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Old 2009-08-12, 13:40   Link #1861
Kylegoblue
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
No, of course not. But if you put something like "Neither Sheryl nor Alto did habe much growth of character" ( paraphrasing here ) into the room, and you get arguments against that, at least try to adress those points.

As for the second topic, about how the characters just play out like the creators intended for the story, well, I already said that my viewpoint is totally different. I prefer to judge a character by how that character developed in the storyline, applying common sense modifiers against his actions.

Assuming that a character behaved stupidly, just because the story had to move forward, doesnīt cut it with me. Since all the other characters in Macross Frontier did not exhibit this behaviour, Ranka stands out and gets that much of a bigger share of criticism from me.
Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion just as I'm entitled to mine. None of them grew very much in my opinion but that's all it is. It's not a statement of fact (obviously).

Ever heard the saying "common sense ain't that common"? or "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." ?

What seems like common sense to you may not to another. Sense you don't know what Ranka was thinking or what she knew or suspected (none of us do), how can you judge her so harshly?

Hmm, no one else behaved stupidly in MF. Let me get back to you on that one...

Ok I'm back. Picking a fight with a cyborg as a normal human being may qualify.
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Old 2009-08-12, 15:02   Link #1862
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Likewise, then.

I'm sorry if that's how it seems, but I assure you it's not the case. I've always tried to keep the tone polite - discussing anime isn't so important to me that I'm going to get upset over it - and I've simply tried to reply as I've been spoken to. I've never spoken down to anyone, I've never questioned anyone's intelligence, I've never been intentionally rude, I've tried to address everything in a factual manner and cite references to the series and real world where applicable, and I've remained calm and conducted my replies with an even tone. I don't see that as being hostile, but if it is, I'm sorry.
Maybe if you woudnīt lead off many posts with "Eeeeeh?"s and such stuff it would come off better. This tends to make your posts seem belligerent to me. What you wrote just now looked much better in comparison.

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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I can't see how that contributes to Ranka's fault here. As I said in my previous post, no one seems to know what goes wrong in Ranka's song. Sheryl doesn't know it is the problem of emotion...Luca thinks they need a speaker XD

Why Ranka song works in the next episode? it's either because 1)She is a fast learner, she notices this problem or 2) The seriousness of this incident makes her focus more.

But the reason 1 and 2 don't take away the fact that Ranka did intend to help in the previous episode. And it is especially hard for Ranka when no one ever tells her why her song works...no one tells her that emotion is the key to control those bugs...if she knew that emotion is the key before that episode, then she is partly responsible for letting those bugs go loose..if she didn't know beforehand, which I assume this is the case, then it's hard to criticize her for letting those bugs go loose

So in summary, from my opinion, Ranka gives it 100% in both episodes (during that Vajra's rampage arc) too bad she didn't know how to use her power effectively..but that isn't her fault at all

As for your point b, I seem to remember that I response those viewpoints not so long ago, so I will not make a reply in here
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Eh, I wasn't the one who brought up how much 'harm' Ranka had supposedly caused again. I'm just replying to what I see as factual inaccuracies.

A) Emotional control? Other characters have had similar lapses... Sheryl, Alto, Michael, Ozma... It's human nature. She's not a Vulcan. Sorry. In addition to this, she didn't want to sing - it was Alto and Sheryl that put her up to it. So lets review:
  • She's human (well, mostly). All normal humans (and Zentradi) will have emotional moments (Zentradi moreso, perhaps, if Guld is anything to go by)
  • She didn't want to sing, she was encouraged to sing despite her feelings.
  • As you admit, she (nor anyone anyone else except maybe Grace) was fully aware of how she affected the Vajra at that point
So either she's not to blame for this, or Alto, Sheryl and any other person in her place is equally at fault. Even Sheryl has 'emotional' moments where she doesn't want to sing. She even puts her emotions into her singing. You're expecting the impossible from Ranka.
Iīll let point a.) stand, because this is an honest difference of opinion. To me it seems that Ranka could have gotten the Vajra under control much faster than she did, if she hadnīt been wallowing in self-pity over Alto not, uh... well, whatever she thought he did. Iīm not blaming her for unleashing the Vajra, but I continue to think she could have gotten a hold on herself much, much faster.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
B) It was Brera's decision to leave. Blame him for leaving the fleet 'defenseless' (not that it actually was at that point as you can see from the episodes after he left - Alto, Luca and the NUNS squadron employed effective countermeasures against the Vajra by preventing communication and therefore their 'super evolution').

