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Old 2009-02-11, 13:46   Link #1341
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Itīs not. Itīs a matter of facts against fantasy. I prefer to stand by the side of facts.
Please note that I never stated it was you that was endeavoring in such a childish behavior, man.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:05   Link #1342
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Are you KIDDING ME? His fold booster is never not on? What?!?

Episodes: 7,9, 13, 14... I got tired of checking. No fold boster. At all.

Before you chuck out ridiculous blanket statements like this, check your facts!

So, I think we can without a doubt establish that Ranka a.) wanted to get off Frontier and b.) Brera was prepared for that.

So you either can continue to think that Brera was somehow anticipating Ranka and installed the fold booster pre-emptively ( I wonder how he explained that to Grace. ) and that Ranka was seriously thinking that Alto would choose to take her and Ai-kun, whose colleagues just had killed his best friend.

OR

Maybe you could accept that the most logical conclusion is that Ranka had already gone to Brera beforehand.
It seems I have been mistaken when it comes to the fold booster but it still doesn't change my opinion on the matter at hand. The dialogue is just too inconsistent for me to agree that Ranka had this planned with Brera.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:11   Link #1343
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
It seems I have been mistaken when it comes to the fold booster but it still doesn't change my opinion on the matter at hand. The dialogue is just too inconsistent for me to agree that Ranka had this planned with Brera.
Okay, whatever.

If facts canīt sway you, by all means continue in fantasy la-la land.

And thatīs too bad, because I had you pegged as the most rational Ranka fan on this board. Oh, well.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:11   Link #1344
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And thus: I can't hear you, la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la...

Sorry, just had to say it.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:19   Link #1345
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Thumbs down

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
And then steps in immaturity
Oh, give it a rest.
How can we - and, by we, I mean me - take you seriously when you don't even bother to refute perfectly sound arguments just because they don't fit into your fixed view? That's what's immature to me, by the way.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:25   Link #1346
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If you can somehow refute the facts laid out, Iīd be instantly prepared to stop my victory dance.

Just to enumerate them again:

a.) Ranka was committed to leave Frontier, hence her letters for Ozma and Nanase.
b.) Brera knew this and therefore equipped his VF-27 with a long-range fold booster.

How these two can go together with your statement that Ranka had not told Brera about this, and that Brera was ignorant of Rankas intent... well, maybe you can give a good explanation?

If the only still possible explanation is that Ranka sincerely believed that Alto would go off with her, on her pretext that sheīd have to bring Ai-kun back, just after one of Ai-kuns brothers had killed Michael, who was Altos best friend... then I fear I must declare Ranka too dumb to live.

I love their main description of the trope, btw. Fits Ranka to a T.

The character who drives the plot by doing things that no sane human being would do. Walking down the alley alone to tell her friend about the Serial Killer. Telling her best friend not to tell anybody, but she has a crush on somebody. Walking through the streets of Sunnydale after dark. Being Lana Lang. Splitting the party. Being curious. Searching the hero's room in such a manner that no one could miss that you did it. Not only possessing Genre Blindness, but putting Zaphod Beeblebrox's Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses on over it. Even close friends have to Face Palm upon hearing of their exploits. (Though it never penetrates their own heads.)
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:28   Link #1347
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Oh, give it a rest.
How can we - and, by we, I mean me - take you seriously when you don't even bother to refute perfectly sound arguments just because they don't fit into your fixed view? That's what's immature to me, by the way.
I've been in this argument since the beginning and like I said before, it's becoming redundant. I've already said that the scene could go either way, my "fixed" view is speculation which is exactly what your opinion is. None of us wrote the script so the truth is in the mind of the writer. The fold booster was on, ok but if Brera knows so well what Ranka wants to do, then what was the point in asking her? This is the main reason why I feel that it's inconsistent with your statements and thus I end up with my opinion that Ranka did not orchestrate a plan with Brera. I understand that Ranka had her own plan to leave and was probably going to go to Brera anyways but he showed up, much to Ranka's surprise.

