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Old 2008-12-19, 21:42   Link #941
vision33r
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Vision your comparisons here are the equivalent to a Kobe fan listing 20 things Kobe Byrant can do and than saying Lebron can only drive to the basket, it's biased. Please don't play the I'm making a fair comparison card because nothing could be further from the truth.
What you said has no relevance to my point. You're assuming that my arguments are just biased critiques that you disagree with. That's your opinion.
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Old 2008-12-19, 21:45   Link #942
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No it's relevant because like them you're ignoring things the other player/girl did while trying to list as much as possible for your fav. You're not a unique snowflake, I've seen your kind in nearly every fandom for various things. "Oh oh in ep 1 ranka did this and in ep 2 she did this and in ep blah blah blah, btw Sheryl just lost her career that's it" Yeah brilliant analysis skills genius.

Also if Sheryl and Alto had no chemistry than why do so many people like the pairing because of their chemistry? Why did Kawamori say that SxA chemistry was much better than RxA? Are we and Kawamori just morons compared to your brilliant analytical mind? Never mind that I find it hilarious someone thinks their an expert on character development because they do Employee Reviews Next time before you state your "credentials" at least make sure what you say isn't laughable in the first place.
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Old 2008-12-19, 21:53   Link #943
vivitoru
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
I don't think you actually watched Macross Frontier, you're just an anime "viewer."

There's a big difference between watching and viewing..
Just as you said there's a big difference between watching and viewing.

Well you're at a different analytical level than most Macross fans afterall.
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Old 2008-12-19, 22:14   Link #944
vision33r
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Also if Sheryl and Alto had no chemistry than why do so many people like the pairing because of their chemistry? Why did Kawamori say that SxA chemistry was much better than RxA? Are we and Kawamori just morons compared to your brilliant analytical mind? Never mind that I find it hilarious someone thinks their an expert on character development because they do Employee Reviews Next time before you state your "credentials" at least make sure what you say isn't laughable in the first place.
Because Kawamori says to pair them.. Plain and simple. Bad script is bad script.

Sheryl & Altoh had zero chemistry.

Altoh is a young boy while Sheryl needs someone who understand her feelings.

It's nice to see in many threads that your resort to personal attacks as a way to disagree with others.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:01   Link #945
BetoJR
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Hmmm... Let's see what's wrong with some of these statements, shall we?

Ranka grew because she went from a waitress to a songstress. Someone important. Equal or bigger than that has-been, Sheryl.
ORLY? That's a point for character development and growth, now? The situations that are thrown in the character's face? That's way too flimsy, at best. She was essentially the same at the beginning and at the end of the series. A shy, bubbling young girl who didn't look her age and acted impulsively. There was material for growth there, specially after episode 21, but it was wasted - and reverted to the previous state in the last episode. GOD, she issued a challenge to Sheryl, like she was her rival in love and song! How's that for immature?
Whereas regarding Sheryl, I don't think even someone like you can claim she was the same in episode 25 as she was in the first one.

Ranka grew because she "confessed" her love for Alto.
Oh, come on. "I loved you"? When she's abandoning the fleet to fend for itself? That's your big character growth? I'd put more validity in her actually making the decision to leave (however misguided that may have been) than on that ridiculous display of immaturity. And, oh, surprise, surprise, it was completely ignored later on.

Sheryl and Alto have no chemistry.
Did you watch "Star Date" and episodes 22,23 and 24? Or did you simply "view" them? Maybe you're just "at a different analytical level than most Macross fans", then? What hokey kind of statement is that?
Sheryl and Alto had more chemistry together in those four episodes than most romantic comedies/dramas main characters throughout whole series. I mean, c'mon... that's pretty obvious.

