely on anyone.

He maybe speaking from personal experience, but he's not being honest. He's coddling Ranka, but it's not what he thinks is best.

He's much more himself with Sheryl for this reason alone. When it comes to Ranka, he lies to himself, and to her quite frequently. Ranka's going to have to grow up someday...
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Old 2008-07-06, 07:06   Link #352
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Allow me to quote what I was answering to:

When's the last time she's cried for Alto to rescue her? Gallia 4, when she was prisoner of the giant bugs. The time before that? When she was taken prisoner by said giant bugs. The time before that? When she was attacked by an hydra. So, which of those situation should she have "been able to handle by herself"? Also, it's not all we've seen from her. We've also seen her career progress and her confidence grow, from "I don't know if I can play Mayan Girl B" to "I'll play Mao" to "Listen to me, Zentran lolicon, and stop fighting!". He was denying that. We've also seen her relationship with Alto go to the point where she wanted to do something nice and personal for him. Even if her efforts failed. And yes, she didn't precisely do it on her own, but I don't see why she should have.
In EP13 15:02, Alto told Ranka to stay put or don't move from her present location i.e. on the centre platform.
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Old 2008-07-06, 11:44   Link #353
ickem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Allow me to quote what I was answering to:

When's the last time she's cried for Alto to rescue her? Gallia 4, when she was prisoner of the giant bugs. The time before that? When she was taken prisoner by said giant bugs. The time before that? When she was attacked by an hydra. So, which of those situation should she have "been able to handle by herself"? Also, it's not all we've seen from her. We've also seen her career progress and her confidence grow, from "I don't know if I can play Mayan Girl B" to "I'll play Mao" to "Listen to me, Zentran lolicon, and stop fighting!". He was denying that. We've also seen her relationship with Alto go to the point where she wanted to do something nice and personal for him. Even if her efforts failed. And yes, she didn't precisely do it on her own, but I don't see why she should have.


No, I think it doesn't fall under it. Considering Ickem's use of the word "all", he may disagree.



There are also some objective criteria. For example, Ranka didn't poison Sheryl. Any statement to the contrary would be "unfair". If you don't like a character, you tend to see the worst in them, and deny their good sides. (And conversely, if you like them, you'll see the best and deny the bad.) You can either let that impulse rule you, or you can try to be... "fair". Disliking Ranka for her dog-ears like hair and fangs? Fair, she really has those. Disliking her because - and claiming that - she spends all her screentime crying for Alto when she should be solving her problems on her own? Unfair. Not only does she do more than crying, but when she does, it generally involves some big, dangerous creature she can do little about.
I could have phrased the post a little better, but I'll just claim that it was the late hour that led to it...Ok "All she seems to be doing is to keep running to Alto whenever things don't go her way."

Anyways, by crying I was referring to how she almost always tries to seek out Alto to prop herself up when she is confronted by things that she doesn't like within her own life. I guess I should have mentioned that I don't really fault her in life or death situations, but these are supplementary to her seeking "easy" support in the form of Alto. As Michel said, she wanted to find Alto to act as her personal diary instead of dealing with Ozma's objections to her being a singer. In and of themselves I do not find them that disagreeable, but because they seem to emphasis the damsel in distress role that she takes in other aspects of the show, they do tend to lower her in my eyes. It just seems that her entire interaction with Alto is still based on that first encounter in episode 1 in which he "saved" her. She also seems to get closer to him because she thinks that he saved her again in episode 10. Again I am not faulting her for needing to be saved from the hydra, but her reaction to the belief that she was saved is what I don't like. She seems to be trying to build a relationship that is predicated on Alto being only a safety net for her.

I do admit that I may be being a little unfair to her in some cases because of her character design, though. It's a little hard not to see her as a character to always need saving when she is a moe-loli amalgam designed to evoke feelings of protectiveness in viewers. As much as I despised TV Minmei, I sometimes long for her return because she was at least neither moe nor loli. Damn you, Evolving Trends!
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:06   Link #354
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Originally Posted by Eurys View Post
Spoiler for spoiling that even if there's no need to:
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:27   Link #355
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I never said Ranka was actually running away, but she will be if she listens to Alto's advice (Alto, the one running away from his past, you know?) and never tries to remember her own past when the possibility is there (like it occured in the last episode but it wasn't the right moment).
Spoiler for speculation:
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:30   Link #356
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Spoiler:
Ranka is a sympathetic little thing. It's nothing wrong to be one, but not anybody wants to see a sympathetic little thing in every episode.

By the way, she is not sole survivor. If she is, that is a possibility she has murdered her family along with rest on that ill-fated ship because they don't buy her favourite cake.
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:40   Link #357
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...And im guessing Sheryl is an over confident....Proud Bi!ch
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:47   Link #358
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If you want to think that way, go ahead. I don't like to see it, but it's in your right. Especially it's a opinion, not an argument, I see no way I can argue back.
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Old 2008-07-06, 22:51   Link #359
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...And im guessing Sheryl is an over confident....Proud Bi!ch
Give me over confident proud b**ch anytime over moe/loli! Just as long as they aren't the REALLY loud, screamy over confident types...
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Old 2008-07-06, 23:11   Link #360
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Oh, I forgot the famous line from Westlo: "you make me glad that I'm a Sheryl fan."
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