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Old 2009-03-03, 20:06   Link #1501
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
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Originally Posted by crisis View Post
Okay, to phrase this as politely as I can, this is clearly getting out of hand with everyone slowly jumping on the bandwagon. It would save us all so much time if you duke it out over PMs instead of letting it spill all over the Ranka thread, so I suggest that everyone kindly stop it with their wisecracks because it's not really going anywhere, and not at all helpful to the people who are subscribed to this thread. Could you do that?
Not a problem, I just find it ridiculous how no one can really have a real discussion when all I see here are rants.
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:10   Link #1502
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Not a problem, I just find it ridiculous how no one can really have a real discussion when all I see here are rants.
I just tried to start a polite discussion two posts above. Maybe we could try that, then? And, maybe, lay off the rants?
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:14   Link #1503
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I just tried to start a polite discussion two posts above. Maybe we could try that, then? And, maybe, lay off the rants?
Sounds good to me.

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A suggestion: how do we expect Ranka's character to be handled in the movie?
In my opinion, they need to find a way to justify her reasoning better. Although I can somewhat understand what they were trying to do in portraying Ranka's character, it seems to be misinterpreted, at least in my perspective. I'm actually interested in finding out what exactly they were trying to do with her character after episode 18. Everything we say are only assumptions and pretty much subjective since we don't have any idea what exactly they were trying to do, although we can make educated guesses. I've read all the Ohnogi interviews and such, but they don't really say much besides how much potential her character had, but I want to know what his goal was. I think he mentioned something about Ranka realizing her past but it's still quite vague if you ask me.
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:26   Link #1504
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Yes, the break post-episode 18 was quite jarring, to say the least. The writing team (and Ohnogi is included here) wanted to expand the canvas and, in doing so, tried to move Ranka to a different place. However, the way the final episode actually went, all this carefully constructed character arc was virtually ignored. No, I'm not gonna put all the blame for it on The Hory Froating Head, but I'm sure this was his intent with the final episode - that was the ending he wanted.

The problem is just that it actually pushed back all the advances the character had made: her courage in making a stand (even if I don't really agree with it); choosing a course to follow, even if it meant loneliness; her taking responsibility in trying to end the war... and the mistakes she made. Most grating of all, those mistakes are never mentioned again. Like I said before, it could mostly be chalked up to a misinformation maneuver by the traitor Mushroom-Head, but no mention of even that was made - just a simple "She didn't betray us?" and that was that. Not even her own acknowledgment of her part in the deaths of so many people (however much she was being controlled, at the time). That's mainly what I hope we see in the upcoming movie: Ranka actually showing signs of learning from her experiences.

Her character is not all that uninteresting - and I don't mean to make it sound as if it is. My whole problem is with how she ended up accounting for her (in)actions. If they can expand that in the movie, I'll be a happy camper.
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Last edited by BetoJR; 2009-03-03 at 20:37.
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Old 2009-03-05, 05:26   Link #1505
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I'm posting again just to make a point.

It's kinda funny how some people complain about this section of the forum (the Macross section, be it well understood) being nothing more than a kinda shipping-shark-infested mass of water, and when someone actually tries to start a civilized discussion, what happens? Yeah, exactly. NOTHING.

Good for us. I've learned my lesson, now.
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Old 2009-03-05, 07:07   Link #1506
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Old 2009-03-05, 08:19   Link #1507
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Yes, the break post-episode 18 was quite jarring, to say the least. The writing team (and Ohnogi is included here) wanted to expand the canvas and, in doing so, tried to move Ranka to a different place. However, the way the final episode actually went, all this carefully constructed character arc was virtually ignored. No, I'm not gonna put all the blame for it on The Hory Froating Head, but I'm sure this was his intent with the final episode - that was the ending he wanted.

The problem is just that it actually pushed back all the advances the character had made: her courage in making a stand (even if I don't really agree with it); choosing a course to follow, even if it meant loneliness; her taking responsibility in trying to end the war... and the mistakes she made. Most grating of all, those mistakes are never mentioned again. Like I said before, it could mostly be chalked up to a misinformation maneuver by the traitor Mushroom-Head, but no mention of even that was made - just a simple "She didn't betray us?" and that was that. Not even her own acknowledgment of her part in the deaths of so many people (however much she was being controlled, at the time). That's mainly what I hope we see in the upcoming movie: Ranka actually showing signs of learning from her experiences.