And, honestly vision33r, don't start your participation in a thread with nonsense like "I write employee reviews at work, since I am a manager". Nobody cares about that, we care about your exhibited ability to formulate a point. Do not spew your personal opinion as fact and expect everyone to swallow it.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:07   Link #946
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Saying something has better chemistry is not the same as saying he likes that pairing better. And it's from an interview Tak read, bug his VM box and get it off him!
Ok lol excuse my choice of words, he still never said that he liked their chemistry more. All Kawamori said was "A lot of people seemed to like the scene between Alto and Sheryl and if I might say so myself, so did I" (not exactly the same but it was close to that.) I saw the translation from someone else that doesn't come to this forum, whom I don't know.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:17   Link #947
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Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Because Kawamori says to pair them.. Plain and simple. Bad script is bad script.

Sheryl & Altoh had zero chemistry.
I'll agree that MF's script could have handled certain key elements better, but I won't say it's particularly bad. I've seen much, much worse. Scripts change all the time during production, and a director has to go with what's working. Maybe it didn't work for you, but it's never going to work on 100% of the audience, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. It did, however work with a large enough part of the audience to warrant a drastic change in scripting and characterization, and the money says it panned out pretty good for the producers.

In the interest of staying civil, how do you define "chemistry?" I define on-screen chemistry as two characters provoking reactions out of each other that simultaneously draw them out of their comfort zones and expose their vulnerabilities to one another. That was something I rarely saw in Alto and Ranka.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:31   Link #948
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
ORLY? That's a point for character development and growth, now? The situations that are thrown in the character's face? That's way too flimsy, at best. She was essentially the same at the beginning and at the end of the series. A shy, bubbling young girl who didn't look her age and acted impulsively. There was material for growth there, specially after episode 21, but it was wasted - and reverted to the previous state in the last episode. GOD, she issued a challenge to Sheryl, like she was her rival in love and song! How's that for immature?
Whereas regarding Sheryl, I don't think even someone like you can claim she was the same in episode 25 as she was in the first one.
It's not necessarily the situations thrown at her face that made her grow but the decision Ranka herself made. I disagree that she is essentially the same because she really isn't. Her being shy and clumsy is part of her personality and even being impulsive is just how she is, but where she grew was in her charisma and confidence because she had neither in the beginning. Although I agree that there was still potential left for her to grow, but you can't claim that she didn't "essentially grow."

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Oh, come on. "I loved you"? When she's abandoning the fleet to fend for itself? That's your big character growth? I'd put more validity in her actually making the decision to leave (however misguided that may have been) than on that ridiculous display of immaturity. And, oh, surprise, surprise, it was completely ignored later on.
Misguided and immature? How can you possibly call that misguided and immature when you know just as well that her songs made the Vajra angry instead of calm. She left with the intentions to stop the fighting and bring Ai-kun back to his planet, as well as learn more about her past that she had no memory of. I completely disagree with those actions being "misguided and immature." She didn't abandon the fleet, she went to do the right thing by helping to end the chaos.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:47   Link #949
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And how the heck did she know she'd be able to end anything - except her and Brera's lives? Which is basically what would have happened if Grace hadn't been stopped in the end? Like I said, immature and misguided - even if, in the end, everything turned out alright.

Her charisma, at least to this viewer, actually diminished as the series went on. And I'm not alone in that view, if I may say so myself.

And, yes, I can claim she didn't grow a bit, from what was shown to us both in the first episode and the last. There is no visible difference, other than her blurted out challenge at the end. Not really. Some people referred to the last episode as a reset, and in a way, it actually was, regarding Ranka. She reverted to the "too-pure-pure-girl" from the beginning, as opposed to the growing teenager she was shown to be from episode 21 up.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:50   Link #950
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Misguided and immature? How can you possibly call that misguided and immature when you know just as well that her songs made the Vajra angry instead of calm. She left with the intentions to stop the fighting and bring Ai-kun back to his planet, as well as learn more about her past that she had no memory of. I completely disagree with those actions being "misguided and immature." She didn't abandon the fleet, she went to do the right thing by helping to end the chaos.
It's misguided in the sense she doesn't seem to see the kind of repercussions that would come out of her leaving all of a sudden. She's the songstress of the people, a role she fully embraces mainly in order to reach Alto. And in the time of their need, she leaves.

