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Old 2008-07-16, 09:26   Link #461
Wild Goose
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*snaps fingers* So what you guys are saying is that Frontier is the first fleet where 1) everything is connected into one vast wagon-train-ship to the stars and (2) Frontier is the first ship seen where the other-purpose parts have armor coverings, as opposed to the Macross 7 Fleet where City 7 had the clamshell dome armor but the rest of the fleet's ships had no such protection.

Meanwhile, upon further watching of Episodes 13 and 14, I'd have to disagree with Tak's idea that the VF-171s and VF-25s have pinpoint barriers. The only evidence we see of something close to a PPB system is when Diamond Leader punches that Vajra small-type, but the glow on it is localised and is identical to the VF-25's energy blade. There's also one more thing that would tend to disprove a PPB: There's no glowing moving circles on the Valk. The pinpoint barrier system always manifests with 3 energy circles that are moving around on the Valk. IMO the sparks and all that we see are the energy-converting armor engaging; it's been said that the only reason Valks can maintain structural intergrity in Battroid mode is due to energy-converting armor, which converts the electrical power from the fusion turbines into energy that strengthens the Valk's frame, allowing it to stand up and not fall apart from its own weight.

My personal theory as to how Diamond Leader pulled off that punch? He's a Psychodriver with a T-Link System installed on his VF-171, allowing him to use the hissatsu-class T-Link Knuckle attack. Afterall, Real Men fight with their fists.
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Old 2008-07-16, 10:25   Link #462
ChronoReverse
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The 25 might not but the 171 probably does.

The way the fist was used was almost exactly the way Isamu used it in Plus. The glow wasn't a disc shape but neither was Isamu's (his was a swirly transparent mass). The fighter version of the PPB seems to be shown two ways in both Plus and 7; sometimes is a glowing disc and sometimes is a swirly transparent mass. It doesn't take a stretch to extend that to Frontier's simple glow (for the punch).

As for the energy converting armor bit; all VF's have that type of armor and we've never seen any glow before.
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Old 2008-07-16, 10:43   Link #463
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If you are wondering what the original city blocks look like.

Spoiler for original New Macross Class:
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Old 2008-07-16, 11:11   Link #464
March
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
*snaps fingers* So what you guys are saying is...
All I'm saying is the Macross 1 had no shell, the Macross 5, 7 and 25/Frontier do have shells and MAYBE the early Macross vessels like Macross 1 could have had retractable slot-like armor (such as those recently seen on the Frontier's cylinder-shaped Islands). However, I don't think the City 1 had such armor; personally, I think it was just the dome, much like the Megaroad ships.

As far as the VF-171's power fist, pin-point barriers and glowing knives, the lack of information about the mecha is a killer. For now, it seems one reasonable theory is as good as another. I've often thought that since the embracing of Energy Converting Armor, the fighter-carried pin-point barrier was a bit superfluous. Why spend extra weight, space and power on a defensive system like the pin-point barrier when you can likely just improve the Energy Converting Armor? But that's just me. I think the VF-171 has a pin-point barrier and that's likely what it used to punch that small Vajra into scrap.

Regarding the combat knives, it's my personal theory they are not pin-point barriers but variations on the Energy Converting Armor. Basically the weapon is supercharged to make it incredibly strong and resilient just like armor, but when used offensively in a blade, it can be used to penetrate any armored shell; an "energy converting knife" if you will. But it's just a theory.

Also, just to note, the pin-point barrier is not limited to only three defensive energy spheres. The Macross 7 was shown using almost 10 pin-point barrier spheres simultaneously.
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Old 2008-07-16, 11:33   Link #465
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The PPB seems to be tougher than just the ECA though. For instance, the VF-21 can use two of its fins as shields in Battroid mode but Guld overlays them with the PPB anyway. It doesn't hurt that a PPB can be regenerated while any damage to ECA (being armor, it gets chips, cracks, etc.) remains.

It's not like we have any indication that there's no ultimate limit to either the PPB or ECA so we can't assume (and it's not very logical to assume since there's diminishing returns in almost everything) that simply pumping more energy into ECA or PPB will yield a stronger barrier linearly. Thus being able to layer the "low-hanging fruit" of the PPC and ECA would make sense.
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Old 2008-07-16, 12:14   Link #466
March
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That's a good point, but like any system the virtue of the pin-point barrier (PPB) system all depends upon comparative gain versus the disavantages. The regenerative, damageless nature of the PPB is an advantage, but design-wise, what is lost in using such a system?