Her character is not all that uninteresting - and I don't mean to make it sound as if it is. My whole problem is with how she ended up accounting for her (in)actions. If they can expand that in the movie, I'll be a happy camper.
Well since I somehow wandered into this section I'll give my opinion.

I never felt Ranka had much to atone or account for her (in)actions. We can take someone like Alto who took actions but ultimately the wrong actions. He had an us or them mentality. He never gave thought to peace with the Vajra and was influenced too much by others. Ranka even asked his opinion on the situation and if what they were doing was right. He is someone she trusts and believes in so of course she gives his opinion a lot of weight. He though had the wrong mentality which few ever really point out. Some criticize Ranka for being manipulated by Grace and Leon but so were both Sheryl and Alto to lesser degrees. They too would have just as easily been manipulated if not more so if placed in Ranka's situation.

Now Ranka was far from perfect but that's what I found so interesting about her. She was the most complex of the characters and by far the most dynamic. She grew, changed and learned. I don't feel she has to account for her actions (especially in the last episode) when she was basically used as tool by cunning people. Now it would be more realistic if we see people on Macross not being able to forgive her but I don't know if I feel that fits into the spirit of the show. People often think they'd not be as easily manipulated if they were in Ranka's position but generally those people would be all the more easy to manipulate. Ranka had a very unenviable position.
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Old 2009-03-05, 08:39   Link #1508
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Yes, Ranka had an unenviable position. But, she didn't really change or grow throughout the course of the series. As the 25th episode ended, she was exactly the same person as she was in the first one. And by her (in)actions, I mean really everything: ditching her own parade, not singing for the grieving populace, leaving Frontier without a real substantive plan... those are the things she should atone. Oh, and it wouldn't be at all unrealistic for her to actually feel some guilt for all the deaths she did cause, while being controlled by Grace. But, alas, we didn't get any of that. The reaction of Frontier's populace would have been a real bonus, too. After all, some people might be really peeved at her perceived slights of her own fans, and thus, she should have considerable troubles trying to restart her singing career - but we didn't get that, either. And it's too bad, as it would have made her character actually go forward, somewhat.

And you can't really blame someone like Alto for not really caring about the mere thought of peace with the Vajra. They were, unwittingly or not, responsible for the deaths of a whole lot of people - and, most importantly, for the deaths of some people he cared about.

Also, Sheryl was not manipulated in the least by Leon or Luca. She did take the mantle of the fleet's tool fully knowing they merely intended to use her. And she did it because she wanted to help - that's all in the show, not really speculation, on my part.
Her relationship with Grace is another matter, but you can't really blame her for not noticing she was evil - after all, she was the only mother(ly) figure she ever had, as the show made pretty clear.
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Old 2009-03-05, 09:02   Link #1509
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Her relationship with Grace is another matter, but you can't really blame her for not noticing she was evil - after all, she was the only mother(ly) figure she ever had, as the show made pretty clear.
Also it's not like Grace gave her lyrics about domination like Aimo O.C... oh wait that's because Sheryl writes her own stuff, my bad /slap
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Old 2009-03-05, 09:07   Link #1510
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Yes, Ranka had an unenviable position. But, she didn't really change or grow throughout the course of the series. As the 25th episode ended, she was exactly the same person as she was in the first one. And by her (in)actions, I mean really everything: ditching her own parade, not singing for the grieving populace, leaving Frontier without a real substantive plan... those are the things she should atone. Oh, and it wouldn't be at all unrealistic for her to actually feel some guilt for all the deaths she did cause, while being controlled by Grace. But, alas, we didn't get any of that. The reaction of Frontier's populace would have been a real bonus, too. After all, some people might be really peeved at her perceived slights of her own fans, and thus, she should have considerable troubles trying to restart her singing career - but we didn't get that, either. And it's too bad, as it would have made her character actually go forward, somewhat.
I don't honestly see why any of those things need atone. Leave her own parade? Wow what a major crime! I guess she didn't feel like celebrating slaughtering the Vajra. How cold of her... I think the point of that was more than if she had sung she'd be doing exactly what Leon wants which is to throw all the blame on the Vajra. The more she sung for him the more she justified his actions. Leaving the frontier was too find a way to end the war. Sure they were in a bad position but she had to make a tough decision. Staying there wouldn't have done anything but make her more of a pawn for Leon.

