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Old 2009-03-02, 21:19   Link #1481
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Seriously though Tak, you do need to relax a bit. Don't give me the "oh this is nothing, you have yet to see my bad side" bit because it is pretty tiring. What is also tiring is your redundant rants because you've been repeating the same lines in different ways ever since I read your first post. These rants are unnecessary whether or not people's opinions are subject for "scrutiny" as you like to put it. Your cursing isn't helping one bit either considering that you could be cursing to a minor on a public forum that many other minors could very well read.

By the way, the biggest reasons you hate Ranka for apparently are because of the person you praise. In my opinion, Ohnogi's portrayal of Ranka was misinterpreted and you always seem to twist it in the worst ways possible. We've already had our fair share of arguments about this, so let's just leave it at that.
I dont think you get to tell Tak what to do. Neither do I. I like him just like he is.
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:22   Link #1482
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
What is also tiring is your redundant rants because you've been repeating the same lines in different ways ever since I read your first post.
Funny how you should mention this, because you are doing the exact same thing whenever we have a similar discussion. So stop that holier-than-thou attitude and quit denying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
These rants are unnecessary whether or not people's opinions are subject for "scrutiny" as you like to put it.
Hey, this is a public forum, anything posted here is essentially free for all, just as you are doing now to my post. Am I bitching?

My thoughts exactly, EXCLAMATION MARK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Your cursing isn't helping one bit either considering that you could be cursing to a minor on a public forum that many other minors could very well read.
I admit I curse a lot, and I am not going to tone it down anytime soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
By the way, the biggest reasons you hate Ranka for apparently are because of the person you praise. In my opinion, Ohnogi's portrayal of Ranka was misinterpreted
And how totally unbelievably wrong you are.

Look Dexxy, I had not the single slightest idea of Ohnogi's involvement until well after I finished Macross Frontier. Before then, I thought it was all Kawamori's doing, and I thought he had done a good job (until episode 25 put a sudden stop on my track). It took me a long while before I realized that my praises were presented to the wrong individual!

Say what you will about Ohnogi's portrayal of Ranka, he is the one who put Macross on top of the polls and has other credentials to prove his worth. Moreover, one thing you can never deny is the fact that Kawamori fucked it up, a fact he himself admitted. May this simple reminder resound until the end of days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
you always seem to twist it in the worst ways possible. .
*Chuckles* This accusation coming from Mr. he is always with his fold booster Dex? Holy shit, now I've seen everything.

- Tak (I love you too Maggy)
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Last edited by Tak; 2009-03-02 at 21:35.
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:37   Link #1483
zalem
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I think as far as Ranka is concerned neither Kawamori nor Ohnogi did a good job with her. Ohnogi did a great job with Sheryl, but even though he tried his best to save the story (and did succeed to a degree...it became popular under his watch) he didn't do Ranka any favors. Kawamori wanted to keep her an unchanging stereotypical loli moe blob. Ohnogi...well, to be honest I think Ranka's worst traits showed up while the story was under his control. The terrible episode 20 is all Ohnogi. I think Kawamori and Ohnogi have to sit back and really think and plan out exactly what they want to do with her character and where they want her to go for the movie.

edit: when I say 'terrible' as far as ep. 20 goes I don't mean the episode was bad, but this is the point when I was REALLY unhappy with Ranka's character.
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:37   Link #1484
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I dont think you get to tell Tak what to do. Neither do I. I like him just like he is.
And you come to his defense, well I wasn't telling him to do anything, I'm giving him some friendly advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Funny how you should mention this, because you are doing the exact same thing whenever we have a similar discussion. Don't you deny it now.

Hey, this is a public forum, anything posted here is essentially free for all, just as you are doing now to my post.

I admit I curse a lot, and I am not going to tone it down anytime soon.

And how unbelievably wrong you are.

Look Dexxy, I had not the single slightest idea of Ohnogi's involvement until well after I finished Macross Frontier. Before then, I thought it was all Kawamori's doing, and I thought he had fulfilled my dreams (until episode 25). It took me a long while before I realized that my praises were presented to the wrong individual!

Say what you will about Ohnogi's portrayal of Ranka, he is the one who put Macross on top of the polls. Moreover, one thing you can never deny is the fact that Kawamori fucked it up, a fact he himself admitted. May this simple reminder resound until the end of days.