I don't think it's the right thing to do despite the purity of her intentions due to their predicament. She doesn't even learn anything truly significant until Grace finally captures her. That's a wasted opportunity for character growth right there.

Like I said before, the problem with Ranka has also to do with what the story spoon feeds to her. She's "protected" from all manner of culpability of her actions and vindicates her by showing that the moral of the story is on her side all along.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:53   Link #951
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And how the heck did she know she'd be able to end anything - except her and Brera's lives? Which is basically what would have happened if Grace hadn't been stopped in the end? Like I said, immature and misguided, even if, in the end everything turned out alright.

Her charisma, at least to this viewer, actually diminished as the series went on. And I'm not alone in that view, if I may say so myself.

And, yes, I can claim she didn't grow a bit, from what was shown to us both in the first episode and the last. There is no visible difference, other than her blurted out challenge at the end. Not really. Some people referred to the last episode as a reset, and in a way, it actually was, regarding Ranka. She reverted to the "too-pure-pure-girl" from the beginning, as opposed to the growing teenager she was shown to be from episode 21 up.
Claim it all you want but I'm just pointing out that it is your opinion and even if it is the opinion of others, there are people like me that disagree. And how do you know that things would have ended up good if she had stayed to help fend off the Vajra? There is no difference in what you said to begin with so it all comes down to how it ended, in which it ended just fine (except the romance of course.)

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It's misguided in the sense she doesn't seem to see the kind of repercussions that would come out of her leaving all of a sudden. She's the songstress of the people, a role she fully embraces mainly in order to reach Alto. And in the time of their need, she leaves.

I don't think it's the right thing to do despite the purity of her intentions due to their predicament. She doesn't even learn anything truly significant until Grace finally captures her. That's a wasted opportunity for character growth right there.

Like I said before, the problem with Ranka has also to do with what the story spoon feeds to her. She's "protected" from all manner of culpability of her actions and vindicates her by showing that the moral of the story is on her side all along.
I can see where you're coming from but again I still believe that it was the right thing, but it's my opinion of course. Even if she had stayed I don't see how it would have helped, if only to ease the tension within the city. The chaos would have broken out again once the Vajra had shown up and it also would have fell right into the lap of Graces plan. The wasted opportunity was done in order to create time for Sheryl and her character growth which worked against Ranka's growth which is a shame to be honest. She isn't protected from the blame, at least that's not what I think. There nothing to blame on Ranka, she was a victim of the plans that Grace had for her. If there is something to blame her for, then I would like to know.

Last edited by DeX-kun; 2008-12-20 at 00:08.
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Old 2008-12-19, 23:55   Link #952
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The thing I take most issue with is exactly that: Ranka doesn't feel any weight from the happenings brought about by her (in)action(s). If anything, she, as a person, should feel some remorse over all the death she (however unwillingly or unintentionally) helped bring about. Yet, her "purity" seems to overshadow that need. Wasted potential, right there...

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Claim it all you want but I'm just pointing out that it is your opinion and even if it is the opinion of others, there are people like me that disagree.
Yeah, so? Am I forbidding you to have an opinion? Forgive me if I don't share yours and give my reasons as to why.

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
And how do you know that things would have ended up good if she had stayed to help fend off the Vajra? There is no difference in what you said to begin with so it all comes down to how it ended, in which it ended just fine (except the romance of course.)
And that, my friends, is exactly what poor writing is. Everything ended just fine because the writers wanted it to, not because it would have been the most believable or sensible outcome. I mean, c'mon, if Grace had a little more time to use Ranka's empathy and interface with the Vajra queen, she could have disposed of both Ranka and Brera and then Sheryl would die alone (not being able to help save Ranka, first) and all of Frontier would perish at the talons of the bugs. Did you ever think of that?
I mean, your reasoning seems a bit off, bub...
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Old 2008-12-20, 00:18   Link #953
DeX-kun
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The thing I take most issue with is exactly that: Ranka doesn't feel any weight from the happenings brought about by her (in)action(s). If anything, she, as a person, should feel some remorse over all the death she (however unwillingly or unintentionally) helped bring about. Yet, her "purity" seems to overshadow that need. Wasted potential, right there...
Well now I remember quite clearly that Ranka felt plenty of remorse once she found out that her singing was bringing the Vajra to the colony and brought about the chaos, and then Grace began to use that as an advantage to manipulate her.