Yes, we didn't get to see any of the things of guilt or blame but I felt the show was better for not showing it. The show ended on a positive note of forgiveness and acceptance. It would have been not that great of an ending if we see people throwing blame around.

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And you can't really blame someone like Alto for not really caring about the mere thought of peace with the Vajra. They were, unwittingly or not, responsible for the deaths of a whole lot of people - and, most importantly, for the deaths of some people he cared about.
But, at the same time Ranka must get blamed for being manipulated? Alto point of view was understandable but still not completely excusable. Same as Ranka. He never bothered to wonder why in the first place the Vajra were attacking. He had his mind set on genocide.

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Also, Sheryl was not manipulated in the least by Leon or Luca. She did take the mantle of the fleet's tool fully knowing they merely intended to use her. And she did it because she wanted to help - that's all in the show, not really speculation, on my part.
Her relationship with Grace is another matter, but you can't really blame her for not noticing she was evil - after all, she was the only mother(ly) figure she ever had, as the show made pretty clear.
Well the main reason why Sheryl understood what Leon was doing was because she could see what happened to Ranka. Though this doesn't change the fact that he still used her "wanting to help" as a way to get her on his side. Manipulation can be pretty straightforward as in this case. You can know you're being manipulation but it is still manipulation. This also doesn't change that he used her to slaughter the Vajra homeworld as a means of "protecting themselves" of course. Her point of view was also understandable but also not completely excusable.
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Old 2009-03-05, 09:29   Link #1511
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But, at the same time Ranka must get blamed for being manipulated? Alto point of view was understandable but still not completely excusable. Same as Ranka. He never bothered to wonder why in the first place the Vajra were attacking. He had his mind set on genocide.
How can you compare Ranka and Alto situations when Ranka had a vastly better understanding of the Varja situation, more so than anyone in the show not called Grace. Ranka had insider information so to say and failed to act upon it. Why? because it seems she would rather go dokun dokun over Alto-kun than worry about the Varja.. and aside from that horrible character destroying scene in her bedroom the only time she seemed to care about the Varja was when her stomach hurt, right after she helped slaughter them Of course conveniently enough her priorities changed as soon as she saw Alto and Sheryl on the roof.

Alto didn't communicate with a Varja Queen, Alto didn't cry out to stop when someone was shooting up Varja, Alto didn't decide to not say anything about any of that, Alto didn't feel pain in his body after his singing helped slaughter countless Varja, Alto didn't have fragments of memory about Varja coming back to him throughout the show. Ranka had situational awareness and failed to use it, Alto and everyone else's reactions for the most part towards the varja make sense considering what they knew. God if the Varja had lawyers and found out Ranka knew this from episode 14 onwards and did nothing about it I would expect them to put in a few civil suits. "Honor.. while the defendant was having singing battles against Ms Nome in hospitals she did nothing at all to tell people about our situation!"

