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Old 2009-01-09, 10:51   Link #1161
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post

I really don't remember any hint of it previously... but, I may be misremembering.
If you remember the scene where she was "rescued" by Brera, then you'll have a scene where she cried.
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Old 2009-01-09, 10:57   Link #1162
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Crying and feeling the glowing bugs reacting to their brethren dying are two very different things.
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Old 2009-01-09, 11:07   Link #1163
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she cried because she felt them dying... just rewatch it yourself. I'm now too lazy to tell every single fps of the episode and also I'm still in the office booking some crap invoices :P
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:00   Link #1164
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If I understand correctly, the government of Frontier issued a public statement back in episode eleven stating that the V-virus outbreak in the hydra population wouldn't be a concern for humans, due to the transmission requirements of the infection. In addition, during the conversation with Leon in episode twenty-two, it's stated that the infection rate is very low and is easily treated in its early stages. Leon didn't strike me as particularily brave; if Sheryl posed a threat of infection, I doubt that he would have discussed the medical report in person (and the doctors would have also quarantined her, at that).

That aside, I wouldn't say that the outcome of Ranka's actions prevent me from appreciating her character. The problem, I think, has more to do with how her motivation is presented. While she aligns herself with the Vajra in the last few episodes, it's unclear as to exactly why she believes that they're worth protecting. It's much harder to cheer a character on without getting a sense of what specifically drives them. This is more of a time constraint issue, of course, but Alto and Sheryl both had moments which very clearly defined their motivation (episodes twenty-three and twenty, respectively).
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:01   Link #1165
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
this is refering to magnuskn's post:

How can Sheryl assume doctor could not detect the disease....Grace just told Sheryl she has it...I probably need to rewatch and see if Grace told her the blood sample was switched...anyway, the thing is, when an evil guy tells you that you are doomed, won't you just go and check it again when you are right in the hospital??

Well I see ppl are going with different topic now, I can move on XD
Because she just spent *weeks* in that same hospital and didnīt get a diagnosis of any disease. Hello?

In any case, further responses in the Sheryl thread, please.
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:11   Link #1166
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
If I understand correctly, the government of Frontier issued a public statement back in episode eleven stating that the V-virus outbreak in the hydra population wouldn't be a concern for humans, due to the transmission requirements of the infection. In addition, during the conversation with Leon in episode twenty-two, it's stated that the infection rate is very low and is easily treated in its early stages. Leon didn't strike me as particularily brave; if Sheryl posed a threat of infection, I doubt that he would have discussed the medical report in person (and the doctors would have also quarantined her, at that).
That is what the Government wants to let the people hear. That's called Press release information. This does not mean that he tells the full truth of the V-Type virus. In worse case he was not informed by Leon about the true nature of the virus.
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:19   Link #1167
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
That is what the Government wants to let the people hear. That's called Press release information. This does not mean that he tells the full truth of the V-Type virus. In worse case he was not informed by Leon about the true nature of the virus.
Actually, both the medical report in episode twenty-two and Klan's findings in episode eighteen match up with (and expand on) the information presented in the press release. The trick is that the disease is easily cured in its early stages, but incurable in the late stages. Grace lead Sheryl to believe that she had been cured, but the treatment that she was given was designed to just suppress the effects of the virus, so that she could co-exist with it (which was the source of Ranka's power, if you'll remember). By the time Grace revealed the truth to Sheryl, it was too late for her to be cured.

So it's not really a threat to the general public (although Sheryl does take some precautions, as we see in episode twenty-three).
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:21   Link #1168
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Wink

Good Lord, now you're just grasping at straws, Father Hentai.
By the same line of argumentation, I can also say that Ranka's explanation of the Vajra's motives and raison-d'etre is just her own version of it and they could all be plotting the downfall of humanity as a whole, still - just waiting for a better chance.
Suffice it to say, I don't really buy it.
I'd much go with the series' own explanation - however brief - of the workings of the V-Type disease, topically: infection via bodily-fluids (how Ranka got her version of the disease and, presumably, Sheryl) or direct contact with the Vajra (Ranshe's way of contamination, presumably).