Oh, this accusation coming from Mr. he is always with his fold booster Dex? Ok then.

- Tak
This is exactly why I stopped discussing the same topics over and over again. I don't force my opinions on to others, though I can't say the same for others. Actually the assumption that he messed it up is just that, he admitted that he had lost his ways with what to do with Ranka's character but she isn't the only character in the series mind you. We will never know if he truly messed anything up, it's subjective.

You know, you can take your indirect shots at me all you like but I'm sorry that everyone isn't as perfect as you. *awaits sarcastic response*
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:49   Link #1485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalem View Post
I think as far as Ranka is concerned neither Kawamori nor Ohnogi did a good job with her. Ohnogi did a great job with Sheryl, but even though he tried his best to save the story (and did succeed to a degree...it became popular under his watch) he didn't do Ranka any favors.
Ohnogi admitted that he could not salvage Ranka after Kawamori pretty much screwed her up for everyone else. All the favors that Kawamori showered on Ranka proved beyond redemption. There was nothing Ohnogi can do, and he admitted that he did not have the confidence to repair Ranka. The only thing he could do after that point was to salvage Frontier any way he can, and to a large degree, he was successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun
he admitted that he had lost his ways with what to do with Ranka's character but she isn't the only character in the series mind you. We will never know if he truly messed anything up, it's subjective.
After he admitted that he did not know what to do with Sheryl, lost his ways with Ranka, and lost his sense of direction with Macross Frontier, I think it is a good enough indication that he had indeed, fucked up. I am not sure how much more of a confirmation you are looking for, but when he admitted he had committed snafu in his flagship title, its pretty much an equivalent to "ah... shit"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun
I'm giving him some friendly advice.
Do me a favor, do what you preach. I can easily raise many examples of you contradicting yourself, and at least I am not exercising a holier-than-thou attitude.

- Tak
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:55   Link #1486
X3HoLiC
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
except I can also tell you that a majority of the people who had seen Macross Frontier around the world would probably disagree with you.

- Tak
so my opinion is subjected for scutiny..? that's pretty cool..

1. a searching examination or investigation; minute inquiry.
2. surveillance; close and continuous watching or guarding.
3. a close and searching look ?.
...but all of my opinions are like being opposed..it's not an examination but like a war...

sure..ranka might have turned into a cake.. but i mean..if Sheryl didnt save Ranka...Sheryl might have not been able to live either..

i mean Ranka is cute.. sheryl is cool...it's like comparing Utada and Hamasaki...they are too diff. to be compared...i never disagreed with you..or said that u were wrong..
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Old 2009-03-02, 21:58   Link #1487
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Ohnogi admitted that he could not salvage Ranka after Kawamori pretty much screwed her up for everyone else. All the favors that Kawamori showered on Ranka proved beyond redemption. There was nothing Ohnogi can do, and he admitted that he did not have the confidence to repair Ranka.

After he admitted that he did not know what to do with Sheryl, lost his ways with Ranka, and lost his sense of direction with Macross Frontier, I think it is a good enough indication that he had indeed, fucked up. I am not sure how much more of a confirmation you are looking for, but when he admitted he had committed snafu in his flagship title, its pretty much an equivalent to "ah... shit"

Do me a favor, do what you preach. I can easily raise many examples of you contradicting yourself, and at least I am not exercising a holier-than-thou attitude.

