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Old 2009-08-15, 09:33   Link #1921
justavisitor
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But which part of "running away" do you refer to? From your post, you suggested the funeral scene and the scene where she goes away with Brera

Now, the funeral scene has nothing to do with fight against Vajra...she refuses to sing to ppl but in the last (or the same episode) she sings to control Vajra

In the scene where she goes with Brera...she goes to search possible peace deal...

Because in my opinion, when you say Run away, you seem to be not specific enough, "run away" means many thing, and when you say, "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she ran away" ppl can imagine she runs away because she doesn't want to die and run for her life!!!

That's why I ask you which scene you are referring to..from your post, you gave me the funeral scene and the departure to Vajra's planet scene..now I reply that in both scene, she doesn't show that she rejects her responsibility...in funeral scene, while she refuses to sing to ppl, that doesn't mean she refuses to use her power to stop Vajra as we saw she did it in previous episode...in the departure scene, she goes away to look for peace between both sides...so she is not "running away" from responsibility, which you seem to suggest when you say "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she ran away" ...you can question her "native way of doing things", that's fine, because I've seen other posters say that

But simply use the term "Run away" without further explanation gives others wrong impression in my own opinion
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Old 2009-08-15, 09:45   Link #1922
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Argue over semantics all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that she did, in fact, flee her assumed responsibilities. Not acknowledging these instances is the biggest flaw of the series, and the character, in my opinion.
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:04   Link #1923
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No I am not arguing over semantics...in both scenes that magnuskn mentioned, I explain that running away from responsibility (if that's what magnuskn is referring to) is not the case in both scenes..one can question her away of doing, like lack of planning etc...but running away from responsibility is not reason in both scenes

Simply say "run away" is misleading in anyway you look at it. Well, macross frontier thought she "ran away" to side with Vajra!!..so it's important to explain it further...especially some readers in here may want to check these posts before deciding to watch the series, then they may really think Ranka "runs away" because she doesn't want to die XD
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:13   Link #1924
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
No I am not arguing over semantics...in both scenes that magnuskn mentioned, I explain that running away from responsibility (if that's what magnuskn is referring to) is not the case in both scenes..one can question her away of doing, like lack of planning etc...but running away from responsibility is not reason in both scenes

Simply say "run away" is misleading in anyway you look at it. Well, macross frontier thought she "ran away" to side with Vajra!!..so it's important to explain it further...especially some readers in here may want to check these posts before deciding to watch the series, then they may really think Ranka "runs away" because she doesn't want to die XD
That is one way to look through the scope. What is she running away from in those situations then?
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:28   Link #1925
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lol, I feel like I got lured into a trap, the more I talk, the more mistake I will make (well I am not a lawyer XD) and I sense vultures near by

Anyway, I will have to see whether magnuskn agrees that Ranka goes to find possible peace deal between human and vajra

a) if magnuskn thinks Ranka goes to search for peace, then the sentence should be like: "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she natively goes away to search for peace, forgetting her first and foremost responsibility is to protect the frontier!!"

b) if magnuskn thinks Ranka simply wants to take Ai-kun back to its home planet, then the sentence should be like: "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she natively decides that taking Ai-kun back to its home planet is more important than to protect the frontier!! "

I probably wouldn't have responded if magnuskn replied something similar to the above because both a) and b) are old topics..but saying "run away" all of sudden gives me an impression that Ranka runs away for her life, side with Vajra etc...it gives more bad reputation to Ranka, and she has enough of those already...that's why I wanna make it clearer, especially to readers that never watch the series

Edit: just to complete this essay....if I want to respond, to counter point a) I would argue which way (search for peace or fight against the bug) is more important, and she never runs away from her responsibility
To counter point b) I would argue that simply that is not the case, Ranka goes out (or runs away) to search for peace!!"
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:29   Link #1926
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I find the way she ran away from singing to the survivors a very clear example of fleeing responsibilities - that she accepted beforehand. You don't?

Sure, you can pull the card of "why doesn't anyone care about how she feels" reasoning, but... I don't really care about her feelings at that point. She hurt many people that day, who were only expecting a glimmer of hope from her songs.

