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Old 2009-03-10, 11:09   Link #1621
zalem
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Eh? The whole Ranka and Brera plan thing again? I do believe Ranka had things planned out in advance, but I don't get why people are arguing about this to begin with? Whether she did or she didn't plan this out with Brera, why does it even matter? Who cares? I think I better go back in this thread and see why on earth this even started....
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Old 2009-03-10, 11:11   Link #1622
BetoJR
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I believe it's just a pet peeve at this point. I, for one, don't really care.
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Old 2009-03-10, 13:11   Link #1623
justavisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalem View Post
Eh? The whole Ranka and Brera plan thing again? I do believe Ranka had things planned out in advance, but I don't get why people are arguing about this to begin with? Whether she did or she didn't plan this out with Brera, why does it even matter? Who cares? I think I better go back in this thread and see why on earth this even started....
That's exactly my question in my previous post....I thought they were trying to prove something...and to me, like you said, it doesn't matter whether ranka planned with Brera in advance or not....
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Old 2009-03-10, 15:36   Link #1624
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Since even the other Ranka fans, like you, have given up on opposing the fact that Ranka and Brera did plan on leaving Frontier together, and Father Hentai still espouses that nonsense of his, while quite apparently being unable to come up with a plausible counterscenario, and he is down to randomly insulting other peoples favorite characters, Iīd say he is trolling by this point.
I've given up because no matter what I say, no one will acknowledge the possibilities of my opinion, it'll just end up becoming redundant and on top of that, there really isn't even much of an importance to that scene. To me, the way some of the scenes were illustrated were just too inconsistent with your perspective of Ranka and Brera having orchestrated a plan. First I don't understand why Brera would even allow Ranka to ask Alto to go with her considering he was constantly saying "You're not suit to be around that girl." Again, this is just how I see it but you have your own opinion and I won't debate that. As far as we know, the gist of that specific scene was merely to express how Ranka felt about the Vajra and her feelings for Alto.

Insulting other people's favorite characters? Really? I could have sworn that you've insulted my favorite character plenty of times.
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Old 2009-03-10, 16:16   Link #1625
Father Hentai
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The point with the flight starts with this page:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...57#post2210157
Posting #1824

about the points that magnus posted... here are my answers:

Quote:
a.) Ranka wants to go to the Vajra planet

b.) Ranka needs a transport, unless you think she can fly through fold space

c.) Ranka is, quite assuredly, confident she will get said transport, because she leaves letters for Ozma and Nanase, telling them about her reason as to why she is leaving.

There is no point to argue here. Whether by those who oppose Rankas character nor from those who are siding with her or people inbetween.

Quote:
d.) Ranka cannot be sure she will get Alto to do the transportation for her, unless she is stupid as hell. Because the very type of Vajra Ai-kun has turned into has just killed Altos best friend and a swarm of them have wrecked his home into pieces, killing thousands.
As you are mentioning stupid as hell I say she is naive and hoping. A point of hope is that she will be transported somehow. Her greatest hope is that Alto flies her with a peacefully Vajra. This has turned opposite becaues Ai kun appeared before she could really ask him.

Quote:
e.) Brera had a fold booster installed, hence her, without a doubt, having talked to him before her meeting with Alto. Or do you think he had the experimental fold booster just strapped on for kicks?
Brera is almost 24/7 hours guarding Ranka. Therefore my thesis is that he watched Ranka from your point a.) to c.) and packed the folders from his own conclusions.

Summary at all:
point d.) and e.) are the only part where we can only guess. No ones win. There are still some people here who are trying to tell that all was planned by both.

As a proof that the flight was only intended by Ranka but the preparations were taken by Brera alone, look to the following episode. Leon and Grace had a conversation about Breras action.

and magnus... most of the people who posted here the last threads are getting tired to argument because some of you are talking around and also not letting other thoughts through here. Sorry to dissapoint you on but I am not easily to be shut although you wished for it. As long as I do not receive an infraction or warning from a mod I see my thoughts and posts as welcomed.