As for Grace - if Ranka hadn't been involved, then it would have been Sheryl in her place. That's the whole reason she was infected with the v-type virus in the first place.

In neither case was she either directly responsible or more responsible than others for bringing harm or death to anyone.
This is patently untrue, however. It was clearly Rankas decision to leave Frontier. Breras involvement goes as far as either having been told by Ranka to transport her or having figured out her desires on his own and therefore offered at Griffith Park, but Ranka clearly was the one who decided to go.

As for the countermeasures by NUNS, Ranka did not know of them when she left, therefore her actions remain deeply irresponsible.

It can maybe be argued that if Ranka hadnīt come along and when Sheryl would have entered the terminal, then she would have been used, but I think the execution of that would have been up to debate.

As for responsibility, yes, I think there is some for Ranka. Not to the extent of indicting her on criminal charges or the like, but enough that it would have been very nice of the show to acknowledge it, instead of letting her completely off the hook.

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Originally Posted by Kylegoblue View Post
What seems like common sense to you may not to another. Sense you don't know what Ranka was thinking or what she knew or suspected (none of us do), how can you judge her so harshly?
Because in many cases we do know what she was thinking.
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Last edited by magnuskn; 2009-08-12 at 15:40. Reason: Grammar
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Old 2009-08-12, 15:24   Link #1863
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
B) It was Brera's decision to leave. Blame him for leaving the fleet 'defenseless' (not that it actually was at that point as you can see from the episodes after he left - Alto, Luca and the NUNS squadron employed effective countermeasures against the Vajra by preventing communication and therefore their 'super evolution').
No it wasn't. It was Ranka's decision to leave from the start. This idea fostered during her meeting with a growing Ai-kun to the point where she woke Alto up and then pleading with Alto to go with her.

Furthermore, Banana did not force her to go, in fact, he was very willing to do whatever she desired and it was her desire to leave, not his. So I have no idea where you get the notion that it was Banana's decision to leave.

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Old 2009-08-12, 16:08   Link #1864
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
More or less what I think as well. I will add one minor quibble, though... In episode 22 or 23 Ranka does make it clear that she left to try and stop the fighting.
While Ranka tries to tell the Vajra in episode twenty-three that she wants to make it so that both sides don't have to fight, it's unclear whether this was her intention from the start, given that she gives Alto a completely different reason, that is, to return Ai to his family.

From the standpoint of the timeline, it's certainly possible that on further reflection, Ranka decided on this broader ideal of forging peace between the two species. But even still, the audience is left out of the loop as to how this transition came about.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That said, I donīt really get how you see the preceding discussion being about morality. Characters having development and overcoming personal flaws may be about their morality, but in the case of Macross Frontier, the characters morality isn't the main theme of the show.
The reason that I bring up the issue of "morality" is because poetic justice isn't all that important to the series. On some level, yes, the villains do get their comeuppance. But you can hardly expect every character in the series to go through punishment and reform for their missteps. This is applies all the moreso if the writers aren't specifically trying to make a statement that a certain behavior is "bad".

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
As for your assertion about that overcoming character flaws is not essential for character development, I cannot concur. A character which does not change is static.
Keep in mind that what a person declares as a "flaw" depends on their own point of view. So if I consider all of these vices to be virtues, would that make your dynamic characters static?

The keyword is "change", whether it appears to be for the better or for the worse (from our individual frames of reference). Given that "coming of age" stories are so popular, these changes are often along the lines of "self-improvement" as societal norms dictate. But characters don't necessarily need to be written that way to be dynamic.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Bwuh? Where exactly was it shown that Ranka thinks Alto is using her as a tool to fight the Vajra? I mean, like, at all?
Episodes twenty and twenty-one. When Alto asks her to fight the Vajra, she thinks back to all of her feelings for Alto up until that point and starts crying, telling him that she's not a tool to fight the Vajra.