Really trying to put Alto in the same blame situation as Ranka for this is really rather naive and just flat out wrong. If Ranka looked like a feminine Bobby no one would defend her on this issue period except for "Going against the grain" people.
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Old 2009-03-05, 09:52   Link #1512
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I have to agree with BetoJR...She has absolutely no feeling of guilt. Not to mention that she shown nothing when her "best female friend" was in a life or death situation. It would be excusable as the director being lazy and skip that, but she never shown any sense of guilt when she killed probably millions indirectly by her unwillingness to sing[her voice didn't stopped the vajra...she at least can blame herself for it...but there's not a single indication], or her non understanding of the others grieving(not willing to sing again) and in the end when she was controlled by Grace she shown not a single hint of guilt. The thing that more interesting: She shown a lot of sense of guilt when her song used against the Vajra! She placed the existence of Vajra higher than the "human's"(Her own race!!!)...perhaps that's somehow understandable when your stomach hurts every time they're dying in mayor numbers and she have a lot insider information about them....but still. She was selfish, spoiled, weak willed and unable to take responsibility. She was clearly an anti-heroine(ranking higher on the list than Koichi from Linebarells or murderer Musashi...maybe even higher in that Rank than the "God of Death" Light Yagami...just exagrating with the last one). She was clearly not worthy being a heroine...as a side character ok, but as a Main Heroine?
I'm not hating her...just i hate the thing that we got that kind of character as Main Heroine...Because she clearly not someone who up to being in the center of attention...She's moe but immature and no matter what refusing to grow up.
Most complex? more appropiately: Alto-complex!She desires high amount of attention and unable to live without it!(ok from Ep 21 it seems that she grown a little, but thanks to Kawamori it was thrown out of the window). I think even the "skycon" Alto more complex than her. She clearly desires just that Alto care abiout her(and he desires perhaps more and more about it) without even giving back something for it. She's nomore other than a spoiled child with interesting background.

P.S.: maybe i am a bit more agrtessive today...excuseme for that.
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:14   Link #1513
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How can you compare Ranka and Alto situations when Ranka had a vastly better understanding of the Varja situation, more so than anyone in the show not called Grace. Ranka had insider information so to say and failed to act upon it. Why? because it seems she would rather go dokun dokun over Alto-kun than worry about the Varja.. and aside from that horrible character destroying scene in her bedroom the only time she seemed to care about the Varja was when her stomach hurt, right after she helped slaughter them Of course conveniently enough her priorities changed as soon as she saw Alto and Sheryl on the roof.
What vastly better understanding are you talking about? Sure she's part Varja so she could understand a bit of their pain but that doesn't mean she didn't consider herself primarily human just like Alto. Her character grew during the show the bedroom scene is one of the points where we truly see her questions the right or wrong of the situation. The situation isn't a simple one. And the change in her position had nothing to do with seeing Alto and Sheryl. It had more to do with what she saw after. Her being used and wanting to find a better way.

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Alto didn't communicate with a Varja Queen, Alto didn't cry out to stop when someone was shooting up Varja, Alto didn't decide to not say anything about any of that, Alto didn't feel pain in his body after his singing helped slaughter countless Varja, Alto didn't have fragments of memory about Varja coming back to him throughout the show. Ranka had situational awareness and failed to use it, Alto and everyone else's reactions for the most part towards the varja make sense considering what they knew. God if the Varja had lawyers and found out Ranka knew this from episode 14 onwards and did nothing about it I would expect them to put in a few civil suits. "Honor.. while the defendant was having singing battles against Ms Nome in hospitals she did nothing at all to tell people about our situation!"
Situational awareness? I don't think you understand the meaning of that word but I digress. Do you think Ranka actions doesn't make sense? What indepth knowledge did she truly have really? The queen and her didn't have some in-depth conversation. Her crying out was a reaction to the situation but that doesn't mean that she still has only now to grasp "something" about the Vajra, what exactly it means she could hardly say of course. Fragments of memories... generally they don't really make a lot of sense if not put in context. Ranka had no in depth knowledge of the Vajra motives or anything else go on that Alto didn't. Sure, she had barely intelligible memories and less intelligible feelings from the Vajra but it didn't give her a deeper understanding to the situational at all.


