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Old 2009-07-20, 23:19   Link #1781
Snowblind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
As for texting guys alot, Yeah i do it all the time , Anyway earlier the point was she was already texting to Alto about herself.
I've been woken up by unexpected text messages on more than a few occasions, so I know it happens. And she was, but hey, entering the Miss Macross contest is a big deal, so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
The scene goes from Ranka's "Sakurahime?" to a different scene, going to the conversation with Michel the Manager and Alto. So it can be assumed that Sheryl filled her in while the producer was trying to convince Alto. But Who knows?
Sorry, I should have clarified there. The next scene with Ranka and company picks up with that line. I think it's a bit of an assumption to assume it was Sheryl that filled her in when the PA was gushing, and Alto himself was right there to explain.

Besides, it sounds like she feels bad for not knowing, so that should count for something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Sillyness isn't going to have somebodies protective instinct turn on.
Well, 'silliness' is my word for it because the episode was meant to be lighthearted in tone. Alto uses the term reckless (at least in my translation). Which is probably a fair assessment when someone has to be saved after throwing themselves off of a building in pursuit of their underwear. O.o There are other less lighthearted occasions as well, particularly after Sheryl's illness progresses and she tries to act as though everything is fine. Etc etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Unconsciously might have been the wrong word, hmm.. Danger seems to fit it better. Rather, she didn't foresee the result. Such as the impact of leaving to find the Vajra planet...
I think she knew the impact, but thought the benefits outweighed the risks when peace was a possible end result. Again, I can't watch ep 21 at the moment to confirm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Singing that ended up attracting all the vajra...
In episode 20? That was only after Alto and Sheryl put her up to it. She didn't want to sing there. Or somewhere else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
...then refusing to sing in front of thousands of people.
Ep 21... can't watch, so the details are a bit foggy. Not really a danger situation, and I can't recall Alto or anyone else 'getting her out' of that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
The point I'm trying to get across is that Ranka gets herself into dangerous situations constantly and Alto has to bail her out to the point that he seems to have a Protective instinct about her.
I agree that he certainly feels protective of her, he admits as much in episode 23, but he felt that way all the way back in episode 3 (arguably episode 2), so I don't think it was meant to be as a result of 'always getting herself in trouble' (no more so than any other characters, anyway), and I don't think it's a paternal or fraternal sort of protectiveness. There's just a connection there. That's part of what makes it a triangle. (Yes, that's a whole different can of worms, but you have to admit that, like just about any other Macross series, a love triangle was the intention of the creators)
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Old 2009-07-20, 23:25   Link #1782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makina Hoshimura View Post
She always liked to sing and since episode 10 others knew about her existence she got that....and then she wants to reach Alto, I don't think is wrong to reach someone you love through the thing you like to do.
Of course there is nothing wrong with reaching someone through things she likes to do, but if that very act became the focus and standard of everything that she does, then its a big problem.

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Old 2009-07-20, 23:26   Link #1783
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Y'know...it kinda sounds to me like everyone decided they hated Ranka, and then scrutinized everything she did in the absolute worst possible light they could.

This is not a discussion, this is just a reiteration of points the Ranka-Haters have agreed on. It's like talking to a group of Fundamentalists.

As such, I'm done.
I wouldn't call it so much as hate but it just feels like someone stated reasons to not like her and exaggerated it in which everyone else followed. It doesn't help that Ranka is one of the love interests in the series. I just don't buy into most of the reasons that people dislike her for. A difference in opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makina Hoshimura View Post
She always liked to sing and since episode 10 others knew about her existence she got that....and then she wants to reach Alto, I don't think is wrong to reach someone you love through the thing you like to do.
Likewise, I didn't really see anything wrong with Ranka trying to reach Alto through her songs. In my opinion, I think the songs did reach Alto but he was just too hard-headed for his own good.
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Old 2009-07-20, 23:39   Link #1784
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I wouldn't call it so much as hate but it just feels like someone stated reasons to not like her and exaggerated it in which everyone else followed. It doesn't help that Ranka is one of the love interests in the series. I just don't buy into most of the reasons that people dislike her for. A difference in opinions.
True. But hearing regurgitated points for the umpteenth time (when they didn't convince me the first time) doesn't interest me. If it's a real conversation, fine and good. If it's just a list of the talking points, nuh-uh. I've heard 'em, you've heard 'em, why give anyone a chance to spout 'em again?