Also, by leaving Frontier with Brera, she also skirted her assumed role. Something that Sheryl had to lend a hand with later on, even at the cost of her own life, I might add.
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:29   Link #1927
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Originally Posted by Kylegoblue View Post
I wonder if people like Alto as a romantic lead only because he's the main character and hero of the story, or because they genuinely like his personality. That's a question for another thread though.
Personally, I rather like Alto's characterization. As for any of his romantic prospects, that's much more up in the air - admittedly I don't think that he's quite ready for any kind of relationship as of yet.

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Originally Posted by Kylegoblue View Post
Anyway, people seem to take this discussion pretty personally, and it sounds like this topic has been rehashed a few times already. I can't think of any original topics, but I'd love to get a fresh discussion going.
I agree. Seriously, if you have nothing to contribute to this thread, please refrain from posting.

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So, regarding to this discussion, I just recently watched Macross Frontier for the 2nd time, and dare I say this, I have no idea when there is so much Ranka-hate going on in this board (5:1 for Sheryl:Ranka? WHAT?).
Yeah, it's a real shame that liking one character is somehow connected to necessarily disliking anoter. I suppose that it's a bit inevitable given the structure of the show, but a lot is probably attributed to how well-liked Sheryl is.

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Sure she can be quite immature sometimes in the series but I think that I liked her quite a bit more than Sheryl. Reason is that she seems to be the more cheerful type compared to Sheryl, and Ranka had to bear being basically abused by the Frontier Government as a tool to fight off the vajra for the entirety of the series (I have to remind myself that Ranka was still just a kid when the series started).
While I like Sheryl more than Ranka, I like Ranka a fair bit as well. Some of this like derives from her similarities to Minmay, but I find her to be a rather interesting character in her own right. There's her cheerfulness that you touched upon, but I think that a lot of this stems from her innocence, and her admirable ability to preserve that innocence. This in in turn doesn't come without its negative consequences like the very questionable decisions Ranka made late in the show. But this kind of natural consequence is also what makes characters fuller, and I rather appreciate her for that.

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That is one way to look through the scope. What is she running away from in those situations then?
It's mostly a combination of confusion and naivete. Ranka felt a connection with the Vajra that no-one else did, and that no-one else seemed interested in exploring. She thought that she might be able to communicate with them somehow and settle matters without resorting to killing all of them.
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Old 2009-08-15, 10:44   Link #1928
justavisitor
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
I find the way she ran away from singing to the survivors a very clear example of fleeing responsibilities - that she accepted beforehand. You don't?

Sure, you can pull the card of "why doesn't anyone care about how she feels" reasoning, but... I don't really care about her feelings at that point. She hurt many people that day, who were only expecting a glimmer of hope from her songs.

Also, by leaving Frontier with Brera, she also skirted her assumed role. Something that Sheryl had to lend a hand with later on, even at the cost of her own life, I might add.
And as I said, she sang to stop Vajra in the previous (or the same?) episode, and in the same (or following??) episode, she goes out to search for peace...so in my opinion, she never backs down from her responsibility

And about leaving with Brera, I have continuously used the card "Ranka intends to talk, if there is a deal, good, if not, Brera can take her home" "Grace's interfere is out of Ranka's plan" "reaching peace deal between human and vajra is more important, especially if Ranka plans to go back and defend if the peace deal doesn't go through" etc to suggest that she is not backing away from her duty
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Old 2009-08-15, 11:46   Link #1929
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Fine. Next time an idol (be it in real life or not) on the level that Ranka was in the series ("The Songstress of Hope", right?) skirts on her beneficent shows or appearances, you can always say that she didn't flee her responsibilities or whatever, because, later on (or sometime before), she actually does show up for something... I'm really through with this discussion, anyway. Too much grief for too few rewards, I think.