And Swampstorm just reminded me: Sheryl knew she was infected - she just thought she had been cured. So, it could be totally inferred she knew what the disease was and how it could be transmitted - or the consequences to herself.
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:28   Link #1169
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What do you expect from someone who's working in accounting? :P

But going back to Ranka. Have you rewatched episode 13/14 already?
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Old 2009-01-09, 12:41   Link #1170
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Hmmm... nah, I'm at work, as well.
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Old 2009-01-09, 13:16   Link #1171
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While Ranka does communicate with the Vajra in episode fourteen, the audience doesn't really get a sense of what their "dialogue" is. The writers instead try to make us relate to the Vajra through Ai, who helps to personify them.

Again, I think the problem comes from the fact that they try to fit too much into episode twenty-one. As such, it's difficult to tell whether Ranka's decision to leave was driven by her realization that Alto didn't love her, or by a change in her priorities.

Even here, it would have been sufficient for Ranka to make a statement that makes a strong impact and says what she's fighting for (i.e. "I want to stop this war!" or "I believe that the Vajra don't actually want to fight us!") That's what's been glossed over, as far as motivation is concerned.

Compare this with Alto's monologue about how he'll fight to protect Frontier, or Sheryl's monologue where she decides to sing to give people hope even in the midst of her own despair. These critical decisions are what define these characters and makes them heroic.
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Old 2009-01-09, 13:20   Link #1172
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
While Ranka does communicate with the Vajra in episode fourteen, the audience doesn't really get a sense of what their "dialogue" is. The writers instead try to make us relate to the Vajra through Ai, who helps to personify them.

Again, I think the problem comes from the fact that they try to fit too much into episode twenty-one. As such, it's difficult to tell whether Ranka's decision to leave was driven by her realization that Alto didn't love her, or by a change in her priorities.

Even here, it would have been sufficient for Ranka to make a statement that makes a strong impact and says what she's fighting for (i.e. "I want to stop this war!" or "I believe that the Vajra don't actually want to fight us!") That's what's been glossed over, as far as motivation is concerned.

Compare this with Alto's monologue about how he'll fight to protect Frontier, or Sheryl's monologue where she decides to sing to give people hope even in the midst of her own despair. These critical decisions are what define these characters and makes them heroic.
While I do agree with pretty much everything you said, could it be possible that Kawamori did try to do that but failed to convey the message in a more direct manner like Alto and Sheryl? If I remember correct, when Brera and Ranka arrived at the Vajra home planet and the Vajra began to attack them, Ranka did say something along the lines of "That isn't enough, I want to stop all the fighting!" because Brera had suggested to leave because the Vajra became violent once again. Now the only problem here is that Brera was the only person to hear this.
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Old 2009-01-09, 13:51   Link #1173
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While I do agree with pretty much everything you said, could it be possible that Kawamori did try to do that but failed to convey the message in a more direct manner like Alto and Sheryl? If I remember correct, when Brera and Ranka arrived at the Vajra home planet and the Vajra began to attack them, Ranka did say something along the lines of "That isn't enough, I want to stop all the fighting!" because Brera had suggested to leave because the Vajra became violent once again. Now the only problem here is that Brera was the only person to hear this.
Dex you are mixing up something. Brera asked what Ranka wishes for and he will follow her. It was not the other way. Like Ranka he also has a desire to unravel own past. Next I'll have to relook this again but when both arrived at the Vajra homeplanet they were also not attacked at first sight and the first shot fell when Ranka was captured by the Vajra and where she unwillingly opened a Link to the Vajra network.

edit just to reply to BetoJR while he's still in the office:

It's Episode 13 where she felt the pain when a Vajra got hurt by accident when a shot of Breras gund was reflected to a Crystall thing of the Vajra Leader bug. :P

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What "cruelty" is there in singing to save millions of your own people? Ranka wouldnīt have died due to that, she already *did* sing for Frontier in the past, and if she had any kind of backbone instead of a jellyfish for her spine, she should have continued to do so. Itīs not a matter of "forcing" her, itīs a matter of her recognizing on her own that she has responsibilities. Sheryl did that in an instant, Ranka ran off.

