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Old 2008-07-05, 23:42   Link #421
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
A colony fleet of over a million people and they can only produce half a dozen decent pilots?
Actually that's 10 million people, giant Zentradi included.
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Old 2008-07-06, 00:35   Link #422
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
^ I think it's a hold over from the VF-19. It was a two seater as well.

Interesting to know it appears the VF-25 has dual rear firing cannons. Probably the actual head cannons found in battleroid mode. They might be gatling cannons as they have the same high pitch whine the gun pod does. Kinda odd they'd go with ammo based ones as traditionally the head cannons have always been lasers.

On the VF-27 turns out that Brera is actually wearing a helmet, you see him wearing it in the scene were Michel blows up his gun and the holographics drop for a second.
Don't forget the shoulder gun turrets on Ozma's Armored Pack, which also have a high rate of fire and a high pitch whine. Everybody keeps forgetting those, even though he was using them in GERWALK mode in Episode 7.

It may not be a gatling, however. Single-barrel chainguns do put out a rather respectable rate of fire... garh I'll need to download 13 and watch it carefully. Or as Tak would so cheerfully proclaim, these are rapid-fire beam guns with the wrong sound effect.

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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
I'm sure the VF-171 isn't a bad fighter. It's about time the current main stay fighter got some love. Gotta justify ordering several hundred of the Valkyries
Not really. Take the M114 Cavalry Reconnaisance Vechicle, which was universally derided as crap, and yet several thousands were built. Many, many bad experiences with the M114 led to the close scrutiny on the Bradley and the Stryker.

Let's not forget people that the VF-171 is based off the VF-17, which is a design THIRTY YEARS OLD by the time of Frontier. Hell even the VF-19 is an aging design, being twenty years old, and let's not forget that while the VF-17 was one helluva spec ops fighter in its heyday, it was phased out for the VF-22. To put things into perspective, while VF-25 is a late-model Flanker, the VF-171 is an upgraded F-4 Phantom.

As for dual seaters, in Episode 1 Deculture and broadcast, when Guillame ejects, note that his "seat" folds out to reveal the Ex-Gear system, and that when Alto jumps into the cockpit, his Ex-Gear unfolds to become the seat and controls. Since the ejection seat is essentially an Ex-Gear, so long as you make the cockpit long enough and put in the appropriate jacks and drivers and plugs, you can fit two people in there so long as they're wearing Ex-Gears.

The YF-19 did have two seats. I have no idea why.

2-seater "tub" Valks are canon; the ELINT VF-1 was a 2-seater, as was the combat capable VF-1D (which was normally used for training, which is how it is in USAF squadrons: F-15 and F-16 squadrons have a few 2-seaters for training, but the rest are single seaters). With Ex-Gear, since the exosuit forms the seat for the pilot, and the controls, you don't really have so many issues; as long as the cockpit can fit, you can turn a VF-25 into a tub with less fuss.

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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
^ i'm thinking it's an ace as he was just blowing up some browns which do go down pretty nice under normal gun pod fire. That and he was using the battleroid mode which only leetz characters get to use. ^_^
Could be a flashback to Ozma's past; he was a NUNS pilot, afterall.

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
About damn time. In the triangle that is the VF-25, VF-27 and the VF-171, the VF-171 certainly is the underdog here. For a mainstay fighter, they sure 'were' doing pretty terribly.
Part of this is deliberate shafting on Kawamori's part, since he pretty much admitted than rather than shaft the VF-19 by making it cannon fodder, he'd prefer to shaft the VF-17's descendant. Then again look at Macross 7: the VF-11C was the UN Spacy's mainstay fighter and it was getting killed in high numbers. Hell look at original macross: the VF-1 was the UN Spacy mainstay fighter and it too died in great numbers.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
A colony fleet of over a million people and they can only produce half a dozen decent pilots?
Only half a dozen that we see and are told their names; it's been implied that SMS is a cut above NUNS. Actually you'd see this in real life as well; during the Carter and Reagan years a fair number of the best pilots in the US weren't in the Air Force or Navy but in the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard units; combat vets who got out from the regular USAF, got civvie jobs, and became weekend warriors. In fact the top F-16 instructors during that time were members of an Arizona ANG unit (said unit did training for ANG units, OPFOR during Red Flag); stories abound of F-4C pilots from ANG units scoring kills on pilots in F-16s, F-15s and F/A-18s. Which does go to prove that it's not just the fighter, but the guy flying it, that plays a great role.

