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Old 2008-05-27, 19:14   Link #301
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Beams have one advantage over solid slug-based weapons, at least on paper - no ammo storage required. The theory is that, if you can get away from carrying ammunition, logistics is simplified (the gun runs off the power the platform produces, like any other system) and in THEORY you could boost the effectiveness of the energy weapon higher than for a kinetic-based weapon in the same-sized platform as you wouldn't have to (theoretically again) increase the size of a round or its payload to deliver more damage to a target.
As a matter of reliability, it's usually better to draw energy weapon power from a bank of capacitors, so the savings in ammunition might be relatively slight (admittedly, it may be possible to carry many more shots per kilogram of mass using energy weapons). Because of the complexity of an energy weapon and the amount of power that has to flow through its components, it probably isn't possible to boost its power output beyond what it's designed for, but it would be possible to dial down from that maximum. Perhaps in this situation, the standard fire mode is at 75% full power, with the option of going either up or down from that.

With projectile weapons, this isn't quite as easy to accomplish, but one can do something similiar by using multiple ammunition types. For example, the US has been able to progressively increase the penetration of the same 120mm tank gun they've used for almost two decades by introducing superior ammunition.

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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
The other theoretical advantage is the lightspeed one - a kinetic weapon at relativistic ranges suffers from lag time, which means you have to project where a target will be when in order to hit it, unless it's a guided missile with its own onboard systems to maneuver... while a laser or particle-beam weapon will move at lightspeed or near-lightspeed, and have enough time to (theoretically) burn the target before it can get out of the way. Ignoring, of course, the problems with keeping a beam coherent at range, or that hitting a target from more than a few kilometers out moving at those speeds would take enough computer power that a kinetic weapon would probably do as well with a different approach (scattering shots in the general area the target would be).
I think that the relatively slow propagation rate of the gunpod rounds is a good indicator that it was designed primarily for firing at targets 3km or closer. At that range, a high rate of fire (and decent penetration) is possible more desirable than a low ROF relatvistic weapon. And of course at longer ranges, Valkyries have access to a plethora of missiles.

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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
But yes, the Macross universe does have a way to compensate for inertia... since it also has gravity control as a matter of course in its ships. With this sort of technology, you could (at least in theory) compensate for inertia by use of a small gravitic generator in the ship, which would counter inertia by projecting a field inverse to the direction of travel and thus negate a lot of the acceleration/deceleration effects... or at least, that's going to be the technobabble I'm going to use to explain why the Macross Quarter could suddenly decelerate without ripping everyone's spines out of their bodies, even WITH the bracing involved.
Truth be told, the decelerations of the VF-25s and VF-27 in that episode were probably quite a bit more impressive than Macross Quarter.
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Old 2008-05-27, 19:41   Link #302
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As a matter of reliability, it's usually better to draw energy weapon power from a bank of capacitors, so the savings in ammunition might be relatively slight (admittedly, it may be possible to carry many more shots per kilogram of mass using energy weapons). Because of the complexity of an energy weapon and the amount of power that has to flow through its components, it probably isn't possible to boost its power output beyond what it's designed for, but it would be possible to dial down from that maximum. Perhaps in this situation, the standard fire mode is at 75% full power, with the option of going either up or down from that.

With projectile weapons, this isn't quite as easy to accomplish, but one can do something similiar by using multiple ammunition types. For example, the US has been able to progressively increase the penetration of the same 120mm tank gun they've used for almost two decades by introducing superior ammunition.
The problem is we don't really have a good theory (again, that word!) for how to construct practical energy weapons as our current technologies for generating lasers and the like leaves much to be desired as far as energy output goes, along with things like focusing a coherent beam of energy over that range... and for that matter, generating one. Again, the main on-paper advantage is logistics; if the gun's relatively simple internally, and doesn't need ammo but can pull power directly from ship's systems or capacitors charged from the power plant, with the downside that capacitors have limited charge versus a direct-draw weapon.