Let's just agree on this: you have your opinion and I have mine. That way, we both can move on, right? I mean, it's been pretty obvious for quite some time that neither you nor I (or many others) will change our positions - but we always come back to the same points, anyway. Not me, not anymore. Hasta la vista, baby.
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Old 2009-08-15, 11:52   Link #1930
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It's mostly a combination of confusion and naivete. Ranka felt a connection with the Vajra that no-one else did, and that no-one else seemed interested in exploring. She thought that she might be able to communicate with them somehow and settle matters without resorting to killing all of them.
When you put it that way, it seems like Ranka was trying to put the entire world on her shoulders in order to stop the Vajra, not the other way around. I guess I could understand where Ranka was coming from since all her efforts to impress Alto probably just went down the drain.
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Old 2009-08-15, 12:25   Link #1931
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When you put it that way, it seems like Ranka was trying to put the entire world on her shoulders in order to stop the Vajra, not the other way around. I guess I could understand where Ranka was coming from since all her efforts to impress Alto probably just went down the drain.
A couple of points on that:

1. It's less an attempt to stop the Vajra than it is an attempt to communicate with them in some way other than through violence. She doesn't really think in terms of beating them.

2. It's an overstatement to think of Ranka's actions in terms of consciously deciding to do anything grand with the Vajra. Instead, her actions are on the instinct level - she simply felt that she had to do something; and this was what she could come up with. It's a very fitting complement to her character as she's simply too innocent and inexperienced to be able to think much of the bigger picture.
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Old 2009-08-15, 14:27   Link #1932
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Fine. Next time an idol (be it in real life or not) on the level that Ranka was in the series ("The Songstress of Hope", right?) skirts on her beneficent shows or appearances, you can always say that she didn't flee her responsibilities or whatever, because, later on (or sometime before), she actually does show up for something... I'm really through with this discussion, anyway. Too much grief for too few rewards, I think.

Let's just agree on this: you have your opinion and I have mine. That way, we both can move on, right? I mean, it's been pretty obvious for quite some time that neither you nor I (or many others) will change our positions - but we always come back to the same points, anyway. Not me, not anymore. Hasta la vista, baby.
Yes, if that idol in real life constantly has to go the front line to stop the attacks from alien...I will definitely let her have a break when she needs it.

And it's true that we will never convince each other. We also always say that we don't want to discuss the same topic again but we always end up doing the opposite XD. Glad to know that you move on, until the next time when we discuss the same topic all over again XD
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Old 2009-08-15, 16:13   Link #1933
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Where did I say anything like that in my post? We can of course discuss again how responsible Ranka is for this and that, but Iīd think her running away is pretty clear. She did so first at the funeral and then after the chat at Griffith Park with Alto. If you think that she only went for the purest of motives, thatīs your prerogative, of course. My view is not as forgiving, as I surely have demonstrated numerous times.
She ran away at the funeral after refusing to sing that’s in literal sense of course she didn’t run away at the Griffith Park she flew away.
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Old 2009-08-15, 18:03   Link #1934
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lol, I feel like I got lured into a trap, the more I talk, the more mistake I will make (well I am not a lawyer XD) and I sense vultures near by

Anyway, I will have to see whether magnuskn agrees that Ranka goes to find possible peace deal between human and vajra

a) if magnuskn thinks Ranka goes to search for peace, then the sentence should be like: "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she natively goes away to search for peace, forgetting her first and foremost responsibility is to protect the frontier!!"

b) if magnuskn thinks Ranka simply wants to take Ai-kun back to its home planet, then the sentence should be like: "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she natively decides that taking Ai-kun back to its home planet is more important than to protect the frontier!! "
Look, you brought up the whole "did she run away from reponsibility?" deal. To which I respond, she partly did, for the very simple reason that she didnīt want to be used as a weapon against the Vajra anymore. You cannot simplify her reasons to the level where she looks best ( "She went to look for peace with the Vajra, yay!" ), because her motivations seem to be pretty complex if one does look closely. I just watched those episodes again last week, so I think I got a pretty good grasp of the situation.