I got a PM from someone earlier today saying, essentially, "I'm sick of this. If this is how they are, I'll go elsewhere." And this was a relatively benign conversation on the topic, compared to previous ones.

Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
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Old 2009-07-20, 23:45   Link #1785
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
In order to secure the divinity and purity of her majesty the empress, occasionally a bit of strategic diversion must be commenced

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Old 2009-07-20, 23:52   Link #1786
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
In order to secure the divinity and purity of her majesty the empress, occasionally a bit of strategic diversion must be commenced

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*sigh*

It's a good thing I know you're joking...
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Old 2009-07-20, 23:55   Link #1787
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I can understand the frustration, and I'm sorry if the discussion upset anyone. O.o

I just jumped in because I find the constant negativity about the character... well, frustrating (hate using the word again so soon), so I felt compelled to challenge some of it. I have no problems with people not liking the character, that's fine, but the partisanship here seems... extreme... sometimes. o.O

What can I say, I like balance.
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Old 2009-07-21, 00:03   Link #1788
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
I have no problems with people not liking the character, that's fine, but the partisanship here seems... extreme... sometimes. o.O
Wait until you visit the Chinese forums...

Heh, they gave one-sided landslide a whole new meaning.

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Old 2009-07-21, 00:16   Link #1789
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Wait until you visit the Chinese forums...

Heh, they gave one-sided landslide a whole new meaning.

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There's something mean and nasty that I thought about saying...but since I recommended restraint before, I guess I gotta put my money where my mouth is, huh?
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Old 2009-07-21, 00:40   Link #1790
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
If it's a real conversation, fine and good. If it's just a list of the talking points, nuh-uh. I've heard 'em, you've heard 'em, why give anyone a chance to spout 'em again?

Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
THAT'S what I've been saying. W.O.T. Waste Of Time. Nothing. There is nothing to be gained from all of it aside from the itsy bitsy fact that you have just wasted your time.

But get this, me saying that all of this is a waste of time will not convince anyone, afterall this is another opinion. hahah
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Old 2009-07-21, 00:48   Link #1791
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
There's something mean and nasty that I thought about saying...but since I recommended restraint before, I guess I gotta put my money where my mouth is, huh?
Does it start with b* and was said by Cathy in episode 1?
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Old 2009-07-21, 00:53   Link #1792
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
True. But hearing regurgitated points for the umpteenth time (when they didn't convince me the first time) doesn't interest me. If it's a real conversation, fine and good. If it's just a list of the talking points, nuh-uh. I've heard 'em, you've heard 'em, why give anyone a chance to spout 'em again?

I got a PM from someone earlier today saying, essentially, "I'm sick of this. If this is how they are, I'll go elsewhere." And this was a relatively benign conversation on the topic, compared to previous ones.

Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
For some reason my Internet died for like half an hour

Anyways, I heartily agree with you here. My first experiences in this sub-forum was new because I honestly never got into a "shipping war." I actually just came into the Ranka thread and posted my opinion on Ranka's character, a very general statement at that and I was bombarded with responses Let's just say it wasn't the best of my experiences

Well it's disappointing to hear that someone left this sub-forum because of discussions as these, but these type of arguments will happen from time to time, it's inevitable. Well in the beginning, after I realized how redundant these arguments became, I just wanted to reach a consensus at the very least but it never happened. Some are just more passionate about this than others.

Either way, you're right. There is nothing to be gained from this.
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Old 2009-07-21, 01:11   Link #1793
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Does it start with b* and was said by Cathy in episode 1?
No, it was more clever than that. And meaner.
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Old 2009-07-21, 01:13   Link #1794
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Let's put it this way. It's hard to argue here and to get a confirmation you have to clarify every single posting you do. It's extremely hard and mostly it ends ups ending in wall of texts just like Snowblind currently.

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Old 2009-07-21, 04:46   Link #1795
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Wow, one night goes by and suddenly this subsection implodes.

Iīll keep it to certain points, I donīt want to keep the whole day doing single line replies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Funny. When you say self-centered I get the picture of Sheryl fom the earlier stage of the series.
I wasn't talking about the beginning of the series. I am talking about the series as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
I guess we differ there. I don't see Alto as being into pity (at any rate, he steadfastly refuses to pity Sheryl in the latter part of the series).

And I think if he had merely felt like he had to protect her, he would've gotten tired of that long before the end of the series. Of course, no matter what, he would've saved her in episode 25...but before she left Frontier, they were still hanging out, doing things...being friends.
I guess using "pity" was the wrong word, I was just following your own lead there. I was thinking more along the lines of "feels responsible / protective of Ranka".