It may also depend on the leadership; Glass hasn't, IMO, appeared to be the kind of leader who is too concerned with military details; contrast with Max and Millia, who ran a tight ship with well-trained and well-drilled crews.

That said, there's only so much you can do with a cheapass, nerfed, no frills fighter that doesn't even have FAST packs. Though it does have the ability to carry underwing long-range missiles, which is something I wish they'd kept for the VF-25.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-07-06 at 00:45.
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Old 2008-07-06, 02:37   Link #423
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Only half a dozen that we see and are told their names; it's been implied that SMS is a cut above NUNS. Actually you'd see this in real life as well; during the Carter and Reagan years a fair number of the best pilots in the US weren't in the Air Force or Navy but in the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard units; combat vets who got out from the regular USAF, got civvie jobs, and became weekend warriors. In fact the top F-16 instructors during that time were members of an Arizona ANG unit (said unit did training for ANG units, OPFOR during Red Flag); stories abound of F-4C pilots from ANG units scoring kills on pilots in F-16s, F-15s and F/A-18s. Which does go to prove that it's not just the fighter, but the guy flying it, that plays a great role.

It may also depend on the leadership; Glass hasn't, IMO, appeared to be the kind of leader who is too concerned with military details; contrast with Max and Millia, who ran a tight ship with well-trained and well-drilled crews.

That said, there's only so much you can do with a cheapass, nerfed, no frills fighter that doesn't even have FAST packs. Though it does have the ability to carry underwing long-range missiles, which is something I wish they'd kept for the VF-25.
I believe you're correct and all three factors contribute. Noobs, leaders that don't care about a strong defense for whatever reason, and the fact that they're flying underpowered, poorly armed, deathtraps. Taking that into consideration, I don't get where Ozma gets off thinking they're cowards when he's flying the latest, he's had experience/training against the Vajra, while Spacy pilots don't even go on recon duty. At most they're probably trained to provide cover for whatever hot-headed performer they send to deal with any rogue Zentradi they come across.

He acts like they're not even on the same side. That's a mercenary for you.
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Old 2008-07-07, 01:11   Link #424
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I believe you're correct and all three factors contribute. Noobs, leaders that don't care about a strong defense for whatever reason, and the fact that they're flying underpowered, poorly armed, deathtraps. Taking that into consideration, I don't get where Ozma gets off thinking they're cowards when he's flying the latest, he's had experience/training against the Vajra, while Spacy pilots don't even go on recon duty. At most they're probably trained to provide cover for whatever hot-headed performer they send to deal with any rogue Zentradi they come across.
Well I wouldn't exactly call the VF-171 poorly-armed, since it has the internal missile bays that the VF-25 lacks; if anything the VF-25 basic is more poorly armed compared to the VF-171 - just a gunpod. That said a Super Packed VF-25 will beat a VF-171 - hell it already beats out a VF-19 or a -22 in terms of pure speed. Combat performance is equivalent, according to Kawamori, which means that it's equal, though not nesscesarily superior to the VF-19/-22. (I'd personally go with the VF-19/22 myself, since both have Active Stealth systems and a fighter-scale pinpoint barrier system.)