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Really trying to put Alto in the same blame situation as Ranka for this is really rather naive and just flat out wrong. If Ranka looked like a feminine Bobby no one would defend her on this issue period except for "Going against the grain" people.
LoL. This is why I don't miss this forum. Naive and flat out wrong... You being silly, if Ranka looked like Sheryl then all her faults would be forgiven and you'd been casting blame somewhere else. Let's not try to be hypocritical.
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:32   Link #1514
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I don't honestly see why any of those things need atone. Leave her own parade? Wow what a major crime! I guess she didn't feel like celebrating slaughtering the Vajra. How cold of her... I think the point of that was more than if she had sung she'd be doing exactly what Leon wants which is to throw all the blame on the Vajra. The more she sung for him the more she justified his actions.
All well and nice, but at the point of the parade, she hadn't really gotten all that figured out. So, not really something that should be totally excused. I mean, her fans deserve respect, no? She didn't feel like celebrating the slaughter of the Vajra? Then her inability to voice it up to someone - anyone - is also something to atone for. After all, if she had tried to make people understand her point of view, things could also have gone a tad differently.

Also, I noticed you didn't mention her refusal to sing for the mourning populace after the attack in episode 20. That's okay, too? Not something that needs to be addressed?

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Leaving the frontier was too find a way to end the war. Sure they were in a bad position but she had to make a tough decision. Staying there wouldn't have done anything but make her more of a pawn for Leon.
And she couldn't have tried to garner more support for her cause, she could only elope with her bodyguard and hope for the best? She couldn't have tried to talk more people into it, like her own "brother"? Only Alto? That's a trend that didn't quite get shot down enough, for me.

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Yes, we didn't get to see any of the things of guilt or blame but I felt the show was better for not showing it. The show ended on a positive note of forgiveness and acceptance. It would have been not that great of an ending if we see people throwing blame around.
It would have been more realistic if there was such a thing. Or even if she herself made, I dunno, a simple vow to make up for some of the harm she (indirectly or not) caused - or even, perceived to cause. The lack of such moral reasoning was severely lacking, in the end.

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But, at the same time Ranka must get blamed for being manipulated? Alto point of view was understandable but still not completely excusable. Same as Ranka. He never bothered to wonder why in the first place the Vajra were attacking. He had his mind set on genocide.
Like Westlo nicely put before, that was all Alto knew how to do. He didn't have Ranka's first hand knowledge or memories to even assume that the Vajra could, somehow, be reasoned with. They clearly could not communicate. Ranka didn't help there, either. Sometimes wars don't give people time or cause to wonder about their enemies motives.

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Well the main reason why Sheryl understood what Leon was doing was because she could see what happened to Ranka.
That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Sheryl knew what they were asking of her - mainly, to sing while dying to protect the fleet. Not because she saw what happened to Ranka. After all, the only thing she actually saw (as Ranka did not have any more contact with her after the Vajra attack that cost Michael his life and before the last episode) was Ranka flaking her career with some bad decisions. And you have to understand that sympathy for a group that's consistently shown to be slaughtering your own kind is very hard to come by. You're really asking too much for me to side with you on this point. Wars don't take kindness in hand too often. Even more when you are not able to reason with your enemies.

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Though this doesn't change the fact that he still used her "wanting to help" as a way to get her on his side. Manipulation can be pretty straightforward as in this case. You can know you're being manipulation but it is still manipulation. This also doesn't change that he used her to slaughter the Vajra homeworld as a means of "protecting themselves" of course. Her point of view was also understandable but also not completely excusable.
If someone knows exactly what he or she's doing and for what reasons, there's a case to be made that no manipulation actually existed, even if attempted. They even sort of got on her wrong side with all the sweet talk about her test results. And, just like Alto, she didn't know the Vajra could be reasoned with. Because, guess what? Ranka didn't bother to tell anyone about it.

As for your last post, replying to Westlo: if Ranka did not have an inkling as to what she could do about the Vajra (ie. Reasoning with them), then WHAT THE HELL WAS SHE GOING TO DO WHEN SHE GOT TO THEIR PLANET? I hope you don't want to claim that she was so ignorant to the point of going there without a hope of doing something. However poorly planned it was, it was a bold decision. However, as it turned out, it was a wrong decision, as well. If she had gone to someone else and explained just what exactly she intended to do (instead of only reaching out to Alto), things might not have happened quite so badly.