In episode twenty-one, Alto tells her that he'll defend the spot where she'll sing and takes off, at which point Brera tells Ranka that she doesn't have to sing if she doesn't want to. Here too she breaks down - these are words that she would have really needed to hear from Alto. The primary rift between the two, as far as Ranka is concerned, is that she sees her role in protecting Frontier as intertwined with her relationship with Alto, whereas Alto sees the two as being distinct.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Ranka, due to her inability to control her feelings, unleashed the wrath of a million Vaijra on Macross Frontier, when she couldnīt comprehend the fact of the possibility that Sheryl had a dizzy spell and therefore landed in Altos arms.
Keep in mind that the Zerg Vajra were already in ur base killing ur d00ds. Ranka just sped up the process some.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Her fleeing Frontier with Brera was deeply, deeply irresponsible.
"Sorry, but she's not an adult... she's a man!" Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Maybe if you woudnīt lead off many posts with "Eeeeeh?"s and such stuff it would come off better. This tends to make your posts seem belligerent to me. What you wrote just now looked much better in comparison.
To be fair, you did open a reply to me with "Bwuh?" But fear not, I took it as a kindly "Bwuh?"

I'm sure Snow intended it the same way.
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Old 2009-08-12, 16:14   Link #1865
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Maybe if you woudnīt lead off many posts with "Eeeeeh?"s and such stuff it would come off better. This tends to make your posts seem belligerent to me. What you wrote just now looked much better in comparison.
That's not hostility, for the record. That's a questioning type of confusion. O.o Just picture me with a puzzled look on my face when you read that. (Edit: And yes, as Swampstorm said - it's not all that different from a 'Bwuh?' it would seem. )

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Iīll let point a.) stand, because this is an honest difference of opinion. To me it seems that Ranka could have gotten the Vajra under control much faster than she did, if she hadnīt been wallowing in self-pity over Alto not, uh... well, whatever she thought he did. Iīm not blaming her for unleashing the Vajra, but I continue to think she could have gotten a hold on herself much, much faster.
That's fine. I happen to agree that she probably overreacted to what she saw. My only point was that it's entirely human to be emotional - we all have things that set us off. I just don't think that she can be accused of bringing harm to people here.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
This is patently untrue, however. It was clearly Rankas decision to leave Frontier. Breras involvement goes as far as either having been told by Ranka to transport her or having figured out her desires on his own and therefore offered at Griffith Park, but Ranka clearly was the one who decided to go.
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
No it wasn't. It was Ranka's decision to leave from the start. This idea fostered during her meeting with a growing Ai-kun to the point where she woke Alto up and then pleading with Alto to go with her.

Furthermore, Banana did not force her to go, in fact, he was very willing to do whatever she desired and it was her desire to leave, not his. So I have no idea where you get the notion that it was Banana's decision to leave.
Alright, my fault here for not actually finishing my my thought. I had meant to add another statement here, but forgot to included it when getting into the countermeasures.

I didn't mean to imply that it was Brera's idea to leave, only that he was asked to leave and decided to leave. Ranka wasn't holding a gun to his head and forcing him to leave, ergo he has just as much responsibility for leaving. If Brera had been forced, then yes, blame lies entirely with whoever applied the force.