When I brought the flight discussion up again it was first meant a joke because I tagged a "" at the end.... I guess I make some more smilies or even better I highlight everything so everybody see that it was only a joke and nothing more.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2009-03-10 at 16:22. Reason: swallowed too much thoughts....
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Old 2009-03-10, 16:39   Link #1626
Tak
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Insulting other people's favorite characters? Really? I could have sworn that you've insulted my favorite character plenty of times.
Again, nobody is denying that. So why accuse him of something he is already doing and probably already acknowledged what he is doing? But just for your reference, Beto was not saying Ranka is dumb when he said

"Is calling your favorite character dumb not incentive enough?"

But thats beside the point.

I don't know if you have figured out already, if I insult a certain fandom, I do so openly, and I do not hide behind some higher-plane of morality.

You can accuse me of being condescending, well, that is because I am.

You can accuse me of being an asshole, that is fine. To some people, I may be one. Moreover, I get paid to be one, too fucking bad.

But I am not going to say stupid shit like "I am not _insert verb here_ you or your character, why are you _insert verb here_ mine?" Chances are, we are both doing the same thing, its just that I won't deny it.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2009-03-10 at 19:23.
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Old 2009-03-10, 17:00   Link #1627
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Insulting other people's favorite characters? Really? I could have sworn that you've insulted my favorite character plenty of times.
With explanations why I think Ranka is as dumb as a stone. Randomly declaring Alto to too dumb to live, and then saying it was just to get even is just trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
As you are mentioning stupid as hell I say she is naive and hoping. A point of hope is that she will be transported somehow. Her greatest hope is that Alto flies her with a peacefully Vajra. This has turned opposite becaues Ai kun appeared before she could really ask him.
I donīt know, maybe I am too jaded to manage to understand the mentality of a "pure" character, but to me, if that is Rankas thought process, that just sounds incredibly vapid and shows a complete lack of empathy from her side. Hence, my assertion that she is too dumb to live. Or maybe she lacks basic human understanding of grief and anger in people other than herself, I donīt know.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Brera is almost 24/7 hours guarding Ranka. Therefore my thesis is that he watched Ranka from your point a.) to c.) and packed the folders from his own conclusions.
Hey, see, that is what I am talking about, when I am asking about an actual argument. This hypothesis builds on examining the motivations of a character at whom we had had not looked before as someone who is in the decision process. This is actually a very simple and straightforward possibility, which makes sense. I still have reservations on the ground that Brera hadnīt been shown as more than a follower before, but since Ranka did awaken feelings in him which he did not had before, itīs a definite possibility.

I therefore amend my opinion. Good work on that part. Regrettably, that makes me have even less respect for Ranka, because, as I noted above, she then has no understanding at all for how Alto must feel at this time towards the Vajra. I call that either stupid ( which is actually the more merciful description ) or so emotionally damaged, that she cannot emphatize with other human beings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
and magnus... most of the people who posted here the last threads are getting tired to argument because some of you are talking around and also not letting other thoughts through here. Sorry to dissapoint you on but I am not easily to be shut although you wished for it. As long as I do not receive an infraction or warning from a mod I see my thoughts and posts as welcomed.
I said "put up or shut up". Which means, post something of worth or stop making wild assertions without backing them up. You did the former and changed my opinion, because I hadnīt considered how Brera would act in his situation. So, good work by you. Congrats.

But it took a good while for you to come up with this, and before you were decidedly unconstructive in this discussion. Try to keep discussing with rational back-up of what you are saying, and better conversations will come about.
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Old 2009-03-10, 19:33   Link #1628
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Again, nobody is denying that. So why accuse him of something he is already doing and probably already acknowledged what he is doing? But just for your reference, Beto was not saying Ranka is dumb when he said

"Is calling your favorite character dumb not incentive enough?"

But thats beside the point.

I don't know if you have figured out already, if I insult a certain fandom, I do so openly, and I do not hide behind some higher-plane of morality.

You can accuse me of being condescending, well, that is because I am.

You can accuse me of being an asshole, that is fine. To some people, I may be one. Moreover, I get paid to be one, too fucking bad.