To try to put it into a cogent argument: Ranka *partly* did leave Frontier to pursue a vague idea that she could communicate with the Vajra and therefore bring about peace between them and humanity. But she *partly* also ran away, because she could not deal with Alto not being in love with her like she wanted him to be, and that she was being used by Leon ( and with Altos consent ) as a weapon against the Vajra.

Of course there are more complications in the fact that Ranka shortly before that moment had declared that she was okay with her song being used against the Vajra, therefore taking on a definite responsibility for the safety of the citizens of Frontier. So, conciously or not, she definitely did run away from that self-assumed responsibility ( kinda like Sarah Palin resigned as the governor of Alaska I kid, I kid.. not even I would sink so low as to compare Ranka to Sarah Palin. ) .

A lot of people, me included, do have a problem with that, because assuming the responsibility for the very lives of a few million people should carry along with it a certain gravity and Ranka did not seem to grasp that concept very well, instead seeming ( to me ) to make it all about Alto.

Her change from "I sing for the people of Frontier" to "I sing for Alto, and Alto alone! Why canīt he hear me?!?" was definitely a change for the worse in terms of her character development.
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Old 2009-08-15, 18:14   Link #1935
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Thanks for making it clearer....I was simply having a problem with that phrase "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she ran away" I just thought it was too simplistic, and it makes Ranka seems like those villains (you know, those typical bad guys who run away when bad situation happens) and we all know Ranka is not like that

once again, thank you for clearing it up
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Old 2009-08-15, 18:19   Link #1936
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Thanks for making it clearer....I was simply having a problem with that phrase "she offered herself to help against the Vajra... and after that she ran away" I just thought it was too simplistic, and it makes Ranka seems like those villains (you know, those typical bad guys who run away when bad situation happens) and we all know Ranka is not like that

once again, thank you for clearing it up
Youīre welcome.
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Old 2009-08-15, 20:38   Link #1937
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To try to put it into a cogent argument: Ranka *partly* did leave Frontier to pursue a vague idea that she could communicate with the Vajra and therefore bring about peace between them and humanity. But she *partly* also ran away, because she could not deal with Alto not being in love with her like she wanted him to be, and that she was being used by Leon ( and with Altos consent ) as a weapon against the Vajra.

Of course there are more complications in the fact that Ranka shortly before that moment had declared that she was okay with her song being used against the Vajra, therefore taking on a definite responsibility for the safety of the citizens of Frontier. So, conciously or not, she definitely did run away from that self-assumed responsibility ( kinda like Sarah Palin resigned as the governor of Alaska I kid, I kid.. not even I would sink so low as to compare Ranka to Sarah Palin. ) .

A lot of people, me included, do have a problem with that, because assuming the responsibility for the very lives of a few million people should carry along with it a certain gravity and Ranka did not seem to grasp that concept very well, instead seeming ( to me ) to make it all about Alto.

Her change from "I sing for the people of Frontier" to "I sing for Alto, and Alto alone! Why canīt he hear me?!?" was definitely a change for the worse in terms of her character development.
I think I'll have to kindly disagree with this statement about Ranka running away because Alto didn't love her. I'm pretty sure that she didn't go flying off because Alto didn't love her the way she wanted. Going back to the scene where Ai-kun molted in front of Ranka and finally realizing that Ai was actually a Vajra, this is where her memories kick in and like she claimed, she began to regain her memory and realized how much of a connection she had to the Vajra. Kind of like what 4Tran said, it was an instinct.

Ranka's idea to bring Ai-kun back and creating peace with the Vajra coincide with each other because it happened in that instant. If it wasn't for the molting, I believe that Ranka would not have gone to the Vajra home world. All of this stems back to Ai-kun and Ranka's realization of what he actually was, it's actually deeper than "Alto doesn't love me so I'm going to use Brera and Ai-kun as an excuse to run away from this pain." We got no hint of Ranka wanting to do this until she impulsively decided to bring Ai-kun back and try to create peace with the Vajra. I'm not excusing Ranka in anyway for leaving Frontier but I certainly don't blame her for making that decision considering her circumstances.
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Old 2009-08-15, 20:38   Link #1938
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A lot of people, me included, do have a problem with that, because assuming the responsibility for the very lives of a few million people should carry along with it a certain gravity and Ranka did not seem to grasp that concept very well, instead seeming ( to me ) to make it all about Alto.