And nowhere did I say that they were not friends... I think you are interpreting things into my answers which are not there. I donīt know if youīve convinced yourself that I somehow hate Ranka and donīt believe that Alto truly was her friend... that is not true. I do not hate Ranka per se, I hate that she didnīt grow up like the others did and still can keep being a competitor for Alto( I wonīt get into my way of thinking that she only is that in her own mind... thatīd open a wholly other can of worms ). I think Alto truly was her friend in the end... but only that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Hey I also think Ranka has her development too..glad to know someone else also has similar viewpoint
Of course Ranka has grown from episode one, but in a stunted way, IMO. She clearly gained tons of self-confidence, but she still fundamentally approaches things from a "How does this relate to me?" perspective, while Sheryl and Alto do not. How do I know this? Because the show went out of its way to show me that they cared about the perspective of other people, in case of Sheryl and Alto, and very conspiciously did not with Ranka.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Ehhhh? Where does he say this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
The translation I have says he joined in order to protect Ranka, plain and simple.
Ahem. You might want to keep your answers refuting me straight from one paragraph to the next, because contradicting yourself like this makes your whole argument look silly, especially if you are coming this aggressively at me.

I said Ranka is why he joined the military. Which is 100% correct, if you remember that from episode one ( Yack Deculture Edition ) he was not sure how we would go about piloting, only that he wanted to be a pilot. He was not sure at that time that he wanted to be a military pilot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
How is she ultimately self-centred? There are many occasions in which she shows concern or interest in others. There are occasions where she steps back from her own wishes so as not to get in the way. See ep 4, when Alto tries to console her over the Miss Macross results, she instead takes the opportunity to congratulate him on passing his SMS entry tests. Or ep 12 where she puts herself in harm's way to help. Or - and you're going to love (hate) this one - going to try and stop the fighting with the Vajra. Regardless of what you think of the plan, or what happened, were her motivations self-centred?

Does she have moments of self-centredness? Sure. It's only human. Most characters in the series have several such moments.
Things like congratulating others on a test well done is normal social behaviour. I am not saying that Ranka is antisocial. However, she demonstrates a quite stunning disregard for Altos motivations and deeper knowledge about him until very late in the series ( the very moment she decides to leave Frontier, to be exact ). That is something quite unsettling, if one is to take her "love" for Alto seriously. I think I know the difference between a crush and being in love ( having been in both situations, first one quite more than the other ), and Ranka exhibited all symptons of having a crush on Alto.

And, yeah, she did evolve until a certain point, which is about to the half-way of the series. It is at episode 19 where she begins to backslide in a BIG way. She leaves the president hanging to chase after Ai-kun, decides that EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ALTO, totally loses it because she finds Alto holding Sheryl ( which couldnīt have been because Sheryl had fainting spells... oh, wait, it was! ) and suddenly she just cannot sing anymore for the people of Frontier... although she herself had said before that she wanted to do just that. She has a total null-reaction to her best friend being injured in front of her. How exactly is that not self-centered? How does that not lack empathy?

Grmbl. I see I still got a lot rage points left, I better make a willpower check before going into a wyrm frenzy. <obscure roleplaying reference inserted >

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Sheryl can elicit a similar response... Orphan girl, never met her parents, raised in a bubble of stardom... and toward the end the tragic, falling star who's also dying. So who's to say that his feelings for Sheryl are any different than those for Ranka?
Itīs definitely a matter of interpretation. I think I got clear signs that his feelings for Sheryl are romantic and true love. And you believe that he also loves Ranka romantically, while I regard his feelings for her to be love of a "best friend / big brother" kind.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Irony.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
And what were those?

Ranka makes a point very early on that one of the reasons she likes Alto is that he listens to her. That can mean a lot to someone.
Yeah, it can. Itīs also another notch in the "Ranka doesnīt care to get to know Alto" argument.

As for Sheryls motivations, Iīd say she first liked that Alto didnīt treat her like a celebrity. They both developed a deeper both in episode six, when they both found out that they didnīt like their respective homes. Sheryl did interest herself for Alto to find out that he was a kabuki actor, as evidenced in episode 10. She remembered that Alto wanted to fly in a real sky, which is from where she got the idea to take him with her to Gallia IV, she exhausted herself almost into fainting, wanting to give him his present in episode 12.... itīs simply that she cares about his feelings and desires.