Like I said, my fault for not finishing my thought there, sorry.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
As for the countermeasures by NUNS, Ranka did not know of them when she left, therefore her actions remain deeply irresponsible.
Not going to debate the merits or faults of her plan - there were definitely both - I was just taking issue with the statement that she caused harm and death. The fact that there were countermeasures means that the fleet was capable of defending itself without her, whether she knew it or not. Ergo it was pretty much business as normal for the Frontier fleet. The Macross Quarter crew leaving arguably did far, far more to hurt the defenses of Frontier (depriving the fleet of one superduper fighter vs many very, very good fighters and a very powerful capital ship). Ranka's intentions, no matter how bad the plan may have been, were good, as were those of the Quarter's crew.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
It can maybe be argued that if Ranka hadnīt come along and when Sheryl would have entered the terminal, then she would have been used, but I think the execution of that would have been up to debate.
Eh, we'll never really know here. Sheryl still trusted Grace (and at this point none of the characters except Leon had reason to mistrust her, so it's quite understandable) as a friend and confidant up until Grace's rather brutal dumping of her at the hospital.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
As for responsibility, yes, I think there is some for Ranka. Not to the extent of indicting her on criminal charges or the like, but enough that it would have been very nice of the show to acknowledge it, instead of letting her completely off the hook.
This depends on whether or not she was actually guilty of anything. Looking at everything that happened, I don't think she was any more responsible for events than any of the other protagonists. She had her failings, sure, but at least one other character played a similar role. Sometimes it seems as though Ranka is judged by different standards than any of the other main characters.

Last edited by Snowblind; 2009-08-12 at 16:18. Reason: quote fixing
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Old 2009-08-12, 16:20   Link #1866
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
The reason that I bring up the issue of "morality" is because poetic justice isn't all that important to the series. On some level, yes, the villains do get their comeuppance. But you can hardly expect every character in the series to go through punishment and reform for their missteps. This is applies all the moreso if the writers aren't specifically trying to make a statement that a certain behavior is "bad".
Iīm not even interested in poetic justice. I want acknowledgment, nothing else. Something that indicates that Ranka understood that her actions were not ideal, that what she did was not the best way to go. We never got that.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Keep in mind that what a person declares as a "flaw" depends on their own point of view. So if I consider all of these vices to be virtues, would that make your dynamic characters static?
Iīm working from a general standpoint of what is considered to be good or bad. If you can point me to a modern society which values indecision, selfishness, rudeness, etc etc.. you know, the points which I brought up, then we can talk. Japanese society, which is the mayor influence for Macross Frontier, certainly does not.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
The keyword is "change", whether it appears to be for the better or for the worse (from our individual frames of reference). Given that "coming of age" stories are so popular, these changes are often along the lines of "self-improvement" as societal norms dictate. But characters don't necessarily need to be written that way to be dynamic.
No, of course not. But ithere are many viable and acceptable ways of advancing a character. I just wanted to point out that you canīt pin it down to one aspect.

I certainly believe that the vast mayority of characters in Macross Frontier overcame their own limitations. Ranka stands out as the one who did not advance very far.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Episodes twenty and twenty-one. When Alto asks her to fight the Vajra, she thinks back to all of her feelings for Alto up until that point and starts crying, telling him that she's not a tool to fight the Vajra.

In episode twenty-one, Alto tells her that he'll defend the spot where she'll sing and takes off, at which point Brera tells Ranka that she doesn't have to sing if she doesn't want to. Here too she breaks down - these are words that she would have really needed to hear from Alto. The primary rift between the two, as far as Ranka is concerned, is that she sees her role in protecting Frontier as intertwined with her relationship with Alto, whereas Alto sees the two as being distinct.
Hm, okay, I clearly forgot about the scene on the rooftop. I was thinking about the episodes further ahead. I submit to your superior analysis.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Keep in mind that the Vajra were already in ur base killing ur d00ds. Ranka just sped up the process some.
True. I could go an spiel about how not turning in Ai-kun much sooner could have saved Frontier from what happened, but thatīs beside the point here.