- The pin-point barrier system itself is more weight, which may sacrifice performance of the variable fighter in which it's mounted.
- When building a variable fighter, a location is required to mount the PPB system which may create design compromises one might not otherwise make.
- The PPB system requires power, power that might be utilized more effectively by all kinds of more critical systems like armor, engines, radar, laser/beam weapons, transformation systems, etc.
- Cost; is the pin-point barrier a cost-effective option or is it more worthwhile to build without it
- Effectiveness: is the cost, effort, weight and design compromises worth the protection the system is offering? Or is the defensive gain negligable in comparison to the time, money and resources being put into fighter-carried PPB systems? Is the PPB only protecting the valkyrie against a small margin of attacks, the majority of which are handled well enough by the ECA?

So when the fictional engineers of the Macross world design a valkyire, they are likely asking themselves would I rather have a PPB-equipped valkyrie that's larger, heavier, slower and less maneuverable or a valkyrie without a PPB that's smaller, lighter, faster and more maneuverable, all other factors being equal?

I'm not saying the VF-171 or the VF-25 are built one way or the other. And I've personally always loved the idea of the fighter-carried PPB. But I'm just trying to show why one fighter might have it and another may not. It might not be a catch-all, must-have technology in some respects. There's advantages and disadvantages to everything.
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Old 2008-07-16, 12:30   Link #467
ChronoReverse
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I don't disagree with most of what you say but there are some niggling points:


- The pin-point barrier system itself is more weight, which may sacrifice performance of the variable fighter in which it's mounted.
**This can't be true because the current limitation of the VF's is the pilot. Even with the PPB the performance is higher than what the pilot can withstand and therefore cannot be the performance bottleneck.


- When building a variable fighter, a location is required to mount the PPB system which may create design compromises one might not otherwise make.
**Probably true but the VF-21 and VF-19 and the VF-17 (a PPB was retrofitted in IIRC) all had a PPB. All three were very different designs but still managed to accommodate it. From this, I'd think the design consideration is relatively small.


- The PPB system requires power, power that might be utilized more effectively by all kinds of more critical systems like armor, engines, radar, laser/beam weapons, transformation systems, etc.
**The flight performance of the VF's suggests that a PPB isn't a limit in that regard. Therefore, since a PPB can be turned off and only used as needed, the addition of such a system can only be a bonus (when used to block a heavy shot) and at worse a neutral addition (when not used). Even if it affected systems like you mentioned, the PPB can simply be turned off.


- Cost; is the pin-point barrier a cost-effective option or is it more worthwhile to build without it
**This is the single most likely reason the PPB would be removed. In fact, if we assumed the knife was not a PPB, then I would've said it was almost certainly the case for the VF-25. Unfortunately the VF-171 was shown with the punch and now I'm starting to wonder again about how expensive they are.
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Old 2008-07-16, 12:32   Link #468
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Fighter designs would play heavily on the request for bids from the primary purchasing group...the U.N. Spacy. They would set the requirements based on whatever is going on and whatever technological improvements they know about. But also the whims of whoever is in charge that particular year in assigning the budget for new orders.

One year you might get a general or admiral that wants mechs to be flying tanks and loaded with armor and firepower. Another year is all about stealth, thus speed is not an issue, the extra bulk for the stealth design to work could be used for a PPB system without harm to the design. The following year the commander wants a fast designs. Speed is life.

It all depends on who is doing the ordering, and how the company sells the product to the generals and admirals.
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Old 2008-07-16, 13:59   Link #469
March
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Weight ALWAYS affects performance, no exceptions. Thrust-to-weight ratio will be impacted by more or less weight, aerodynamic balance/stability will be impacted by placing weight upon a particular portion of the frame and a host of other factors. I'm also discussing fighter design in the context of all other factors being equal; therefore if one PPB-equipped VF-19 fighter weighs in at 8 tons and another VF-19 fighter without PPB weighs in a 7.5 tons, all other factors being equal the lighter VF-19 will perform better.

No VF-17 Nightmare was ever fitted with a PPB, as far as I know. A VF-11D Custom was fitted with a PPB, but the VF-11D is also slightly larger and longer than standard VF-11 Thunderbolt.

Lastly, we can't compare a PPB-equipped fighter to another without a PPB except in the most basic, abstract terms. Which is my point; there's factors at play which we the audience aren't privy to that might have a larger impact on whether or not a PPB system is built into any given valkyrie. All I'm saying is that for any one of these reasons, a superior fighter might be designed that only lacks a PPB, a disadvantage which would be irrelevant in light of all the other advantages gained by the superior design.