I do suspect versatility's more of a factor with kinetic weapons here, if only because you CAN do multiple things with a projectile versus a laser which ablates a target or a plasma burst which sublimates it into vapor.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I think that the relatively slow propagation rate of the gunpod rounds is a good indicator that it was designed primarily for firing at targets 3km or closer. At that range, a high rate of fire (and decent penetration) is possible more desirable than a low ROF relatvistic weapon. And of course at longer ranges, Valkyries have access to a plethora of missiles.
As I said, the advantages of lightspeed weapons is negated by the tightness of the beam required to deliver damage at that range... or else you end up with kilometer-wide beams which require (probably) a massive amount of power to deliver enough energy to soft or hard-kill a target. At the ranges Valkyries fight in, a gunpod is as good a weapon as any other, especially since they primarily uses missiles for their main weapons due to the range advantage... that, and you can put reaction warheads on those.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Truth be told, the decelerations of the VF-25s and VF-27 in that episode were probably quite a bit more impressive than Macross Quarter.
True, but the VF-25 and -27 have less inertia to deal with, due to lower mass, and the pilot is strapped into one spot and WON'T move from that spot short of ejecting or being shot out of the cockpit, so you can design your inertial dampening/gravitic systems to focus on that one area exclusively, and just make sure the rest of the frame's able to take the sheer stresses involved with sudden vector changes. With the Quarter, the crew has to be able to move around a lot, which means you have to have either a very good amount of gravitic control, or else huge inertial dampers as the ship has far more inertia (and probably more speed after being given time to accelerate) than a simple fighter does... on top of the fact that there's multiple areas to have to dampen, on top of the fact that the ship's hull and superstructure either has to be massively reinforced to avoid tearing itself apart, or else has to have inertial dampening devices built into the superstructure at points where extreme structural stress can be expected.
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Old 2008-05-27, 21:00   Link #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
As I said, the advantages of lightspeed weapons is negated by the tightness of the beam required to deliver damage at that range... or else you end up with kilometer-wide beams which require (probably) a massive amount of power to deliver enough energy to soft or hard-kill a target. At the ranges Valkyries fight in, a gunpod is as good a weapon as any other, especially since they primarily uses missiles for their main weapons due to the range advantage... that, and you can put reaction warheads on those.
With that said, could this be why the general combat doctrine of the Zentradi is to engage at close or melee range? Next to the constant numerical and size superiority is what appears to be some pretty short range missile, beam or plasma/partical bolt weaponary. Without the support of a dedicated factory ship to manufacture ammunition, a long range combat fleet would probably be more dependent on directed energy weapons. Would also explain the lifetime warranty attached

Which brings me to the zent rifle that Hikaru and Alto used. Why have a single shot infantry weapon when they can build rapid fire gatling pulse lasers? Unless it's a heavier hitting weapon with longer range.
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Old 2008-05-27, 21:36   Link #304
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
With that said, could this be why the general combat doctrine of the Zentradi is to engage at close or melee range? Next to the constant numerical and size superiority is what appears to be some pretty short range missile, beam or plasma/partical bolt weaponary. Without the support of a dedicated factory ship to manufacture ammunition, a long range combat fleet would probably be more dependent on directed energy weapons. Would also explain the lifetime warranty attached

Which brings me to the zent rifle that Hikaru and Alto used. Why have a single shot infantry weapon when they can build rapid fire gatling pulse lasers? Unless it's a heavier hitting weapon with longer range.

... ARE negated even. ARE negated.

And yes, I suspect they do engage at close range because missiles are relatively cheap, and their beam weapons only really do any damage (or can hit) from fairly close in, Macross cannons included.

As for the rifle, I suspect it's heavier-hitting (remembering that Klein's shoulder cannon barely scratched the paint, and this was a liquid-plasma gun of the type the Vajra was using to pot capships) and thus has a lower rate of fire... but then again, you probably don't NEED a lot of shots when one hit can kill a mecha, and a scaled-up version can kill a destroyer.
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Old 2008-05-28, 00:43   Link #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
With that said, could this be why the general combat doctrine of the Zentradi is to engage at close or melee range? Next to the constant numerical and size superiority is what appears to be some pretty short range missile, beam or plasma/partical bolt weaponary.
This seems to fit within Zentradi doctrine: mecha to kill enemy mecha, and ships to kill ships. Ships are the ones that normally use long-range fire, so it's the job of the mecha to get in close. Still, there are Reguld variants among the mecha that do engage at long-range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
Without the support of a dedicated factory ship to manufacture ammunition, a long range combat fleet would probably be more dependent on directed energy weapons. Would also explain the lifetime warranty attached
Actually, the Zentradi mecha tend to use a fair bit of ammunition, so I don't think that this'll be the case.

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Originally Posted by Burner of Anime View Post
Which brings me to the zent rifle that Hikaru and Alto used. Why have a single shot infantry weapon when they can build rapid fire gatling pulse lasers? Unless it's a heavier hitting weapon with longer range.
It's the principle of using different weapons for different purposes. You've hit on two of the main reasons for building a heavier weapon of that nature (the third reason is better accuracy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
As for the rifle, I suspect it's heavier-hitting (remembering that Klein's shoulder cannon barely scratched the paint, and this was a liquid-plasma gun of the type the Vajra was using to pot capships) and thus has a lower rate of fire... but then again, you probably don't NEED a lot of shots when one hit can kill a mecha, and a scaled-up version can kill a destroyer.
I don't think that the gun Alto recovered was quite that powerful - it only managed to kill the Vajra because Klan Klein already created fractures in the armor. Her big gun would have probably accomplished the same thing.
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Old 2008-05-28, 06:26   Link #306
encia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As a matter of reliability, it's usually better to draw energy weapon power from a bank of capacitors, so the savings in ammunition might be relatively slight (admittedly, it may be possible to carry many more shots per kilogram of mass using energy weapons). Because of the complexity of an energy weapon and the amount of power that has to flow through its components, it probably isn't possible to boost its power output beyond what it's designed for, but it would be possible to dial down from that maximum. Perhaps in this situation, the standard fire mode is at 75% full power, with the option of going either up or down from that.
With beam weapons, "ammunition" can be gathered via particle intake vent or bussard ramscoop.