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Yeah, so? Am I forbidding you to have an opinion? Forgive me if I don't share yours and give my reasons as to why.
No you're not forbidding me to have an opinion but you seem to be stating a lot of opinions as facts.

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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And that, my friends, is exactly what poor writing is. Everything ended just fine because the writers wanted it to, not because it would have been the most believable or sensible outcome. I mean, c'mon, if Grace had a little more time to use Ranka's empathy and interface with the Vajra queen, she could have disposed of both Ranka and Brera and then Sheryl would die alone (not being able to help save Ranka, first) and all of Frontier would perish at the talons of the bugs. Did you ever think of that?
I mean, your reasoning seems a bit off, bub...
Again, this is your version of "believable and sensible." What the writers see as believable and sensible could be completely different to what you see. As for my reasoning, it's not off, it's just that you don't agree with it.
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Old 2008-12-20, 00:38   Link #954
kujoe
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The wasted opportunity was done in order to create time for Sheryl and her character growth which worked against Ranka's growth which is a shame to be honest. She isn't protected from the blame, at least that's not what I think. There nothing to blame on Ranka, she was a victim of the plans that Grace had for her. If there is something to blame her for, then I would like to know.
While Sheryl is easily compared to Ranka and vice-versa, Sheryl's growth isn't playing against Ranka's whatsoever. Why should it be? If you're going to be merely talking about screen time, that's one thing, but it's actually Ranka who has the lion's share of focus in the series. They're two, separate characters walking diverging paths and making their own decisions. She actually leaves Alto in order to find answers for herself. Sheryl has nothing to do with that decision at all when she herself is facing problems of her own.

The thought that Sheryl's development as a character conflicts with Ranka is absurd.

She is a victim, and that's the problem. She stays that way with the story refusing to give her the chance to face the weight of her actions fully. Her song has a terrible and wondrous power, and it's a fact that it has something to do with the destruction of her home in the past. It has also caused the deaths of many after her concert.

While the results are tragic and unfortunate, it's also true that she genuinely tries and I agree that you can't truly blame her for that. But this doesn't really excuse her from facing that reality properly. With everything that has happened to her, you can't just sum that up with "Ranka didn't betray humanity after all." (an actual quote) and call it a day. And it is in this area where the story and her character is lacking. The moral of the story saves her.
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Old 2008-12-20, 00:41   Link #955
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Well now I remember quite clearly that Ranka felt plenty of remorse once she found out that her singing was bringing the Vajra to the colony and brought about the chaos, and then Grace began to use that as an advantage to manipulate her.
Yeah, a scene that went on for all of ten~fifteen seconds and then was never referred to again. Great job on assuming responsibilities, Ranka.

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No you're not forbidding me to have an opinion but you seem to be stating a lot of opinions as facts.
I am? Where have I ever stated something as a fact, and not my own personal opinion? Just because I give my reasons as to why I have an opinion about a certain subject doesn't immediately actualize said opinion as fact. And, honestly, we'll all be going in circles if all you can do is attack my points with "that's your opinion, and I could care less" or some such. Don't fault me for preferring my opinion over yours, if that's all you're gonna argue with.

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Again, this is your version of "believable and sensible." What the writers see as believable and sensible could be completely different to what you see. As for my reasoning, it's not off, it's just that you don't agree with it.
And that's why I said it's poor writing. To me, it is. If you thought that ending resolution - at least plot-wise - was a thing of beauty, more power to you. On that, we'll have to agree to disagree, then.