And donīt tell me that Sheryl was under any less stress than Ranka. The circumstances may have been different, but knowing that youīll die soon with no cure ( at the age of 17, no less ) and that you are being asked to even shorten this little lifespan is something which we, who are save from stuff like happening, cannot even fathom. A heartbreak from a botched romance shouldnīt even be grounds for comparison, to be honest.
From my view it is cruel to push somebody to do/act something he does not desire. We are all individuals with a free will to decide. As you say she should have do it you can' t force her and that is the crux. She denied because she developed her will to say/decide what she wants and not what other desire from her. As Brera said in the series, her song is her heart and this heart belongs to her. If you can' t still understand that, then it can' t be helped. But this frees her from being toyed by an usurper. I can' t push you to understand what it means. But what I can ask you is if would let your own child have such a heavy burden to be blessed to love and then to act something she actually did not desire. Think about when her heart got torn by some reason and then she got is being forced/ to act something and also being taken into responsibility. You may see that Ranka ran away but in fact she did what was right: Listening to her heart.
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Old 2009-01-09, 17:55   Link #1174
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Dex you are mixing up something. Brera asked what Ranka wishes for and he will follow her. It was not the other way. Like Ranka he also has a desire to unravel own past. Next I'll have to relook this again but when both arrived at the Vajra homeplanet they were also not attacked at first sight and the first shot fell when Ranka was captured by the Vajra and where she unwillingly opened a Link to the Vajra network.

edit just to reply to BetoJR while he's still in the office:

It's Episode 13 where she felt the pain when a Vajra got hurt by accident when a shot of Breras gund was reflected to a Crystall thing of the Vajra Leader bug. :P



From my view it is cruel to push somebody to do/act something he does not desire. We are all individuals with a free will to decide. As you say she should have do it you can' t force her and that is the crux. She denied because she developed her will to say/decide what she wants and not what other desire from her. As Brera said in the series, her song is her heart and this heart belongs to her. If you can' t still understand that, then it can' t be helped. But this frees her from being toyed by an usurper. I can' t push you to understand what it means. But what I can ask you is if would let your own child have such a heavy burden to be blessed to love and then to act something she actually did not desire. Think about when her heart got torn by some reason and then she got is being forced/ to act something and also being taken into responsibility. You may see that Ranka ran away but in fact she did what was right: Listening to her heart.
But at the same time when you volunteer to do something then you should do it. Look at it from this perspective from the perspective of those who were being protected from that promise. They've just suffered a massive loss, a lot of their friends and family are dead, they're low on resources, a living unit had to be disposed of, they don't know when they're going to be attacked again, and the one person who can stop the enemies decided to shrink on their duties and run away. Not to mention we the viewers know why they attacked in the first place, is it fair for the people of Frontier to have to suffer the consequences of Ranka's decisions. When you say that about Ranka's decision your ignoring the effects it had, your ignoring the victims of Ranka's decisions. You cry out poor Ranka, poor Ranka, while thousands of people suffer from her decisions, your lack of consideration for that is grating. Sure she listened but who suffered from it? Who lost the most?

In my opinion Ranka is liked a spoiled child trapped in her own bubble, and when things don't go her way, her world goes crashing down. I just can't feel sorry for her, not if doing so entails ignoring the people that had to suffer because of her selfishness, but apparently you can so.... whatever works for you.
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Old 2009-01-09, 19:37   Link #1175
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But at the same time when you volunteer to do something then you should do it. Look at it from this perspective from the perspective of those who were being protected from that promise. They've just suffered a massive loss, a lot of their friends and family are dead, they're low on resources, a living unit had to be disposed of, they don't know when they're going to be attacked again, and the one person who can stop the enemies decided to shrink on their duties and run away. Not to mention we the viewers know why they attacked in the first place, is it fair for the people of Frontier to have to suffer the consequences of Ranka's decisions. When you say that about Ranka's decision your ignoring the effects it had, your ignoring the victims of Ranka's decisions. You cry out poor Ranka, poor Ranka, while thousands of people suffer from her decisions, your lack of consideration for that is grating. Sure she listened but who suffered from it? Who lost the most?

In my opinion Ranka is liked a spoiled child trapped in her own bubble, and when things don't go her way, her world goes crashing down. I just can't feel sorry for her, not if doing so entails ignoring the people that had to suffer because of her selfishness, but apparently you can so.... whatever works for you.
Yes she did volunteer but again I say that this was hasty again from her without the oppurtunity to ask the most closest person who is her custodian. Even though we accept her as a young adult she should have had the option to ask Ozma. But this failed due to manipulations/influences from Leon and Grace. Ozma would never have let this gone through but he had to accept that he has been compassed. You can see this in episode 16 where he was more than upset about the plannings Leon did. Yes, Ranka could have prevent more casualties and she did that already with great pain either by being unheared which tears her heart or by the Fold wave connected Vajra she feels through the bacterias in her belly.