But I am not going to say stupid shit like "I am not _insert verb here_ you or your character, why are you _insert verb here_ mine?" Chances are, we are doing the same thing, its just that I won't deny it.

- Tak
Just for the record, my last comment was not meant to be taken seriously but as a joke. At least your honest about the type of person you are but this really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, if you felt that way then you could have just PM'd me instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post

Hey, see, that is what I am talking about, when I am asking about an actual argument. This hypothesis builds on examining the motivations of a character at whom we had had not looked before as someone who is in the decision process. This is actually a very simple and straightforward possibility, which makes sense. I still have reservations on the ground that Brera hadnīt been shown as more than a follower before, but since Ranka did awaken feelings in him which he did not had before, itīs a definite possibility.

I therefore amend my opinion. Good work on that part. Regrettably, that makes me have even less respect for Ranka, because, as I noted above, she then has no understanding at all for how Alto must feel at this time towards the Vajra. I call that either stupid ( which is actually the more merciful description ) or so emotionally damaged, that she cannot emphatize with other human beings.
Now on a more relevant note, in my opinion it's not that Ranka doesn't have a less understanding of how Alto feels, it's just more wishful thinking on Ranka's part. Although the Vajra are the main reasons as to why Alto suffers, can't you say that the Vajra are also the main reason as to why Ranka has suffered considering that they killed her family. We've been focusing on Alto's feelings here but I believe it's fair to consider Ranka's feelings. At this point she pretty much knows that the Vajra had a lot to do with her past and how much damage they've caused her. One can say that Alto could try and comprehend Ranka's reasons for asking such a crazy favor from him, when they are the reason that Ranka suffers as well. Alto knows Ranka by now but at the same time it isn't fair because Brera's sudden arrival cut the conversation short as well as Ai-kuns arrival.
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Old 2009-03-10, 19:57   Link #1629
Tak
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
We've been focusing on Alto's feelings here but I believe it's fair to consider Ranka's feelings. At this point she pretty much knows that the Vajra had a lot to do with her past and how much damage they've caused her. One can say that Alto could try and comprehend Ranka's reasons for asking such a crazy favor from him, when they are the reason that Ranka suffers as well. Alto knows Ranka by now but at the same time it isn't fair because Brera's sudden arrival cut the conversation short as well as Ai-kuns arrival.
First things first, the Frontier fleet does not revolve around Ranka. It is very selfish to think that Ranka's feelings should be considered when 10 million people are suffering.

Moreover, at that time, Ranka has yet to show any signs of recovery, so it is arguable how much she associate the Vajra with the demise of her family. But that is besides the point.

Now, onto Alto, why should he suddenly, after witnessing the death of his best friend, comprehend Ranka's reasoning? Why is it that everyone has to consider Ranka's feelings? When was the last time Ranka ever considered everyone's feelings? Has she not been spoiled enough? Did she really have to pick that specific day? Can she not plan it out in a better way? Can she not discuss it with her friends first? Did she really think she can wing this alone? She basically decided to do this in the span of less than a day!

Moreover, if she did acquire Alto's cooperation, so what? Do not forget that Alto is only an above-average pilot. This is a man who has the track record for losing more Valkyries than any other pilots in Macross, never mind that he is also subject to many near-miss situations.

And I am not even going to get into how difficult it is for Alto to actually jack a VF-171, never mind finding a fold booster.

This is of course, followed by a possible duel with Berera and then an encounter with Grace. You think Alto can survive both of them?

- Tak
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:07   Link #1630
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
And I am not even going to get into how difficult it is for Alto to actually jack a VF-171, never mind finding a fold booster.

- Tak
At this point Alto is still a member of S.M.S. and has access to his regular VF. There is no need to hijack a VF-171. Also Col. Wilder has once proven that he is also willing risk material for one persons life.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:23   Link #1631
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
First things first, the Frontier fleet does not revolve around Ranka. It is very selfish to think that Ranka's feelings should be considered when 10 million people are suffering.

Moreover, at that time, Ranka has yet to show any signs of recovery, so it is arguable how much she associate the Vajra with the demise of her family. But that is besides the point.