I thought the last episode was rushed as concerns the main resolution of the story and the consequences of certain actions and future possibilities opened by the fleet finding a new planet to colonize. But the mecha-pr0n and the songs more than made up for it over my repeat viewings. Doesn't change the fact that there was some very poor writing done, there, that I wished would have been handled better. But that's already straying off-topic for this thread.

@kujoe: Couldn't agree more. "The moral of the story saves her". And that's poor, lazy writing, right there.
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Old 2008-12-20, 00:51   Link #956
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I actually don't get why most people sugarcoat Ranka's actions and then using the "well you know, she is still 16, you can't blame her for blah blah this and that" card. Regardless of age, she can make her own decisions. Its all about thinking through them. Especially BIG decisions. Like...let's say, leaving Frontier for Vajra-land. Unfortunately, Ranka exercised little thinking in that. =_=
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Old 2008-12-20, 00:57   Link #957
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Wow Ranka really is a very important person in this forum...all that heat-debate is still continuing...

Well basically Ranka feels something needs to be done, and because only she can communicate somehow, she chooses to run to Vajra planet to investigate...and she does feel sad when she remember the tragedy when she was young, and then she got controlled.

And I guess here is the issue, after she gets free from Grace's control, she CHOOSES the right thing to do, which is to help Macross Frontier IMMEDIATELY. I don't know whether she remembers anything during the period she got controlled. But even if she did, she understands the most important thing is to save Frontier, and she does it right. It was not the right time for feeling sad, or self-blaming. She acts immediately, which could be a sign that she got more matured or she lets the past tragedy go and decides to move forward.

I guess ppl have a problem of seeing Ranka decides to let the past go and move forward so easily without suffering XD. But I guess Ranka knows, after this series, that it's important to save ppl now and let the past goes. She changes and decides to move forward, while some audiences want to see her suffer then allow her to move forward XD
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Old 2008-12-20, 01:00   Link #958
DeX-kun
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While Sheryl is easily compared to Ranka and vice-versa, Sheryl's growth isn't playing against Ranka's whatsoever. Why should it be? If you're going to be merely talking about screen time, that's one thing, and it's actually Ranka who has the lion's share of focus in the series. They're two, separate characters walking diverging paths and making their own decisions. She actually leaves Alto in order to find answers for herself. Sheryl has nothing to do with that decision at all when she herself is facing problems of her own.

The thought that Sheryl's development as a character conflicts with Ranka is absurd.
The reason I say it does interfere is for the fact that most people seem to have a problem with that part of the series the most, all the focus seems to be there instead of what happened before. Now before she left, Ranka had been working on establishing her singing career which was going well until they found that her singing in a sense, tamed the Vajra. Although Ranka did have most of the screen time, the only thing developing before she left was her career and not exactly her character which also worked against her because she was leaving after that.

Her character required a lot of time and it just didn't work out. I was talking about the screen time by the way.

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She is a victim, and that's the problem. She stays that way with the story refusing to give her the chance to face the weight of her actions fully. Her song has a terrible and wondrous power, and it's a fact that it has something to do with the destruction of her home in the past. It has also caused the deaths of many after her concert.

While the results are tragic and unfortunate, it's also true that she genuinely tries and I agree that you can't truly blame her for that. But this doesn't really excuse her from facing that reality properly. With everything that has happened to her, you can't just sum that up with "Ranka didn't betray humanity after all." (an actual quote) and call it a day. And it is in this area where the story and her character is lacking. The moral of the story saves her.
I see what you mean now, this is what they failed to do with her character and the major flaw that Kawamori left to her. She never faced her actions fully and it's the only thing that I didn't quite enjoy but it still doesn't make her a bad character, just wasted potential. (I've seen much worse and I know you didn't say she was a bad character lol) You've made your point and I pretty much agree with you on this.