My response applies to your statement as well magnus.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:35   Link #1348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I've been in this argument since the beginning
I have been in arguments like this for the better part of six months.
Seniority - if there is such a thing here - is with me, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I've already said that the scene could go either way, my "fixed" view is speculation which is exactly what your opinion is.
The only difference is that I don't have an opinion on this matter of the fold booster. I gave you a fact. And you chose to ignore it, since it didn't fit your bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
None of us wrote the script so the truth is in the mind of the writer. The fold booster was on, ok but if Brera knows so well what Ranka wants to do, then what was the point in asking her?
For the benefit of Alto (and ourselves). That's simple exposition - we, as the audience, still didn't know what it was that Ranka was actually planning on doing. It had to be put into words - and who better to do it? Would it have made sense to see her talking about it with Brera and then have her explain everything again to Alto? Why would we need to hear the same thing twice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
This is the main reason why I feel that it's inconsistent with your statements and thus I end up with my opinion that Ranka did not orchestrate a plan with Brera. I understand that Ranka had her own plan to leave and was probably going to go to Brera anyways but he showed up, much to Ranka's surprise.
You think she was surprised that he showed up, I think she was surprised at the level of violence he displayed towards Alto. On this, we can simply agree to disagree.
This point is the only dubious one, in the whole argument, so far.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:45   Link #1349
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I have been in arguments like this for the better part of six months.
Seniority - if there is such a thing here - is with me, then.


The only difference is that I don't have an opinion on this matter of the fold booster. I gave you a fact. And you chose to ignore it, since it didn't fit your bias.


For the benefit of Alto (and ourselves). That's simple exposition - we, as the audience, still didn't know what it was that Ranka was actually planning on doing. It had to be put into words - and who better to do it? Would it have made sense to see her talking about it with Brear and then have her explain everything again to Alto? Why would we need to hear the same thing twice?


You think she was surprised that he showed up, I think she was surprised at the level of violence he displayed towards Alto. On this, we can simply agree to disagree.
This point is the only dubious one, in the whole argument, so far.
Ok I've already admitted that I made a mistake with claiming that he was always wearing the fold booster but that's not what I'm arguing. The argument has to do with Ranka and Brera planning everything.

Ok so now you're saying that although Ranka and Brera had everything planned out, Brera for some reason just decided to ask Ranka what she desired again? Oh c'mon, see this is exactly what I'm getting at, it just doesn't make sense to create unnecessary lines if it went that way.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:46   Link #1350
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
You think she was surprised that he showed up, I think she was surprised at the level of violence he displayed towards Alto. On this, we can simply agree to disagree.
This point is the only dubious one, in the whole argument, so far.
What Beto said. Iīm too tired of this to make a detailed analysis of the whole scene.

I just want to say, given the now twice repeated facts, and that the conversation can easily be construed that Ranka is a.) surprised at Breras violence towards Alto and b.) getting tearful because it was Brera who granted her wish to go to Ai-kuns home, while Alto did not.... maybe you could rewatch the scene under this viewpoint?
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:49   Link #1351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
What Beto said. Iīm too tired of this to make a detailed analysis of the whole scene.

I just want to say, given the now twice repeated facts, and that the conversation can easily be construed that Ranka is a.) surprised at Breras violence towards Alto and b.) getting tearful because it was Brera who granted her wish to go to Ai-kuns home, while Alto did not.... maybe you could rewatch the scene under this viewpoint?
Don't get me wrong, I do understand how you're viewing it. I tried watching it your way and it could work as well but my perspective isn't as far-fetched as some are making it out to be.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:50   Link #1352
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Ok so now you're saying that although Ranka and Brera had everything planned out, Brera for some reason just decided to ask Ranka what she desired again? Oh c'mon, see this is exactly what I'm getting at, it just doesn't make sense to create unnecessary lines if it went that way.
I'll state it for the third time: he asked that question for Alto's benefit. And for ours, as the audience, as well. I can't explain it any better than this, and I suggest you familiarize yourself with other kinds of shows and movies that rely heavily on such a device - you know, anything with recaps or long explanations of motives.

If you can't grasp that concept, I'm sorry, but exposition is exactly that: it exposes the motives behind certain actions or happenings.