Now, onto Alto, why should he suddenly, after witnessing the death of his best friend, comprehend Ranka's reasoning? Why is it that everyone has to consider Ranka's feelings? When was the last time Ranka ever considered everyone's feelings? Has she not been spoiled enough? Did she really have to pick that specific day? Can she not plan it out in a better way? Can she not discuss it with her friends first? Did she really think she can wing this alone? She basically decided to do this in the span of less than a day!

Moreover, if she did acquire Alto's cooperation, so what? Do not forget that Alto is only an above-average pilot. This is a man who has the track record for losing more Valkyries than any other pilots in Macross, never mind that he is also subject to many near-miss situations.

And I am not even going to get into how difficult it is for Alto to actually jack a VF-171, never mind finding a fold booster.

This is of course, followed by a possible duel with Berera and then an encounter with Grace. You think Alto can survive both of them?

- Tak
To be honest, Nanase was in the hospital recovering from a coma and Luca isn't the logical choice when she can try and ask Alto. I do agree that all these decisions are selfish but her reason for leaving is considering the Frontier's feelings when she wants to stop the war by trying to communicate with the Vajra. My point here is discussing the 1 on 1 conversation that Ranka and Alto had, Alto should be questioning himself wondering why Ranka would ask such a favor from him in order to understand what her reasons are but to be fair to Alto there wasn't enough time to actually finish the conversation considering Ai-kun and Brera's arrivals.

Ranka knows that she couldn't do it alone, hence her decision to ask Alto for help but do you honestly think that someone would be thinking about how many Valkyrie's he's lost and counting how many "near-misses" he's had when Ranka has never been in a battlefield except to sing, but even then I doubt she could even keep an eye on Alto who was flying all over the place.
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Old 2009-03-10, 20:49   Link #1632
Tak
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
At this point Alto is still a member of S.M.S. and has access to his regular VF. There is no need to hijack a VF-171. Also Col. Wilder has once proven that he is also willing risk material for one persons life.
You brought up a good point, but by stating this, you just dimmed Ranka's intelligence again. I've mentioned time and time again, why does she not consult her brother, or anyone on the SmS considering that Ozma and co. have yet to gone AWOL.

That is, if you still hold on the theory that Berera and Ranka did not plan this thing out in the first place.

Sure, Nanase is in a coma and Luca is a major fuck up, but at that point, what prevented her from even contacting her brother for help? With an entire platoon of yes-ma'ams around her, she never lacked anybody to consult things with. The problem with her character lies in some of the decisions and choices she made. Why can't she ever think of anything through? Was it that hard? The options were in front of her, and she can't even consult any of them. Never mind that she tend to exercise a terribly narrow view on nearly everything around her. It is fine and dandy for you to suggest that Alto can borrow a bloody VF-25, but guess what, at that point, Ranka probably saw Alto as the S.m.S and the universe. His actions and words are the manifestation of her little world. With that said, Ranka's lil' scheme would never fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Ranka knows that she couldn't do it alone, hence her decision to ask Alto for help but do you honestly think that someone would be thinking about how many Valkyrie's he's lost and counting how many "near-misses" he's had when Ranka has never been in a battlefield except to sing, but even then I doubt she could even keep an eye on Alto who was flying all over the place.
Because at that point I was considering the difficulties of the production team to actually implement that segment into the show.

That is, if you believe Banana and Ranka were not involved in the advance planning.

Are we to suddenly make Alto bridejacker Yamato?

And let us assume he can survive the encounter with Banana (highly unlikely), I wonder how he fares against Grace and the Vajra fleet. Grace has no use for Alto, in fact, she thinks very little of him (if at all), and at her prime, she'd probably just outright kill him. You are welcomed to think of possibilities, but the more I think about it, the more implausible it becomes.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2009-03-10 at 21:06.
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Old 2009-03-10, 21:36   Link #1633
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I thought Ozma was gone "missing"....didn't Leon tell Ranka that news in public funeral??
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Old 2009-03-10, 22:09   Link #1634
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I thought Ozma was gone "missing"....didn't Leon tell Ranka that news in public funeral??
Yeah he was missing. Right before Ranka couldn't sing, Leon had told her that Ozma was missing. After this, she ran into the forest and found Ai-kun and realized that he was a Vajra which led to her decision to leave.
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Old 2009-03-10, 22:32   Link #1635
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I thought Ozma was gone "missing"....didn't Leon tell Ranka that news in public funeral??
Doesn't change the fact that she still had a platoon of folks to consult with.