Alright guys, it's been fun discussing/arguing with some of you lol but I'll be working tomorrow and heading to bed in a little. Good night everyone and have fun
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Old 2008-12-20, 01:52   Link #959
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Well I would have to disagree with you on the statement where Ranka didn't change. She did change, to what extent I'm not quite sure myself because from what I see she went from a naive 16 year old girl to a more self confident and decisive character. While I still think she has her flaws, I wouldn't say that she didn't develop at all because that's not true. As for her decision, she did make decisions on her own because although other people might support you and say things to help you, they can't actually force you to do it. Ranka made all the decisions herself, nobody forced her to join the Miss Macross pageant and nobody forced her to go to outer space to look for the Vajra home planet to leave Ai-kun and stop the fighting between the Vajra and humanity.

I do agree that she did want to become a star from the beginning and she still does but I don't think it is her priority like it was before, imo. As for Sherly being selfish, I agree that she was selfish to some extent but to call her shallow is taking it too far.
Ranka was very reliant on other characters through out the entire series to make decisions for her. She lacked the ability to speak up when she needed to the most. For instance when Grace changed the arrangement of Aimo, even though she didn't like the new arrangement she never brought it up with Grace and instead just followed the flow. It was the same with her deciding to become the hope for frontier even though she herself did not like the idea of it, the minute Alto gave the okay she jumped on his decision without a second thought. Then the minute times got hard she broke down. Then instead of taking up her responsibility like a mature, and responsible person would she instead abandoned Frontier in order to "Bring Ai-kun back home", never mind that Frontier would be left defenseless in the wake of her actions. Not only that but she also selfishly asks Alto to come along with her. A truly mature person wouldn't even think of doing this, at the end of the series Ranka is still very much an immature 16 year old. The problem with Ranka's "decisions" are that they are not only that they are influenced by other people but the fact that she had doubts about all the bad decisions she has made during the series, prior to making them. However, the minute someone says differently she abandons all of her doubts and follows their advice. She spent the entire series coddled by the rest of the cast, and while you can say that everything ended up alright it doesn't change the journey to the end. And judging by her journey Ranka is still very much a child, as she hasn't behaved in a anyway to make us believe differently.

While she wanted to become a star herself, Ranka was very irresponsible once she attained that stardom (ditching a parade held in her honor to find her pet, refusing to sing during the funeral, completely abandoning her duties).

Also don't try to sugarcoat Ranka's actions with the she's just sixteen crud, Alto is seventeen, Sheryl is seventeen, as is Michael, and Luka, Kira, Cagalli, Athrun and Lacus were all sixteen, Minmei was sixteen, as was Hikaru, Maylin was fourteen (younger than Ranka *gasp*), GWing guys and Relena were all fifteen bottom line is Ranka's age is not excuse for her actions. She was spoiled and selfish not through her words but through her actions. In fact I highly doubt she has ever once factored Alto's emotions into the equation, of her schoolgirl crush. Bottom line is her development was lacking there's no way to get around that without completely ignoring 95% of the series like vission33r did.

Last edited by wisteria233; 2008-12-20 at 02:07.
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Old 2008-12-20, 05:05   Link #960
magnuskn
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Altoh's romance with Sheryl is at best, platonic, hardly even close to Basara + Mylene which is a one sided relationship but atleast there are some moments..
Wow, what a way to simply dismiss the mayor romance of the series. Why do you think 76% voted for Sheryl X Alto in the Romance thread poll (34% more than the next pairing, which was Cathy X Ozma, btw. Alto X Ranka has a 51% difference to Sheryl X Alto. ) ? Because there wasn´t a real romance?

Alto has problems throughout the entire show to demonstrate his feelings, besides getting angry. But they managed to show that he truly cares for Sheryl, and yes, definitely loves her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
I don't think you actually watched Macross Frontier, you're just an anime "viewer."

There's a big difference between watching and viewing..
And you are obviously too arrogant, if you dismiss Raile so blithely. Raile has been here for months, and given us just as good analysis of the characters and the show than others of our best members. Where have you been, but turning up for the last days to espout an opinion which a mayorite of the posters here disagree with, and about which we already argued for several months? Stating that you have some mythical higher threshhold of analysis is laughable. We have people here who are able to dissect scenes and episodes painstakingly, unlike you, who has so far only thrown out blanket statements.
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