But the series didn't go that way, so we'll never know. But I know I can say what she did was wrong, in my mind's eye, even if she had all of the most noble intentions while doing it.
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:38   Link #1515
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I have to agree with BetoJR...She has absolutely no feeling of guilt. Not to mention that she shown nothing when her "best female friend" was in a life or death situation. It would be excusable as the director being lazy and skip that, but she never shown any sense of guilt when she killed probably millions indirectly by her unwillingness to sing[her voice didn't stopped the vajra...she at least can blame herself for it...but there's not a single indication], or her non understanding of the others grieving(not willing to sing again) and in the end when she was controlled by Grace she shown not a single hint of guilt. The thing that more interesting: She shown a lot of sense of guilt when her song used against the Vajra! She placed the existence of Vajra higher than the "human's"(Her own race!!!)
Basically your saying humans lives>Vajra lives right? I think that's completely opposite the message the show was trying to send. Alto had the belief that we're human and the universe wasn't big enough for two species. Ranka came to realize how wrong this was. Maybe because she was half Vajra it was easier for her to understand though still not a simple thing. It is of course human nature to value your own species, country, race, gender etc. over another but that doesn't mean it doesn't lead down bad roads. Where is Sheryl and Alto guilt for slaughtering the Vajra? When did they ever try to understand the real meaning behind the attacks? They gave into hate like most people would. Like I said the show ended where I felt it should with forgiveness and acceptance. Throwing blame around would only show that the people on the Frontier hadn't learned anything. Them only blaming the Vajra led them to that folly.
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:48   Link #1516
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Ranka was half Vajra? I didn't know that...

And you're still trying to make other characters to be the bad guys, by comparison, when they couldn't be anything but what they were, since they were in the middle of a war, with an enemy that couldn't be understood or reasoned with. At least, not that anyone knew - but Ranka.
Also, this is the Ranka thread, not the Alto or Sheryl's one.

I, for one, am not trying to throw blame around. I just wish for some kinda weight to the character's decisions, which was severely lacking by the final episode. And after such high hopes I had, since episode 21 ended with her teary-eyed goodbye to Alto. Oh, well...
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:49   Link #1517
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Leaving the frontier was too find a way to end the war.
What were the circumstances or her own internal belief that showed this was her intent when she left?
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:49   Link #1518
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I feel that Ranka has developed a lot in the series. From a girl who wants to chase her dream, and in the process, she learns that she has some special power, and finally mature enough to use her power properly for both sides (human and vajra)

Her departure to the Vajra planet is a break through in the story. Had everything remained as status quo, no matter how hard Alto and Sheryl tried, the fate of Macross Frontier is still a bad end (because that Leon is in control, and Leon basically blocks any idea of co-existence with Vajra)

@MFSXA
she intented to find a way to end the war when she left...I believe a scene when she arrived to Vajra planet, she told her bro to drop off the weapon, and she said there should be a way that human and vajra don't need to fight each other
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:55   Link #1519
BetoJR
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Her departure to the Vajra planet is a break through in the story.
On that, we totally agree.
But that decision did cost Frontier a lot of lives, in the end. Her going out to space with a single ship and no back-up was brave, but stupid as well. After all, that was plainly shown in the series.
However, her courage showed through there, and her determination. Too bad they kind of let that go, in the end and she reverted to what she was before. She was still "a girl who wants to chase her dream", as per her challenge towards Sheryl, in the last moments of the 25th episode. No gravitas, at all.

And, of course, she intended to find an end to the war. But that's not really how she voiced what she was trying to do to the only person she reached out, Alto. Not that it would have mattered much, but it could have planted some sort of seed in his mind, I dunno...
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Old 2009-03-05, 10:55   Link #1520
MFSxA
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where Rei Ayanami is...or prolly dreaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
@MFSXA
she intented to find a way to end the war when she left...I believe a scene when she arrived to Vajra planet, she told her bro to drop off the weapon, and she said there should be a way that human and vajra don't need to fight each other
Just to clarify, this was the scene where ai-kun left the ship? Before she was abducted?
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So I said in my heart, "As it happens to the fool, It also happens to me, And why was I then more wise?" Then I said in my heart, "This also is vanity." For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be forgotten in the days to come. And how does a wise man die? As the fool!

Ecclesiastes 2:15-16, NKJV
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