That said as we see in Deculture there were a few pilots who were giving a good fight; one guy for instance used his TVC nozzles to boost to the side for a better shot (only to get the hit by the brakes - Top Gun ref there), so there are some pilots who do have skills, and the episode 14 preview shows a battroid mode VF-171 killing a red; may or not be past Ozma, but it goes a long way to disproving the idea that as a whole NUNS are crap. You can't stamp out skills, just like you can't stamp out incompetance.

Quote:
He acts like they're not even on the same side. That's a mercenary for you.
Thing is, even if you're flying a crappy deathtrap of a fighter, as a NUNS pilot your job is to go out there and die for your colony fleet. It's that simple. All people who join militaries do so with the understanding that at some point they may have to die for their country. That guy who Ozma relieved pretty much turned tail and ran like a bat outta hell; the only reason this isn't dereliction of duty is because, as said, SMS relieved the NUNS pilots.

That said, note how SMS is always used: recon, tip of the spear, always getting sent in to do the military's work for them - there's ample reason for Ozma to be resentful and to feel a sort of "us vs them" attitude. Hell such attitudes were present in the US Navy SEAL community, due to tensions between the counterterrorist SEAL Team Six and the more conventional SEAL Team Two; this is just one example of many.

It cannot, however, beat an US Air Force briefing document leaked several weeks before the USAF was to present its new "business strategy" and plans before Congress, where that document identified the Army, Navy, Marines, AND the Coast Guard, as the enemy.
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Old 2008-07-07, 08:39   Link #425
squaresphere
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well I wouldn't exactly call the VF-171 poorly-armed, since it has the internal missile bays that the VF-25 lacks; if anything the VF-25 basic is more poorly armed compared to the VF-171 - just a gunpod.
While the evidence backs you up, I just can't fathom the VF-25 having no missile bays

ooo that just reminded me, I hope we get to see one of the VF-171's use the beam adapter for its gun pod
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Old 2008-07-07, 09:44   Link #426
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
While the evidence backs you up, I just can't fathom the VF-25 having no missile bays
Probably a cost-cutting measure and a means of simplifying the design, that. Plus it's probably a move back to the style of older Air Forces, which all used external ordanance; let's face it, it's a crapload easier to redesign external weapons mounts and launching systems than it is for internal weapons mounts. Take the F-22 and F-35's intake launch bays for Sidewinders; these bays can hold Sidewinders and ONLY Sidewinders. Or the main launch bay, which was optimised for AMRAAMs, which means that fitting in air to ground weapons was pretty much a jury-rigged process.

Contrast with the F-16, F-15 and F/A-18, where if it will fit they can fire it. The F-16 was just designed to be a cheapass no frills fighter and it's evolved into a potent strike/multirole platform with new gear mounted externally (LANTRIN and CFTs).

Quote:
ooo that just reminded me, I hope we get to see one of the VF-171's use the beam adapter for its gun pod
Now that would be pretty sweet. Though I'm not very hopeful.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-07-07 at 10:05.
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Old 2008-07-07, 10:45   Link #427
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Considering the gun pods can barely scratch a red, I could see a vf-171 pulling it out.
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Old 2008-07-07, 11:07   Link #428
Tak
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^ Kathy might be piloting that VF-171

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Old 2008-07-08, 00:57   Link #429
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well I wouldn't exactly call the VF-171 poorly-armed, since it has the internal missile bays that the VF-25 lacks;
Then where did the missiles that Gilliam shoot at the Red Vajra in episode 1 come from? Obviously not from his Super Packs, since he ejected those beforehand when he entered Frontier...
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Old 2008-07-08, 08:21   Link #430
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^oooo completely forgot about that scene!
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Old 2008-07-08, 08:28   Link #431
Tak
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Kawamori stated that the VF-25 was a mixture of the VF-1 and the VF/YF-19. The VF-25 therefore has a distinct possibility of carrying missiles in its legs.

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Old 2008-07-11, 00:06   Link #432
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So... Apparently the VF-171's have pinpoint barriers, as evidenced by that Diamond Force pilot PPB Punching that Vajra...