- Tak
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Old 2009-03-11, 02:00   Link #1636
Father Hentai
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You brought up a good point, but by stating this, you just dimmed Ranka's intelligence again. I've mentioned time and time again, why does she not consult her brother, or anyone on the SmS considering that Ozma and co. have yet to gone AWOL.

That is, if you still hold on the theory that Berera and Ranka did not plan this thing out in the first place.

Sure, Nanase is in a coma and Luca is a major fuck up, but at that point, what prevented her from even contacting her brother for help? With an entire platoon of yes-ma'ams around her, she never lacked anybody to consult things with. The problem with her character lies in some of the decisions and choices she made. Why can't she ever think of anything through? Was it that hard? The options were in front of her, and she can't even consult any of them. Never mind that she tend to exercise a terribly narrow view on nearly everything around her. It is fine and dandy for you to suggest that Alto can borrow a bloody VF-25, but guess what, at that point, Ranka probably saw Alto as the S.m.S and the universe. His actions and words are the manifestation of her little world. With that said, Ranka's lil' scheme would never fly.
- Tak
One thing that speaks against to contact her brother is that Ai kun was an illegal pet before her turned out to be vajra. Try to explain that without risking that Ai kun would first be shot and then questioned where she got him...

The second thing is that Ozma for sure would not answer on his cell phone to prevent to be detected. After the funeral her house was under agents investigations - don't know if they are Leons or Graces' goons. I would also say that she tried to contact him via cell phone but Ozma just did not reply or he lost his cell phone.
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Old 2009-03-11, 07:34   Link #1637
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Try to explain that without risking that Ai kun would first be shot and then questioned where she got him...
There. You said it yourself.

And if she actually thought that far about how Ozma would react, why can't she do the same with Alto? This is a creature who just killed his best friend, witnessed by Ranka herself. Can she be so insensitive?

Again, if she was clinging to the folly of having Alto accompanying her to the Vajra homeworld, it does not exactly make her character shine in the sense department.

But Berera on the other hand, did not really hold much of a grudge against Ai-Kun. He has seen it, and cared very little for it. If Ranka wanted to keep it, so be it.

But, according to some, Berera and Ranka's trip was random... ok then.

- Tak
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Old 2009-03-11, 08:12   Link #1638
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
There. You said it yourself.

And if she actually thought that far about how Ozma would react, why can't she do the same with Alto? This is a creature who just killed his best friend, witnessed by Ranka herself. Can she be so insensitive?

Again, if she was clinging to the folly of having Alto accompanying her to the Vajra homeworld, it does not exactly make her character shine in the sense department.

But Berera on the other hand, did not really hold much of a grudge against Ai-Kun. He has seen it, and cared very little for it. If Ranka wanted to keep it, so be it.

But, according to some, Berera and Ranka's trip was random... ok then.

- Tak
The difference between Alto and Ozma is that Ozma would not risk to shoot if someone - especially his child in custody - is in the line of fire. Another point is that Ozma is more calm than Alto. Therefore he would listen to what Ranka say. But when I mentioned that it will be first shot and then questioned I did not thought of Ozma directly but more of the people around them. This means the army, the SMS members and civilians who are not related to her.
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Old 2009-03-11, 20:30   Link #1639
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Another point is that Ozma is more calm than Alto. Therefore he would listen to what Ranka say.
Hahaha, yeah! So true...
Don't you remember ep 5, Star Date, when Ozma and Ranka argue? Oh... That's not the best example I can come up with, right?
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Old 2009-03-11, 20:42   Link #1640
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Yeah, he knows how to handle delicate situations rather well, doesn't he?
I'm a man, not an adult!
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