I cite what Ozma Lee when he fought against the bugs in episode 17:

Quote:
So what? If the reactive weapons are ineffective, I'll use my missiles.
If the missiles don't work, then I'll use my gun.
If that does not work either, I'll use my fists, teeth, even my fingernails!
As long as my will to fight exists, I will fight! Watch me fight!
Outta my way!
This ain't nothing. It's just a scratch.
What kind of man am I if I can't even protect my sister and the woman I love!
And you know what? He's so damn fuckin' right. I hope now you understand me a bit why I am not willing to push any damn responsibility to Ranka, because thinking like that disgusts me. The responsibility to protect is within the NUNS and SMS and nowhere else. It is not a civilians job to protect. It is those who are trained for combat.
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Old 2009-01-09, 19:41   Link #1176
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Ranka had many chances to call it quits, but she eventually chose to abide by it. Please do remember that before Ranka went out to battle, Ozma did ask if it was alright for her to do so and that if she was content with the decision. She made the decision to fight.

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And you know what? He's so damn fuckin' right. I hope now you understand me a bit why I am not willing to push any damn responsibility to Ranka, because thinking like that disgusts me. The responsibility to protect is within the NUNS and SMS and nowhere else. It is not a civilians job to protect. It is those who are trained for combat.
And those with the powers to protect, but chose to withhold that power disgusts me even more.

I suppose its ok then, to see the Frontier burnt to cinders, because as you know, not even the NUNS or the SMS had anything at hand to stop the Vajra.

- Tak
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Old 2009-01-09, 19:52   Link #1177
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Ranka had many chances to call it quits, but she eventually chose to abide by it. Please do remember that before Ranka went out to battle, Ozma did ask if it was alright for her to do so and that if she was content with the decision. She made the decision to fight.
Have you ever asked a girl who is in love to make a right decision? I remember that scene too well and I also said to you that she had a big gap in that scene where before she answered.

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And those with the powers to protect, but chose to withhold that power disgusts me even more.

I suppose its ok then, to see the Frontier burnt to cinders, because as you know, not even the NUNS or the SMS had anything at hand to stop the Vajra.

- Tak
So you would let a civilian and even more worse a young adult girl let the battle fight for you?

Regarding the armory of NUNS. You are forgetting something. Weapons were in development but came too late to production. Also the fleet still had an arsenal which was working. Only the nuclear warheads were out of game.

And by the way. If Ranka would not have left the fleet Frontier for sure would be destroyed if you compare them with fleet strength of the Vajra at the home planet.
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Old 2009-01-09, 19:58   Link #1178
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Have you ever asked a girl who is in love to make a right decision? I remember that scene too well and I also said to you that she had a big gap in that scene where before she answered.
Yeah, and how she came about believing that she is in love is a mystery to everyone. And because her judgment was clouded, it nearly led an entire race to ruin. Are you saying that she is free from any responsibility? Like, really?

Being in love is hardly an excuse for making irrational decisions.

If I murdered someone and my excuse was that I was in love, I doubt that would get me anywhere.

Anyway, as you know, our biggest beef with her is that she is unable to ever break from her personal bubble. She believes what she wants to believe, without even the slightest consideration of the real situation around her. If it fits her mold, she'd believe it!

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So you would let a civilian and even more worse girl let the battle fight for you?
Why, you have an alternative?

The only thing really, that Ranka had to do, was to provide support through her songs in the safe confinements of Frontier's vessels. If she does not sing, then the Vajra would eventually tear the colony apart and get to her anyway. Whats the fucking difference?

Really, I don't get why you are arguing this. Its not going to save her if she doesn't do a damn thing about it.

Moreover, whats up with oh, I wanna sing because I want everyone to hear my voice, to I wanna sing so that Alto would luuuurrrvvveee me, to I don't wanna sing because that bastard hooked up with Sheryl. The fuck is up with that shit?