It begs the question of why the VF-25 and 27 don't seem to have them then...
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Old 2008-07-11, 00:09   Link #433
Tak
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
So... Apparently the VF-171's have pinpoint barriers, as evidenced by that Diamond Force pilot PPB Punching that Vajra...

It begs the question of why the VF-25 and 27 don't seem to have them then...
The VF-25 has shield barriers as shown in episode 7. Although the VF-171's pinpoint barriers may have been developed for a slightly different purpose Just because you are punching, does not mean its also good for blocking. After all, they didn't bother using em for the last 13 episodes, did they?

On the other hand, the VF-25 and VF-27 all seem to be equipped with pinpoint barrier-like blade weapons. Except the 25s would have to wield them and the 27s have one internally inside the arm.

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Old 2008-07-11, 04:59   Link #434
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Considering the gun pods can barely scratch a red, I could see a vf-171 pulling it out.
Episode 14 confirms that it's all a matter of placement - a faceful of tracer from a standard gunpod (VF-171 or VF-25) kills Vajra reds just fine.
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Old 2008-07-11, 07:32   Link #435
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Episode 14 confirms that it's all a matter of placement - a faceful of tracer from a standard gunpod (VF-171 or VF-25) kills Vajra reds just fine.
Aye, the first episode of VF-171s in action is something I'd like to call a "Pearl Harbor" syndrome.

Too surprised in the early phases to act properly, but eager to catch up. Even if it took them 13 bleeding episode to do so, eh?

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Old 2008-07-11, 08:00   Link #436
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True enough - and while we're on the subject of Pearl Harbor, the Allies' early aerial encounters with the A6M Zero didn't go that well either. Once enough experience of its weaknesses had been accumulated, though, the story was somewhat different.

Alto's first sortie with the Armoured Pack reveals something interesting, too - the VF-25's pilot can select which of the pack's components to jettison, rather than having to blow them all off at once. Alto sequentially releases first the thruster modules, then the shoulder and leg attachments, while retaining the chest modules throughout.
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Old 2008-07-11, 08:26   Link #437
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Kawamori stated that the VF-25 was a mixture of the VF-1 and the VF/YF-19. The VF-25 therefore has a distinct possibility of carrying missiles in its legs.

- Tak
Its more likely there are no Internal missles, since the logical place for the internal missles in the VF-25 is on the legs. But check this lineart:

http://i32.tinypic.com/dgtkx4.jpg

Notice how thin the legs are. There is now way in h*ll that there are internal missles in that area.

BTW, that was a scan from some Japanese magazine that has been floating around Macross World for a few weeks now.

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Then where did the missiles that Gilliam shoot at the Red Vajra in episode 1 come from? Obviously not from his Super Packs, since he ejected those beforehand when he entered Frontier...
Artistic License?



BTW......

Alto heading towards Vajra Mothership:

http://img.muri.se:8080/Macross/Macross%20...0Large%2027.jpg

Alto inside Vajra Mothership:

http://img.muri.se:8080/Macross/Macross%20...0Large%2034.jpg

In the two pics above note that the radar thingy on the Armored Pack rotates 90 degress in Battroid Mode and that the Box Launchers in the legs seem to be ejectable if you have expended them. The things I'm talking about are encircled in the pic below:

http://i37.tinypic.com/vicm69.jpg

Pic with box launchers still attached to legs (Episode 2):

http://i38.tinypic.com/28vw2f4.jpg
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Old 2008-07-11, 08:34   Link #438
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Speaking of artistic license, did Alto accidentally flip on the VF-25's airshow smoke generators in episode 14? During the fight after he defolds, his fighter trails wingtip streamers in space for some reason...
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Old 2008-07-11, 08:43   Link #439
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It ain't artistic license. It's just the effect of re-using footage of atmospheric flight in space
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Old 2008-07-11, 09:20   Link #440
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It ain't artistic license. It's just the effect of re-using footage of atmospheric flight in space
That's right.
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