Of course weīll never know what would have happened if Ranka would have continued to be happy for some more weeks... would the young Vajra been discovered and the situation handled in a better way? Letīs just say that even Grace was surprised.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
"She's not an adult, she's a man!" Oh wait.
Well, Ozma had extenuating circunstances as a defense. Ranka did not have to fear that a hit squad from Leon would come after her.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
To be fair, you did open a reply to me with "Bwuh?" But fear not, I took it as a kindly "Bwuh?"
As it was intended.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
This depends on whether or not she was actually guilty of anything. Looking at everything that happened, I don't think she was any more responsible for events than any of the other protagonists. She had her failings, sure, but at least one other character played a similar role. Sometimes it seems as though Ranka is judged by different standards than any of the other main characters.
Absolutely not, rather the contrary. I am judging her on the merits how Iīd judge the other characters. Itīs not my fault the others finish so far ahead ( or better said, Ranka so much behind ). Ippus said it very well a few pages ago, nobody ( besides Michael one time ) ever ever calls her on her self-absorption. Sheryl and Alto get called out for their behavior many times in the series and have to adapt and evolve. Ranka does not and actually regresses in her behaviour from episode 18 onward.
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Old 2009-08-12, 16:33   Link #1867
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post

Alright, my fault here for not actually finishing my my thought. I had meant to add another statement here, but forgot to included it when getting into the countermeasures.

I didn't mean to imply that it was Brera's idea to leave, only that he was asked to leave and decided to leave. Ranka wasn't holding a gun to his head and forcing him to leave, ergo he has just as much responsibility for leaving. If Brera had been forced, then yes, blame lies entirely with whoever applied the force.

Like I said, my fault for not finishing my thought there, sorry.
I think she would have tried to get off of Frontier to the Planet through a different means regardless. But that's really just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Not going to debate the merits or faults of her plan - there were definitely both - I was just taking issue with the statement that she caused harm and death. The fact that there were countermeasures means that the fleet was capable of defending itself without her, whether she knew it or not. Ergo it was pretty much business as normal for the Frontier fleet. The Macross Quarter crew leaving arguably did far, far more to hurt the defenses of Frontier (depriving the fleet of one superduper fighter vs many very, very good fighters and a very powerful capital ship). Ranka's intentions, no matter how bad the plan may have been, were good, as were those of the Quarter's crew.
Rather then hurting the Defense of Frontier, it Boosted the Offense of the Vajra. Which still leads to the same type of situation.

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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
This depends on whether or not she was actually guilty of anything. Looking at everything that happened, I don't think she was any more responsible for events than any of the other protagonists. She had her failings, sure, but at least one other character played a similar role. Sometimes it seems as though Ranka is judged by different standards than any of the other main characters.
Judged by different standards? I don't really think so. She just seems to be the one most brought up. Ranka had already accepted the responsibility of singing against the Vajra before both those situations. Regardless of whether or not Alto or Sheryl had persuaded her into Singing, she already had the duty. She should not have accepted the Duty in the first place willingly then. This may be alittle crude of an example but think of it as a pet. Ranka accepted the responsibility of helping the pet but then decides she doesn't want to because she's heartbroken. Her friends tell her to help the pet, but in reality it does worse. The pet then dies. It is still Ranka's Fault. Her friends were just trying her to get her to do the responsibilities she accepted.

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-08-12 at 16:47.
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Old 2009-08-12, 19:12   Link #1868
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
I think she would have tried to get off of Frontier to the Planet through a different means regardless. But that's really just a thought.
Probably. She also asked Alto, after all. But that's beside the point... the argument was that she was responsible for hurting the defense of Frontier by taking Brera away. She's no more at fault than Brera.