- Tak
I guess I hit a nerve, well now you can bring all the examples you want I don't know what you're trying to prove. Of course I contradict myself at times because my opinions change over time, after doing more research and reading others opinions, even you have, so enough with the condescending talk.
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Old 2009-03-02, 22:25   Link #1488
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X3HoLiC View Post
...but all of my opinions are like being opposed..it's not an examination but like a war...
I hope you are not getting the impression that I am being personal. I am simply stating that this is a public forum, you post an opinion and there will be two outcomes, one of which we agree, and the other we disagree. I simply chose to do the latter.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2009-03-02 at 23:00.
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Old 2009-03-03, 06:33   Link #1489
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And a third...just plainly ignores you! I think it's the worst of the 3. Ok back to the topic:
I think Ranka's character was somewhat real,but she was clearly an anti-heroine. It's as annoying as Shinji from NGE.(Note: maybe because of the Evangelion's psichological nature i wasn't annoyed with Shinji and the sole reason why i was annoyed a bit with Ranka because she had little character development. That won't change the fact that most of the viewers were annoyed by both of them.)
A hero or heroine must be morally right and have a strong will. It's possible to make a good show with an anti-hero/heroine, but not in the classical manner. Macross Frontier's plot in that terms was classical. A hero or heroine must have adimirable features...Ranka has none of them(exept the Vajra-net connection...and her singing talent maybe but it's talent, not a human personae's feature). I hope it'll be otherwise in the movie.
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Old 2009-03-03, 07:51   Link #1490
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
And you come to his defense, well I wasn't telling him to do anything, I'm giving him some friendly advice.
Actually, you were telling him to shut up. If you dont think so, re-read your post.
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Old 2009-03-03, 07:58   Link #1491
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I have to say I get why some people might be put off by the swearing. It's kinda hard for me to stomach, as well... but, honestly, we should get back to topic, no?
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:12   Link #1492
Nosauz
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
A hero or heroine must be morally right and have a strong will. It's possible to make a good show with an anti-hero/heroine, but not in the classical manner. Macross Frontier's plot in that terms was classical. A hero or heroine must have adimirable features...Ranka has none of them(exept the Vajra-net connection...and her singing talent maybe but it's talent, not a human personae's feature). I hope it'll be otherwise in the movie.
This is not true, morally right allows for the viewers to connect with the hero more but it doesn't mean it is a neccisity for a hero to be "morally right." Take for instance Vagabond or Darker than Black, both the main leads are no where near morallly right, but still the reader/viewer is focused on their plight and not the moral implecations of their actions. Based on their thoughts and actions, and even their mannerisms, Lee, and Musashi come off as two powerful characters who are no doubts the heroes of their stories. Even if their morals may not be black and white they still have their own sense of self, which is what readers/viewers connect to. The reason ranka grates on me is because threw 25 episodes of death and war, she changes practically nothing about her character and the only thing different about her is that shes been revealed to be a varja, the lack of development and not the moral issues is what makes ranka so unlikeable, whereas many of the other characters continue to change within the series. Morals help the viewer connect but its not a neccessity for a hero. One final example of this is consider Lancelot, hes is still considered a favorite character with in king arthur eventhough he cheated with his kings wife, and then later went to butcher gwain and many other knights of the round table, yet many instances of him in literature and fiction depict him as a knight in shining armor, the perception of his purity in fact has nothing to do with his morality, it doesn't change the fact that he is a likeable character, morality just helps justify his actions, whereas character development allows the viewer to grow attached to the character much like one with a real human being.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:37   Link #1493
cerrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post

Throughout the show, convenience was Ranka's best friend. She needed an important part in the movie, sure, lets have the director oh-so-conveniently spot her singing. She needed to do something big, sure, lets conveniently have Sheryl and Alto thrown into a pinch. She needed quality time with Alto and developing herself into a super star? Sure, lets conveniently have Sheryl sick and half-dead. Then, afterward, she committed a mistake, but we are expected to also conveniently allow that to pass. How fortunate of her, to have convenience as her ally? Holy shit, and that is supposed to be good character development?

Now here's an interesting perspective that I haven't seen yet. Looking back, I'd have to say Tak probably has a good point here. When I look back at the other main characters it is hard for me to come up with examples where other "convenient" situations occur that advances their character development. Sure, Alto had a VF conveniently fall into his hands at ep1, but after that? With Sheryl...maybe when Ai stole her panties and caused her to jump off the roof and into Alto's arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X3HoLiC View Post
...but all of my opinions are like being opposed..it's not an examination but like a war...
Honestly, it was to be expected the moment you quoted one of OD's post. I'm not surprised at all. What is it about OD's posts that attracts such piss poor writing?

Last edited by cerrian; 2009-03-03 at 10:49.
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Old 2009-03-03, 12:30   Link #1494
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Lancelot
Lancelot, the very mention of that name boils my blood, the adjectives that flow in my head as such word is read or heard...