Of course, all this fan speculation might be irrelevant if they all have PPBs. I'd kill to have some official statistics right now
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Old 2008-07-16, 15:12   Link #470
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I'm going to assert that it doesn't matter too much in the case of the PPB. Performance of the new fighters are all limited by the pilot. That is to say, the maximum level of each fighter is beyond what the pilot can endure.


Let's put this in more abstract terms.

Assume:
The 19 has physical performance of 100 without the PPB's weight.
The 19 has physical performance of 75 with the PPB's weight (I'm grossly overestimating the effect)
The pilot has limitation of 50.
Remember, these are accelerations.

In both cases, with or without the PPB, the 19 can only perform at 50. This is because the pilot simply cannot withstand more acceleration (turning, changing speeds, etc.). Since the (alleged) additional weight of the PPB isn't a performance bottleneck, it doesn't matter as much.

And we know that the PPB's additional mass is within that gap between the physical performance and pilot performance because the 19 and 21 had the PPB and still were pilot bottlenecked.



The point isn't that weight doesn't affect performance. That much should be obvious. However, since performance is limited down to the pilot level, the extra weight of a PPB is demonstrably absorbed. This doesn't mean ALL weight will be absorbed, it just means a certain amount can be.
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Old 2008-07-16, 17:16   Link #471
March
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Even if we acknowledge pilot skill, or lack thereof, it really has no bearing on the comparison if, as I've said, all other factors are equal. To my mind, pilot limitations are an unspoken rule in the context of this discussion. Regardless, if we assume the standard short-term g-force exposure limit of 20-35 g for the pilot, then we'd be talking about how two fighters of different weight compare within that range of tolerance, all other factors equal. So we'd want a fighter than can accelerate/maneuver/decelerate/transform the fastest within the tolerances of it's pilot.

Regardless, as I said weight is always a concern but it's not the only one. I had a discussion on another board about design priority in the valkyrie fighters and it's not just weight or performance but also function. For example, the VF-25 doesn't appear to have internal missiles. Now we could call that a disadvantage compared to last generations valkyries that did. But would you rather have a valkyrie with internal missiles bays or a much thinner redesigned valkyrie without internal missiles so that it could feature a new Full Armor system that can operate in all three modes? So there's lots to consider and even a small, not-so-heavy PPB system could mean the difference between achieving what you designed or not achieving it.

Anyway, here's some more pictures for the NMC and pin-point barrier discussions:
Thanks go out to DarkReaper of the Macross World forums

One for ReddyRedWolf
Spoiler for Macross 1 prologue fleet:


A composite picture for Wild Goose
Spoiler for Battle 7 pin-point barrier:
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Old 2008-07-16, 18:45   Link #472
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
Anyway, here's some more pictures for the NMC and pin-point barrier discussions:
Thanks go out to DarkReaper of the Macross World forums

One for ReddyRedWolf
Spoiler for Macross 1 prologue fleet:


A composite picture for Wild Goose
Spoiler for Battle 7 pin-point barrier:
Thanks

Each City ship is unique looking at the web domes. Then again what city planner would want an exact copy of the last city that was built. Unlike Macross 5 or Macross 7, Macross 1 had three fins instead of 2.

Macross 7 City seven may have been unique as it has only one city ship. Macross 1 had 4 city ships and Macross 5 had 3 city ships. Some were wondering why Macross 17 in Macross Frontier were double in the prologue. Multiple city ships may be in fact standard. Macross 7 fleet was unique as it cramed specialization and luxury into several ships.
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Old 2008-07-16, 19:21   Link #473
Wild Goose
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Let's not forget guys, that the primary defense of a fighter is to not get hit.

As for the lack of internal missiles, while officially the VF-25 has none, it seems that Gilliam fired 3 missiles at the Vajra red during Episode 1 broadcast. It's at 21:21-21:22 played at normal speed, smoke trails and rocket burn are visible and if you go frame by frame you can even see a missile body.

What I'd give for official stats.

Also, just because the VF-25 is the next gen fighter after the VF-171 doesn't mean it'll have a PPB. Consider: if pilots are going to turn it off most of the time and not use it unless they want to make their glowing PPB Punch attacks, then you might as well remove the PPB and slim down the design to mount a 3-mode Full Armor system, and give the pilot an EC blade for when he wants to go melee.
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Old 2008-07-16, 19:38   Link #474
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Let's not forget guys, that the primary defense of a fighter is to not get hit.