Iīm sure Ranka wants him to be happy, too, but I think she approaches it from the wrong perspective, i.e "Alto would be most happy by being with me!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Bring them up if you want to. I'm sure trying to say anything to the contrary will be like talking to a wall, but...
I donīt think you want to get me really started. Iīve already written a mountain about all the issues I have in this reply alone, if Iīd go after every problem I have in detail... well, one other day, maybe. I got more free time after Thursday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
But she does ask. Ergo she is interested. Who cares about the timeline. Time, opportunity and circumstance can all play roles.
Erm, the timeline is quite important in the Sheryl / Alto / Ranka triangle. Asking the first real personal question at the very moment you decide to leave is not what Iīd call good judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Y'know...it kinda sounds to me like everyone decided they hated Ranka, and then scrutinized everything she did in the absolute worst possible light they could.

This is not a discussion, this is just a reiteration of points the Ranka-Haters have agreed on. It's like talking to a group of Fundamentalists.

As such, I'm done.
Now, that is fundamentally unfair, Gubaba. Itīs not us who suddenly decided to give a broadside wall-of-text point-by-point refutal of every single thing said yesterday, but Snowblind. Do you blame us for simply responding to his points? Iīve tried to make my points cogently and from a standpoint of analysis of the series ( where I can... obviously things like my distinctions between a crush and true love come from personal experiences ).

Ranka simply stands out as the most fallible of the characters. Since her decisions negatively affected so many people on Frontier and since the series in the end doesnīt clean up her act ( as notably, it does with all the other main characters ), she receives a great share of negative scrutiny. The triangle ending is just the dessert on top of that, although a hugely irritating one for me, personally.


BTW, people, the whole "texting" sillyness has really gone on long enough. The point Gubaba was making is "Hey, I remember she and Alto were texting each other all the time during the early episodes". To which I responded "There were a total of three text messages between over the early episodes and none of them were Alto telling her anything about himself.". I really donīt know what more there is to argue about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I wouldn't call it so much as hate but it just feels like someone stated reasons to not like her and exaggerated it in which everyone else followed. It doesn't help that Ranka is one of the love interests in the series. I just don't buy into most of the reasons that people dislike her for. A difference in opinions..
A reasonable argument. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
True. But hearing regurgitated points for the umpteenth time (when they didn't convince me the first time) doesn't interest me. If it's a real conversation, fine and good. If it's just a list of the talking points, nuh-uh. I've heard 'em, you've heard 'em, why give anyone a chance to spout 'em again?

<snip>
Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
I guess the whole point is hoping that someone on the other side has a lightbulb going off over his head and suddenly understands and accepts the other sides viewpoint.

Not very likely, I know. Iīve been in internet discussions for the last thirteen years, and it is very seldom that someone really changes someones else mind during such a discussion. The last time it happened to me here was when Father Hentai came up with a second workable hypothesis on how pre-planned Rankas flight from Frontier was.

What then is the point of such futility? Exchange of information, of ideas... the simple fun of discussing a series and characters we all like ( or dislike... also a motivation ) very much, with people who also care about our passion.

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
There's something mean and nasty that I thought about saying...but since I recommended restraint before, I guess I gotta put my money where my mouth is, huh?
And why did you think about anything nasty to say? Tak cited factual information, it wasnīt something mean-spirited. Or did you mean something nasty about the chinese fans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Let's put it this way. It's hard to argue here and to get a confirmation you have to clarify every single posting you do. It's extremely hard and mostly it ends ups ending in wall of texts just like Snowblind currently.

So? Is it too much to ask that people make clear arguments? It only ever gets this heated when both sides get into the nitty-gritty of the character motivations and dig trenches. To my mind, discussions like this can be solved with good character analysis. Iīve presented my arguments, now the other side has the chance to refute them, if they can. Simple as that.

Look, nobody here should attack someones statement of "I like Ranka". But if someone comes in and says "I like Ranka and I think she totally understood what makes Alto tick!" ( just a random example ), then this person sets her/himself up for an argument, because quite a lot of people disagree with this.
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Old 2009-07-21, 04:51   Link #1796
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Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
THAT'S what I've been saying. W.O.T. Waste Of Time. Nothing. There is nothing to be gained from all of it aside from the itsy bitsy fact that you have just wasted your time.