Hic jacet Arturus rex quondam rexque futurus!
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Old 2009-03-03, 13:10   Link #1495
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ok...I didn't said that moraly totaly right...
And if you remember Musashi become a true Samurai later. He started as an anti-hero, but thanks to his character development he became a hero...
Lee...i guess he has somehow moraly right despite being a ruthless killer(not to mention that's not exactly true at the time of the story...because he killed only with proper cause).It somehow contadicts but then imagine a Gundam pilot: He kills hundreds and we can say that he's moraly right(perhaps there's levels for how right someone moraly as for the strenght of someone's will)
Ranka killed millions of people indirectly but she shown no regret...it's enough for her to being anti-heroine.And perhaps her weak will is another issue for it. But you're right somehow...the people hates her because her lack of proper character development, but it's partly because her being somehow anti-heroine from the start(ok exept maybe the Galia arc, but it's an exeption...and i hoped she'll go that way from now on.)
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Old 2009-03-03, 13:18   Link #1496
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And if you remember Musashi become a true Samurai later. He started as an anti-hero, but thanks to his character development he became a hero...
No, in the manga Vagabond, not the anals of history, Musashi is a demon, yet as reader, and i'm pretty sure many readers, love musashi's character. in terms of societies view of him he nothing more than a mere monster, but from his opponents , his relationship with takuma, otsu, and to an extent sojiro, you develop a love for his amazing feats and his own sense of justice, or the context in which he lives his life. his character is very similar to hachi from PlanetES, they both follow their chosen path, his is to be strong, unrivaled under the heavens. At least from the manga at this point Musashi hasn't become the hero you say he is. I'm solely talking about the manga adaptation, and not the mix of history you refer to.

Ranka lacks development like musashi, her interactions with the characters and her own actions continue to reaffirm that she is a one dimensional character, there are never hints that she is growing from expeirence, this naturally makes the audeince disengage and lose interest in her character, and once this happens her qualities of being an ingenue no longer are appealing but become more and more obnoxious, because her character feels less and less human, not in the sense of varja or not, but in the sense of what other humans feel about humans, which just means that we no longer seem to think of her as a plausible character but more of a cutout, at least thats my interpretation for ranka's character

Last edited by Nosauz; 2009-03-03 at 14:27. Reason: lol i dunno how i got oishi, for the girls name
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Old 2009-03-03, 13:56   Link #1497
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Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
Ranka lacks development like musashi, her interactions with the characters and her own actions continue to reaffirm that she is a one dimensional character, there are never hints that she is growing from expeirence, this naturally makes the audeince disengage and lose interest in her character, and once this happens her qualities of being an ingenue no longer are appealing but become more and more obnoxious, because her character feels less and less human, not in the sense of varja or not, but in the sense of what other humans feel about humans, which just means that we no longer seem to think of her as a plausible character but more of a cutout, at least thats my interpretation for ranka's character
*Applause*

Hear hear, very good analysis Nosauz, very good.

- Tak
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Old 2009-03-03, 17:31   Link #1498
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I do not come here often but each time I come the comments are mind blowing.
Musashi .....
Musashi ?

Even I am a Ranka fan but would have never think of comparing him to Ranka even if it's the ultimate praise for her.
Musashi compared to Ranka ?! Ranka lacks devopment like Musashi ? Comparing a great warrior as himself next to Ranka a heroine in Macross? Comparing someone who really existed ,who dedicated his life to find "the way" to someone who is a fictional character and an innocent girl by the way ? I cannot remain silent since about it.
Even if you talk about Vagabond there are some comparisons that are absolutely impossible from a historical point of view and from a logical one. There isn't a single, possible comparison between the two at all.
I am shocked, Musashi ? My God... Whatever you take before logging in, it's really time to reduce the dose... Musashi...,really...
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:01   Link #1499
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I obviously missed a lot of posts. It is simple people, Ranka does not get herself seriously by her own self actually, why should we bother? |DDD;;
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:06   Link #1500
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Takky, I know your spitfire streak very well, and that's why you shall apply your brakes right here, and no you may not edit your post more to sneak in extra comments. :| For everyone else, I suggest you do the same as well and you could even use the ignore list like magnuskn did since it does come in rather handy and it'll save us time and grief.
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