The engine already scoops free-floating particles anyway.
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Old 2008-05-28, 06:35   Link #307
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What, in the vacuum of space?

And 4Tran was talking about energy, not ammunition.
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Old 2008-05-28, 07:10   Link #308
encia
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Oh, I know; that's why I dumped it all here.
It's not just lasers, all energy weapons are less effective than projectiles because of the weird physics behind armor penetration.
Photon based lasers, EM frequency can influence armour penetration's efficiency.

Gamma-Ray or X-Ray has better armour penetration than IR and UV based lasers.
Typical tank armour would make a poor shield against gamma-rays.

The problem with high-end frequency photon lasers is containing the photons before releasing it against the target.

In http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/Compu...f6da6dcf7.html
Atomic particles being contained by twisting photon lasers. One can see potential development for plasma beam/photon laser beam hybrid.
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Old 2008-05-28, 07:22   Link #309
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
What, in the vacuum of space?
Space is not a pure vacuum. Refer to Bussard Hydrogen Collector designs for the future interplanetary spaceships. Combined that with twisted photon tractor beam and magnetic fields.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And 4Tran was talking about energy, not ammunition.
The “ammunition” for any beam weapons is particles. Both projectile and particle beam weapons requires energy input.
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Old 2008-05-28, 08:40   Link #310
4Tran
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
With beam weapons, "ammunition" can be gathered via particle intake vent or bussard ramscoop.

The engine already scoops free-floating particles anyway.
The amount of mass fired by a particle cannon is trivial so there's no need to resort to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by encia View Post
Photon based lasers, EM frequency can influence armour penetration's efficiency.

Gamma-Ray or X-Ray has better armour penetration than IR and UV based lasers.
Typical tank armour would make a poor shield against gamma-rays.

The problem with high-end frequency photon lasers is containing the photons before releasing it against the target.

In http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/Compu...f6da6dcf7.html
Atomic particles being contained by twisting photon lasers. One can see potential development for plasma beam/photon laser beam hybrid.
While different types of lasers have different penetration properties, they're still going to be short compared to a projectile joule for joule. Plasma weapons in the classical sense, on the other hand are unworkable.
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:04   Link #311
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
Space is not a pure vacuum. Refer to Bussard Hydrogen Collector designs for the future interplanetary spaceships. Combined that with twisted photon tractor beam and magnetic fields.
Mounting a device capable of creating a magnetic field of a thousand kilometer of diameter on a Valkyrie doesn't seem an alternative preferable to just taking a kilogram of matter with you and throwing that. (Also, how long would it take to collect enough atoms for one shot?)

Aren't they already storing reaction mass to move? Or are they doing something else?

Quote:
The “ammunition” for any beam weapons is particles. Both projectile and particle beam weapons requires energy input.
I know. The point is, we were talking about storage space. If I understood 4Tran's point, he meant that what you gain in ammunition storage, you lose in energy storage (the capacitors feeding the beam weapon).
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Old 2008-05-28, 19:34   Link #312
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't think that the gun Alto recovered was quite that powerful - it only managed to kill the Vajra because Klan Klein already created fractures in the armor. Her big gun would have probably accomplished the same thing.
It was powerful enough to crack the shell after Klein-sama put a hole into the area above where I suspect the plasma reactor/generator to be... which is ultimately what blew up the Vajra at the end. It also had a similar appearance to the Vajra's ship-killer liquid-plasma beam, which suggests it's of the same type, and the soldier's corpse only had that rather than a Regult or Glaug around him.. which means he was either podless due to an accident or enemy fire, or else he was possibly in power armor and carrying an anti-mecha or anti-ship weapon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by encia
The “ammunition” for any beam weapons is particles. Both projectile and particle beam weapons requires energy input.
We know they use lasers, particle-beam weapons, and plasma weapons. Energy can be provided from the ship's reactor, or a separate power unit in the weapon. Plasma has to be generated from a mass which is excited into a plasma... and even with hydrogen in space, you'd need a big ramjet or scoop to collect enough material for some of the shots we've seen, which suggests they're probably carrying some sort of reaction mass onboard, which would limit it ammo-wise for the plasma weapons... but less so for lasers or particle beams, which we (currently) generate by exciting particles in a cyclotron or some other device. I don't see this needing a Bussard ramscoop or similar technology to 'gather' the particles: you should already have everything you need right there.