Her change from "I sing for the people of Frontier" to "I sing for Alto, and Alto alone! Why canīt he hear me?!?" was definitely a change for the worse in terms of her character development.
It seems that regarding to this part, Alto simply didn't notice/ignored Ranka's effort and focused almost all of his efforts onto taking care of Sheryl instead. Personally that was a change in worse for the development of Alto as well. When you have a responsibility to protect a few million people, a person has to have the motivation to do so. Unfortunately, Ranka's motivation was Alto's acceptance of Ranka, and seeing that this motivation was crushed in an instant, I probably understood why Ranka 'ran away" from Frontier in the first place.

btw stop justifying Sheryl here this is a Ranka thread.
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Old 2009-08-15, 20:51   Link #1939
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btw stop justifying Sheryl here this is a Ranka thread.
There's a very easy way for that to happen: don't feed/start discussions about Sheryl here, if you're uncomfortable with it. I also find it unbecoming, since it almost implies there cannot be a discussion of one character without the other.
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Old 2009-08-16, 03:52   Link #1940
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I think I'll have to kindly disagree with this statement about Ranka running away because Alto didn't love her. I'm pretty sure that she didn't go flying off because Alto didn't love her the way she wanted. Going back to the scene where Ai-kun molted in front of Ranka and finally realizing that Ai was actually a Vajra, this is where her memories kick in and like she claimed, she began to regain her memory and realized how much of a connection she had to the Vajra. Kind of like what 4Tran said, it was an instinct.

Ranka's idea to bring Ai-kun back and creating peace with the Vajra coincide with each other because it happened in that instant. If it wasn't for the molting, I believe that Ranka would not have gone to the Vajra home world. All of this stems back to Ai-kun and Ranka's realization of what he actually was, it's actually deeper than "Alto doesn't love me so I'm going to use Brera and Ai-kun as an excuse to run away from this pain." We got no hint of Ranka wanting to do this until she impulsively decided to bring Ai-kun back and try to create peace with the Vajra. I'm not excusing Ranka in anyway for leaving Frontier but I certainly don't blame her for making that decision considering her circumstances.
You are of course entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are simplifying it too much. Yeah, Ranka was motivated by Ai-kun molting into going to the Vajra homeworld. But she premeditated enough on that to leave letters to Ozma and Nanase. Of course we could get into another discussion if she really thought that Alto would take her, but letīs just not do that again.

In any case, if you think that her motivations were that simple and pure, Iīll have to disagree with you. As I see it, the situation with Alto and her being used by the government got intolerable to her, so those things which I explained in detail in my last post were also deciding factors why she left. Of course this is my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
It seems that regarding to this part, Alto simply didn't notice/ignored Ranka's effort and focused almost all of his efforts onto taking care of Sheryl instead. Personally that was a change in worse for the development of Alto as well.
Erm. No. Alto only really began to "take care of Sheryl" when he got notice of her illnesss, which was *after* Ranka had left. Before he was there for her in about the same amount as he was there for Ranka. Remember, when Ranka found the two of them on the rooftop, Sheryl was in his arms because she had one of her fainting spells. Now, we can speculate as to how the scene would have developed if Ranka had not barged in ( or if Michael had not entered his and Altos quarter / there wouldnīt have been a secret mission in "Ranka Attack" ), but as to that moment Alto had not overtly done more for Sheryl at the cost of his friendship with Ranka.


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Originally Posted by Death Header View Post
btw stop justifying Sheryl here this is a Ranka thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
There's a very easy way for that to happen: don't feed/start discussions about Sheryl here, if you're uncomfortable with it. I also find it unbecoming, since it almost implies there cannot be a discussion of one character without the other.
Where exactly did I "justify Sheryl"? Also, the characters are linked more than most, so comparisons are a part of their character discussion. Not always necessary, but often enough applicable.
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