But get this, me saying that all of this is a waste of time will not convince anyone, afterall this is another opinion. hahah
Exactly, regurgitating this argument is just a waste of time like watching the Endless Eight arc in Haruhi season 2. Let's all cross epeens in Princess Lover instead.
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Old 2009-07-21, 05:10   Link #1797
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Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Exactly, regurgitating this argument is just a waste of time like watching the Endless Eight arc in Haruhi season 2. Let's all cross epeens in Princess Lover instead.
Pfuegh. Bad animation and barely interesting characters.
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Old 2009-07-21, 05:35   Link #1798
Father Hentai
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I wasn't talking about the beginning of the series. I am talking about the series as a whole.
Well you can follow her self-centered characteristics until the moment she got dumped by Grace. Just remember how often she said "Watashi wa Sheryl (Nome)".
I guess my mistake here is that I wrote "early stage".

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Iīm sure Ranka wants him to be happy, too, but I think she approaches it from the wrong perspective, i.e "Alto would be most happy by being with me!".
I think your example is wrong because Ranka tried the opposite: "What do I need to do to make Alto happy". Remember again on her conversation with Alto when her career was moving forward? How often did she reasked herself and Alto if that what she does is correct (or to go further and put a theory she tried to say "Do you like the way I go, Alto?"

The example you make does fit more to a person like Sheryl who has a lot of self confidence but as Rankas characteristics is more passive and introvert until episode 21 (I refer now to Star date where she confessed to Alto and what she really desired but was never to reach him (because he was dull)) it does not match to the green haired moe of the series.



Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
So? Is it too much to ask that people make clear arguments? It only ever gets this heated when both sides get into the nitty-gritty of the character motivations and dig trenches. To my mind, discussions like this can be solved with good character analysis. Iīve presented my arguments, now the other side has the chance to refute them, if they can. Simple as that.

Look, nobody here should attack someones statement of "I like Ranka". But if someone comes in and says "I like Ranka and I think she totally understood what makes Alto tick!" ( just a random example ), then this person sets her/himself up for an argument, because quite a lot of people disagree with this.
I refer to your own quote, because you mentioned me as an example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Not very likely, I know. Iīve been in internet discussions for the last thirteen years, and it is very seldom that someone really changes someones else mind during such a discussion. The last time it happened to me here was when Father Hentai came up with a second workable hypothesis on how pre-planned Rankas flight from Frontier was.
And yes it is hard to convince the few people here who are of different opinions especially if you have to write against 3 or more people. It took me half a night to at least concinve one person!!!
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2009-07-21 at 05:55.
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Old 2009-07-21, 06:03   Link #1799
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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
Well you can follow her self-centered characteristics until the moment she got dumped by Grace. Just remember how often she said "Watashi wa Sheryl (Nome)".
Thatīs "self-confidence", not "self-centeredness". Two different things.

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Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
I think your example is wrong because Ranka tried the opposite: "What do I need to do to make Alto happy". Remember again on her conversation with Alto when her career was moving forward? How often did she reasked herself and Alto if that what she does is correct (or to go further and put a theory she tried to say "Do you like the way I go, Alto?"
Could you do me the favour and make a detailed research of such moments? I really donīt have the time at the moment to do a research for the whole series, since I got an exam on Thursday coming up. But I think you are quite wrong on this count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
The example you make does fit more to a person like Sheryl who has a lot of self confidence but as Rankas characteristics is more passive and introvert until episode 21 (I refer now to Star date where she confessed to Alto and what she really desired but was never to reach him (because he was dull)) it does not match to the green haired moe of the series.
I fear I cannot discern what your point is. Could you reformulate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Hentai View Post
And yes it is hard to convince the few people here who are of different opinions especially if you have to write against 3 or more people. It took me half a night to at least concinve one person!!!
But if you manage, it is deeply satisfying.
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Old 2009-07-21, 06:14   Link #1800
Swampstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Still, nothing new was said, all the points are old points. What's to be gained from continuing it?
It takes two people to hold an argument. If the discussion is still going on, then there are at least two people who are interested in it. Let them work it out between themselves - there are plenty of other topics, and plenty of other people whom you can talk to.

What bothers me moreso is the meta-discussion in this thread. Some of these generalizations are getting increasingly tiresome, especially when they don't even apply to the majority of fans. If you've got a problem with specific posts or a specific poster, I'd much rather you resolve things with the person(s) in question instead of blasting everyone who has a vaguely similar preference in characters. Check your soapbox in at the door.

I may be abstaining from the present discussion, but that doesn't mean that I concur with what's being said. I think the same holds true for many of us.
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