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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Rather then hurting the Defense of Frontier, it Boosted the Offense of the Vajra. Which still leads to the same type of situation.
Eh, not so much. I like lists, so I'm gonna list stuff:
  • Ranka was under Grace's influence - she wasn't helping by choice.
  • If it hadn't been Ranka, it would have been Sheryl. Like I said before, that's why Sheryl was infected in the first place. It wasn't by some great insight on Sheryl's part that saved her, it was Grace finding someone with a more powerful influence on the Vajra.
  • The Vajra were defending their own homeworld. Combat was going to be vicious either way.
  • There was a full fledged Vajra queen there to control them anyway. The only thing Ranka was used for was to give Grace control of the queen. See the above points on this as well.
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Judged by different standards? I don't really think so. She just seems to be the one most brought up.
That was a general statement - not really directed at any one specific event. For example:
  • Ranka gets blamed for knowing about Ai - well, yes, but so did Alto, Nanase, and even Michael - they never get mentioned
  • Ranka gets blamed for not wanting to sing in ep 20 because she was distraught - okay, fine, Sheryl wanted to quit singing until Alto convinced her to - no so different
  • Ranka gets blamed for not being able to control her emotions when singing for the Vajra - except that she said she was in no condition to sing and only did so after Alto and Sheryl convinced her to
  • Ranka gets blamed for deserting Frontier to go off on her own mission - sure, and so did Ozma and the Quarter Crew. Ozma even goes as far to point out that they're doing the same thing as Ranka (see his speech to Alto when the Quarter is fighting its way free) - yet Ranka is making an immature decision and the Quarter crew are doing the right thing
  • Ranka gets blamed for taking Brera away - yet Brera agreed to go so he's equally responsible. Besides, he was still under Grace's control at that point - he was only an ally to the Frontier as long as it was convenient for Grace. It was Ranka that started to shake Grace's control over him.
It all looks like a double standard to me. Just about all the characters have their list of mistakes and flaws, but at most they get a gentle chiding and Ranka gets vilified. Ranka isn't perfect, but neither are any of the other characters.

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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Ranka had already accepted the responsibility of singing against the Vajra before both those situations. Regardless of whether or not Alto or Sheryl had persuaded her into Singing, she already had the duty. She should not have accepted the Duty in the first place willingly then. This may be alittle crude of an example but think of it as a pet. Ranka accepted the responsibility of helping the pet but then decides she doesn't want to because she's heartbroken. Her friends tell her to help the pet, but in reality it does worse. The pet then dies. It is still Ranka's Fault. Her friends were just trying her to get her to do the responsibilities she accepted.
Ehhhhh?*
(*Disclaimer: 'Ehhhhh?' is in no way meant to be hostile. It's an expression of puzzlement only. )

I don't really think that's a fair analogy. When you're basically told that you're the only one who can help - but no one is really sure how you're helping - then being unsure and making mistakes along the way are par for the course. So she's blamed for wanting to help, and then blamed for not helping when she's in no condition to help, and then blamed again for trying to suck it up and help... Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't, damned if she does... again? O.o
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:01   Link #1869
Foreshadow
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'Scuse me... Before everyone jumps on the Ranka bashing wagon again... Where did her actions bring pain and death any more than many other characters in the series? O.o List please.
Heres your list
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Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Eh, not so much. I like lists, so I'm gonna list stuff:
  • Ranka was under Grace's influence - she wasn't helping by choice.
  • If it hadn't been Ranka, it would have been Sheryl. Like I said before, that's why Sheryl was infected in the first place. It wasn't by some great insight on Sheryl's part that saved her, it was Grace finding someone with a more powerful influence on the Vajra.
  • The Vajra were defending their own homeworld. Combat was going to be vicious either way.
  • There was a full fledged Vajra queen there to control them anyway. The only thing Ranka was used for was to give Grace control of the queen. See the above points on this as well.
That was a general statement - not really directed at any one specific event. For example:
  • Ranka gets blamed for knowing about Ai - well, yes, but so did Alto, Nanase, and even Michael - they never get mentioned
  • Ranka gets blamed for not wanting to sing in ep 20 because she was distraught - okay, fine, Sheryl wanted to quit singing until Alto convinced her to - no so different
  • Ranka gets blamed for not being able to control her emotions when singing for the Vajra - except that she said she was in no condition to sing and only did so after Alto and Sheryl convinced her to
  • Ranka gets blamed for deserting Frontier to go off on her own mission - sure, and so did Ozma and the Quarter Crew. Ozma even goes as far to point out that they're doing the same thing as Ranka (see his speech to Alto when the Quarter is fighting its way free) - yet Ranka is making an immature decision and the Quarter crew are doing the right thing
  • Ranka gets blamed for taking Brera away - yet Brera agreed to go so he's equally responsible. Besides, he was still under Grace's control at that point - he was only an ally to the Frontier as long as it was convenient for Grace. It was Ranka that started to shake Grace's control over him.
It all looks like a double standard to me. Just about all the characters have their list of mistakes and flaws, but at most they get a gentle chiding and Ranka gets vilified. Ranka isn't perfect, but neither are any of the other characters.
Notice that the people who are the "accomplices" Are only listed on your list once, Just because other people were involved doesn't mean it's not Ranka's Fault.
Of course none of the characters are perfect. Where is anybody saying that they are? The difference between the other characters and Ranka are, They Grew, Ranka continued to get Bailed out time after time.