And Magnus, I'm sorry, but I can't believe there would be any possibility that Brera intended that question to mean if he should kill Alto. I mean, it's not like Ranka would ever reply positively to something like that.
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Old 2009-02-11, 14:52   Link #1353
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Ok so now you're saying that although Ranka and Brera had everything planned out, Brera for some reason just decided to ask Ranka what she desired again? Oh c'mon, see this is exactly what I'm getting at, it just doesn't make sense to create unnecessary lines if it went that way.
Actually, what I was thinking is that Brera was asking if he should kill Alto. He said this directly *after* he pulled a knife on Alto.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. Facts strongly support our side of the story, I think. At least I donīt have to jump through several hoops to have this scene make any sense.
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Old 2009-02-11, 15:07   Link #1354
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post

ok but if Brera knows so well what Ranka wants to do, then what was the point in asking her? This is the main reason why I feel that it's inconsistent with your statements and thus I end up with my opinion that Ranka did not orchestrate a plan with Brera.
I've always treated that question as her final confirmation to commit to the point of no return. That last chance to back out of doing something of serious consequences which cannot be undone. Did she desire to stay on Frontier and continue to chase Alto or was her true desire at that point to follow her own path?
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Old 2009-02-11, 15:07   Link #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
And Magnus, I'm sorry, but I can't believe there would be any possibility that Brera intended that question to mean if he should kill Alto. I mean, it's not like Ranka would ever reply positively to something like that.
Ranka, definitely not. But Brera? He's a stone-cold killer and it wouldn't be the first time he's tried to off Alto or at least rough him up. He told Ranka he would do anything she wanted, implying up to and including killing Alto in order to help her accomplish her goals. While Ranka would never consider such an act, I think things like that are always on the table in Brera's mind.

He probably thought, "is this guy in your way? Because I can take care of him in a jiffy if necessary."
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Old 2009-02-11, 15:10   Link #1356
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Ranka, definitely not. But Brera? He's a stone-cold killer and it wouldn't be the first time he's tried to off Alto or at least rough him up. He told Ranka he would do anything she wanted, implying up to and including killing Alto in order to help her accomplish her goals. While Ranka would never consider such an act, I think things like that are always on the table in Brera's mind.

He probably thought, "is this guy in your way? Because I can take care of him in a jiffy if necessary."
<- That. Brera doesnīt know Ranka nearly as well as we do at that point. For him, snuffing out an annoying pest like Alto? Probably standard procedure.

*edit* Make that definitely standard procedure. If you look at episode 13, he already tried to murder Alto one time for getting near Ranka.

So I guess itīs a character progress for Brera that he didnīt gut Alto immediately, when Alto pointed a weapon in Rankas general direction, but rather asked Ranka for her permission.
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Old 2009-02-11, 17:07   Link #1357
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Originally Posted by abynormal View Post
Ranka, definitely not. But Brera?
Oh, I'm not even gonna try to argue against this one. Of course Brera could have killed him in a flash. My point was that Ranka would never have agreed to it and, no matter how little he knew of her, that should be plainly obvious.
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Old 2009-02-11, 17:32   Link #1358
vivitoru
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RE episode 20 even if Ranka isn't guilty of murder she's guilty of manslaughter, any Ranka fans prefer Cloche in AT2 over Luca? Why? /thread.
Currently playing Ar Tonelico 2 and it's true that the resemblance between Ranka and Luca (behaviour) is uncanny (similarly Cloche could be compared with Sheryl)
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Old 2009-02-11, 17:35   Link #1359
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Ar2 is a game from which script writers can learn one thing, and they better do, making a choice is gooood. It benefits both parties involved.
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Old 2009-02-11, 17:38   Link #1360
Natsuki Hyuga
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Ar2 is a game from which script writers can learn one thing, and they better do, making a choice is gooood. It benefits both parties involved.
No it's not. If it were me, I wish to be given a choice of 3P if the girls are like AT2 ones Yeah, I tolerate Luca a lot, I know. She is the reverse of Ranka (from what I knew in Jp version), a bit annoying at first for me, but gradually becoming cute lol
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