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And by the way. If Ranka would not have left the fleet Frontier for sure would be destroyed if you compare them with fleet strength of the Vajra at the home planet.
What? If Ranka had stayed with the Frontier, Grace would have never been able to revive the queen, let alone summoning the Vajra fleets to every human settlement around the galaxy. Ranka gave Grace that perfect opportunity to dominate the known galaxy, all because of her irrationality.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2009-01-09 at 20:12.
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Old 2009-01-09, 20:51   Link #1179
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Yeah, and how she came about believing that she is in love is a mystery to everyone.
She feels attracted from Alto since episode 1? This starts the triangle of worse...

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And because her judgment was clouded, it nearly led an entire race to ruin. Are you saying that she is free from any responsibility? Like, really?

Being in love is hardly an excuse for making irrational decisions.
This is what you interpret... I am not saying she is free from all responsibilities but you have to put each thing to weight with caution.

And if you view someone who is in love then you sometimes will be confronted with irrational decisions.

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If I murdered someone and my excuse was that I was in love, I doubt that would get me anywhere.
I would not like to reply on this because your example of murdering is way to abstract as I can connect this with her refusal to sing. Not to sing does not mean automatically that I murder people. Also I want to mention here is right after she left a replace has been found.


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Why, you have an alternative?
Like Ozma said and how Michel died. To fight and to die for the ones I love and vowed to protect. Or try to communicate with the Vajra.

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The only thing really, that Ranka had to do, was to provide support through her songs in the safe confinements of Frontier's vessels. If she does not sing, then the Vajra would eventually tear the colony apart and get to her anyway. Whats the fucking difference?

Really, I don't get why you are arguing this. Its not going to save her if she doesn't do a damn thing about it.
But they would get stuck at the end of the planet.

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Moreover, whats up with oh, I wanna sing because I want everyone to hear my voice, to I wanna sing so that Alto would luuuurrrvvveee me, to I don't wanna sing because that bastard hooked up with Sheryl. The fuck is up with that shit?
Why want me to reply on that? I already said that actually she believed to sing for other she actually was singing for Alto. That this made the love triangle perfect is what is fine.

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What? If Ranka had stayed with the Frontier, Grace would have never been able to revive the queen, let alone summoning the Vajra fleets to every human settlement around the galaxy. Ranka gave Grace that perfect opportunity to dominate the known galaxy, all because of her irrational decision.

- Tak
There is a Mother Queen bug in the orbital hive... Do you really think that the Queen would let herself inluence by a "little queen"?

Grace would somehow taken her into custody if I credit her the ruthlessness of a real villain. She was mostly only hiding her true powers. So I guess she would have find a way to confront her with her past to manipulate her for her intentions.
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Old 2009-01-09, 21:00   Link #1180
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She feels attracted from Alto since episode 1? This starts the triangle of worse...
Except you know what, Alto just was not aware of it. Ranka never understood Alto, nor did she ever cleared it up with him. Again, she chose to believe what she wanted, never confronting others in regards to the matter.

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And if you view someone who is in love then you sometimes will be confronted with irrational decisions.
Again, making irrational decisions are hardly excusable just because one is in love.

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Like Ozma said and how Michel died. To fight and to die for the ones I love and vowed to protect. Or try to communicate with the Vajra.
And what would have been the point if the entire Frontier fleet was wiped out. Never mind the fact that only Ranka can communicate with the Vajra.

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But they would get stuck at the end of the planet.
Which planet? Vajra homeworld? It was never their destination until it became necessary to reach that destination.

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There is a Mother Queen bug in the orbital hive... Do you really think that the Queen would let herself inluence by a "little queen"?
The Queen itself is actually an artificial construct made by the Protoculture, which lay dormant for ages until it was awakened by Ranka, now under the influence of Grace. And yes, the queen certainly had less influence than the little queen as shown in the last segments of episode 25.

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Grace would somehow taken her into custody if I credit her the ruthlessness of a real villain. She was mostly only hiding her true powers. So I guess she would have find a way to confront her with her past to manipulate her for her intentions.
Perhaps, but it would have been far more difficult, and perhaps easier to prevent than she waltzing into open space. I bet when Grace found out Ranka was heading towards her, without support, she was dancing on her toes thinking she had the best luck in the universe.

- Tak
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