I don't think Ranka ever got blamed for taking Brera away. No one really cares about him on Frontier anyway. Macross quarter went to get Information on the Vajra and Grace so that it could benefit the entire fleet. Ranka left to bring Ai kun back to the Vajra. Not quite the same thing. Read the rest of the thread if you want responses to those bullet points, They've definitely been addressed before. (Better then I can anyway)

So your basically blaming people who had to urge Ranka into her duty for trying to get her to do the responsibilities she accepted.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Fairy Project deemed a failure anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
Ehhhhh?*
(*Disclaimer: 'Ehhhhh?' is in no way meant to be hostile. It's an expression of puzzlement only. )

I don't really think that's a fair analogy. When you're basically told that you're the only one who can help - but no one is really sure how you're helping - then being unsure and making mistakes along the way are par for the course. So she's blamed for wanting to help, and then blamed for not helping when she's in no condition to help, and then blamed again for trying to suck it up and help... Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't, damned if she does... again? O.o
Yes, Basically. She accepts the agreement. Then backs out on it right when it matters. Has to get urged to do it. Maybe that was a bad analogy. Actually it probably was - It's really not Sheryl or Alto's Fault that incident Happened. They only asked her to Honor her agreement when she didn't want to. Sheryl had no such Agreement until After Ranka ditched. And She also willingly did her part.

100% of that post was in the thread already. Read that if you want other points of view. I felt that I should respond because you put the effort in to respond to me. If that came across as Mean, sorry, I have a migraine now though. I'm going to go law down.

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-08-22 at 00:26.
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:20   Link #1870
Snowblind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Notice that the people who are the "accomplices" Are only listed on your list once, Just because other people were involved doesn't mean it's not Ranka's Fault.
Of course none of the characters are perfect. Where is anybody saying that they are? The difference between the other characters and Ranka are, They Grew, Ranka continued to get Bailed out time after time.
Actually - not so much. Alto is listed 3 times, Sheryl 2 times, and it was a list addressing Ranka. They have their own issues not involving her. Nice try, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
I don't think Ranka ever got blamed for taking Brera away. No one really cares about him on Frontier anyway.
See above. Magnuskn mentioned it, so I threw it in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Macross quarter went to get Information on the Vajra and Grace so that it could benefit the entire fleet. Ranka left to bring Ai kun back to the Vajra. Not quite the same thing.
...and try to negotiate some sort of peaceful resolution. See episode 23 where she says as much. And Ozma makes the case that they are the same thing as he's leaving with the Quarter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Yes, Basically. She accepts the agreement. Then backs out on it right when it matters.
Except for those times she flew out in the middle of combat to sing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
...It's really not Sheryl or Alto's Fault that incident Happened. They only asked her to Honor her agreement when she didn't want to. ...
It's no one's fault. That's just it. She was in no emotional condition to sing, so even if she'd snapped to and sang the result would have been the same. In the end she did sing, and see what happened? At worst she can be faulted for being upset, which I addressed earlier. Happens to everyone once in awhile, I should think. That it happened then and there was just a plot device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
... I felt that I should respond because you put the effort in to respond to me. I have a migraine now though. I'm going to go law down.
Thanks for taking the time. Hope you're feeling better soon.