And, IIRC, laser weapons aren't meant to deliver damage by breaking things through kinetic energy delivered to a target, but rather to burn or ablate it. The problem there is doing it at any decent range for a less-than-exorbitant amount of power. Every laser we've seen in Macross, including the Zentradi ones, tend to be short-range weapons. The particle cannons and Macross cannons are the only ones with longer ranges, and that's probably due more to the extra energy available aboard a capital ship than anything else.
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Old 2008-05-29, 05:44   Link #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Mounting a device capable of creating a magnetic field of a thousand kilometer of diameter on a Valkyrie doesn't seem an alternative preferable to just taking a kilogram of matter with you and throwing that. (Also, how long would it take to collect enough atoms for one shot?)
In Macross Frontier Ep3, you have a spacecraft (VF-25) slowing down when they turn their engines off. In real life, without any counter forces spacecrafts already moving shouldn’t slow down.

Projecting a large magnetic field for collecting particles will create a drag which reduces spacecraft’s speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Aren't they already storing reaction mass to move? Or are they doing something else?
Why not both?

While you have the main combustion engine to recharge the hybrid car’s main battery, the car is also equipped regenerative brakes to help recharge the main battery.
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Old 2008-05-29, 06:00   Link #314
encia
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
It was powerful enough to crack the shell after Klein-sama put a hole into the area above where I suspect the plasma reactor/generator to be... which is ultimately what blew up the Vajra at the end. It also had a similar appearance to the Vajra's ship-killer liquid-plasma beam, which suggests it's of the same type, and the soldier's corpse only had that rather than a Regult or Glaug around him.. which means he was either podless due to an accident or enemy fire, or else he was possibly in power armor and carrying an anti-mecha or anti-ship weapon.

We know they use lasers, particle-beam weapons, and plasma weapons.
They are not classic (photon) lasers since we can see them move and beam’s speed is not at speed of light. They are similar laser plasma beams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Energy can be provided from the ship's reactor, or a separate power unit in the weapon. Plasma has to be generated from a mass which is excited into a plasma... and even with hydrogen in space, you'd need a big ramjet or scoop to collect enough material for some of the shots we've seen, which suggests they're probably carrying some sort of reaction mass onboard, which would limit it ammo-wise for the plasma weapons...
I view magnetic field projections for collecting particles like regenerative brakes in hybird cars.

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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
but less so for lasers or particle beams, which we (currently) generate by exciting particles in a cyclotron or some other device.
We haven’t mastered super-conductor tech tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
I don't see this needing a Bussard ramscoop or similar technology to 'gather' the particles: you should already have everything you need right there.
Why not completely delete the intake vents from VF-xx designs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
And, IIRC, laser weapons aren't meant to deliver damage by breaking things through kinetic energy delivered to a target, but rather to burn or ablate it.
Photons are ionising type particles.
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Old 2008-05-29, 06:28   Link #315
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Aren't the intake vents for atmospheric ops? The VF-19 and VF-22 don't really need the intakes for atmospheric ops but use them because since you're in the air you might as well take advantage of it and use it for air cooling.

Remember, for some reason, Valk engines work in atmosphere, which means they're air breathing. That's what the vents are for.
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Old 2008-05-29, 09:51   Link #316
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by encia View Post
In Macross Frontier Ep3, you have a spacecraft (VF-25) slowing down when they turn their engines off. In real life, without any counter forces spacecrafts already moving shouldn’t slow down.

Projecting a large magnetic field for collecting particles will create a drag which reduces spacecraft’s speed.


Why not both?

While you have the main combustion engine to recharge the hybrid car’s main battery, the car is also equipped regenerative brakes to help recharge the main battery.
Because there just aren't that many free floating hydrogen atoms in space and it just wouldn't be worth the trouble?
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Old 2008-05-29, 20:05   Link #317
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Episode 9 confirmed a couple things:

Mikhail's sniper rifle appears to be a rail gun.

The macro/micro process is only a few seconds!

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Old 2008-05-29, 22:53   Link #318
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^ and the macro/micro process can macronize specific non-organic items like Klan's headband.
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Old 2008-05-29, 23:09   Link #319
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^ It can also enlarge food!

Can anyone say... organic?

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Old 2008-05-29, 23:46   Link #320
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Quote:
It also had a similar appearance to the Vajra's ship-killer liquid-plasma beam, which suggests it's of the same type, and the soldier's corpse only had that rather than a Regult or Glaug around him.. which means he was either podless due to an accident or enemy fire, or else he was possibly in power armor and carrying an anti-mecha or anti-ship weapon.
That soldier's corpse was inside the remains of a power armor. If you look at it closely, you can see the chest cannon. They also show the back where you can clearly see the power armor's rear and shoulder thrusters as well as the cannon mounted on the back.
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