Last edited by Snowblind; 2009-08-12 at 20:22. Reason: Removed point to reduce length
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:24   Link #1871
justavisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowblind View Post
...and try to negotiate some sort of peaceful resolution. See episode 23 where she says as much. And Ozma makes the case that they are the same thing as he's leaving with the Quarter.
Damn you beat me by a sec Snowblind ...I was going to say the same thing to Foreshadow's post...it's hard to argue in here...it's like there are two different Rankas in the series...it's really hard to discuss when both sides can't even agree with what the character is doing in the series
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:39   Link #1872
DeX-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
While Ranka tries to tell the Vajra in episode twenty-three that she wants to make it so that both sides don't have to fight, it's unclear whether this was her intention from the start, given that she gives Alto a completely different reason, that is, to return Ai to his family.

From the standpoint of the timeline, it's certainly possible that on further reflection, Ranka decided on this broader ideal of forging peace between the two species. But even still, the audience is left out of the loop as to how this transition came about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
Macross quarter went to get Information on the Vajra and Grace so that it could benefit the entire fleet. Ranka left to bring Ai kun back to the Vajra. Not quite the same thing.
Although it is slightly vague as to what her intention was for leaving Frontier, I do believe that she had been thinking about making peace with the Vajra for quite a while. If you pay attention to the conversation between Alto and Ranka after Alto opens up to Ranka about his love for the sky, Ranka states "everyone wants to live free, don't they?" Granted, this doesn't make it a fact but I do feel that it's enough to say that Ranka did have the intention to create peace between both races.

The reason for Ranka not telling Alto could very well be because Brera cut her off before she could finish since he then stated that he would be the one to take her, Ranka really wanted Alto to take her so she felt it was the only choice at that moment. Ranka also said that she wanted to at least take Ai back to his home, meaning that there was another reason (most likely being her desire to bring peace) and also her understanding of the danger behind this task.
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:50   Link #1873
Tak
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*Clears throat*

~

神様に恋をしてた頃は こんな別れが来るとは思ってなかったよ

It’s long long good-bye

さよなら さよなら 何度だって
自分に 無上に 言い聞かせて
手を振るのは優しさだよね?
今 強さが欲しい

貴方に出逢い STAR輝いて アタシが生まれて
愛すればこそ iあればこそ
もう二度と離さないで 捕まえてて
ひとりじゃないと 囁いてほしい planet…


~

- Tak (Make peace now... unless you want to see my rendition of Anata no Oto...)
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:57   Link #1874
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
*Clears throat*

~

神様に恋をしてた頃は こんな別れが来るとは思ってなかったよ

It’s long long good-bye

さよなら さよなら 何度だって
自分に 無上に 言い聞かせて
手を振るのは優しさだよね?
今 強さが欲しい

貴方に出逢い STAR輝いて アタシが生まれて
愛すればこそ iあればこそ
もう二度と離さないで 捕まえてて
ひとりじゃないと 囁いてほしい planet…


~

- Tak (Make peace now... unless you want to see my rendition of Anata no Oto...)
Oh god...do you realize that your singing has the same affect as Kotomi's skill in playing the violin
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:58   Link #1875
BetoJR
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I can't believe some people actually think the Quarter crew deserting was actually alright. Did it produce results? Sure. Was it okay? No way, José... What Wylder did, calling Leon out, could have easily been done before - they did not come back with a smoking gun they didn't have before, after all.

Just thought to point that out, as the Ranka discussion seems to be going around in circles, again...
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:58   Link #1876
justavisitor
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lol, come on, this is a ranka thread and you bring a Sheryl's song to here

Well, you don't need to sing, how about just enjoy Ranka's special OP instead?? From alu546:

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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-08-12, 20:59   Link #1877
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O.o

Eep.

I'm done if everyone else is.
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Old 2009-08-12, 21:04   Link #1878
justavisitor
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I am pretty sure the other side has enough from your postXD

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's enjoy the Ranka special OP from my previous post!! (That video is from alu546)
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To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
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Old 2009-08-12, 21:14   Link #1879
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
lol, come on, this is a ranka thread and you bring a Sheryl's song to here
Thats because DC is considered to be a song of world peace amongst a majority of Japanese fans.

- Tak
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Old 2009-08-12, 21:19   Link #1880
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Thats because DC is considered to be a song of world peace amongst a majority of Japanese fans.

- Tak
Peace is good, peace is very good.
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