As for the lack of internal missiles, while officially the VF-25 has none, it seems that Gilliam fired 3 missiles at the Vajra red during Episode 1 broadcast. It's at 21:21-21:22 played at normal speed, smoke trails and rocket burn are visible and if you go frame by frame you can even see a missile body.
I've always had the impression that VF-25s tend to have some missiles stored internally in its legs. I might be wrong, but then again, we seen missiles from an unequipped VF-25, didn't we.

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-16, 20:14   Link #475
ChronoReverse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
Even if we acknowledge pilot skill, or lack thereof, it really has no bearing on the comparison if, as I've said, all other factors are equal. ]
The point is that it has nothing to do with pilot skill but rather limiters that are on the fighters. I keep bringing this up because that's one of the key differences with the VF-25 (and presumably the VF-27) in that it has greater performance with the FAST packs because of things like the EX-Gear.

This limitation should be considered a hard limitation because it's set higher than what most pilots can handle (for instance, Gamlin was astonished at what Basara can do) and also because the performance of the fighters even with the VF-19/21 were already far higher than even a Zentraidi can tolerate.
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Old 2008-07-16, 20:15   Link #476
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post

This limitation should be considered a hard limitation because it's set higher than what most pilots can handle (for instance, Gamlin was astonished at what Basara can do) and also because the performance of the fighters even with the VF-19/21 were already far higher than even a Zentraidi can tolerate.
That is true, except the Zents went on ahead and developed the FEIOS. What were they thinking? I don't know, but the FEIOS was one tough Valkyrie to crack!

- Tak
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:06   Link #477
ChronoReverse
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As time passes technology will improve. Certainly the latest model of the VF-19 would perform better (and cushion the pilot better) than the YF-19 for instance. The Zentraedi sometimes get some of the cooler toys too.


Besides, it doesn't really matter when the crux is that performance of the fighters are hard limited significantly below what the control surfaces can handle which in turn is below what the frame can handle which in turn is lower than what the terminal velocity and acceleration are. Even with the limits, the VF-19 could still have overwhelmed the lesser pilots and provide stress to the good ones.

Last edited by ChronoReverse; 2008-07-16 at 21:17.
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:23   Link #478
March
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
The point is that it has nothing to do with pilot skill but rather limiters that are on the fighters. I keep bringing this up because that's one of the key differences with the VF-25 (and presumably the VF-27) in that it has greater performance with the FAST packs because of things like the EX-Gear.

This limitation should be considered a hard limitation because it's set higher than what most pilots can handle (for instance, Gamlin was astonished at what Basara can do) and also because the performance of the fighters even with the VF-19/21 were already far higher than even a Zentraidi can tolerate.
I must admit, I'm not following. One, we don't yet have any stats on the VF-171, VF-25 or VF-27, so who can say what their performance is? Two, if the EX-Gear and Brera's cybernetics truly allow pilots to go beyond the 20-35 g limit, right there that contradicts the limit you're trying highlight

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I can't see a logic to it. This point has also run off and we aren't even discussing the +/- of a fighter-carried PPB. This has become a pilot g-force discussion, when it's clear performance is only ONE aspect to consider in a valkyrie with a PPB.

Digressing, I'm going to stick with my theory for now. I do have this nagging suspicion that Kawamori and Co. might include a PPB in the official stats for the VF-25 even though it's never been seen in action. But I suppose the same could have been said for the VF-171. If someone had asked me if the VF-171 had a PPB prior to episode 14, I would have said very likely not. So I'll have to wait for more Frontier and those damn stats
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Old 2008-07-16, 21:29   Link #479
ChronoReverse
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I wouldn't have brought this up a few months ago but I remember it being mentioned as the in-universe reasoning for the EX-Gears (and that the VF-27 has an even more advanced dampening system).

In any case, for the 25's and 27's, it's possible the newer inertial dampening systems have brought the disparity between the limiters (for the pilots) and the physical capabilities of the fighters close enough that a PPB no longer makes sense.




This does not change how in the past, it was not the case, and that the performance budget of a PPB was more than enough to absorb the cost of the PPB.

This was my original statement that weight considerations might not be necessary for the PPB. I never was trying to contradict you but was bringing up an additional factor.
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Old 2008-07-17, 09:50   Link #480
squaresphere
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Like everyone said, without hard numbers its really hard to argue one way or the other. Personally I like the removal of the PPB system based on cost. It definitely has a purpose and as it's been said, has been included in multiple versions of VFs.

If we take a look at the 19 and 22 they definitely have PPB, but at the same time both are pretty much spec ops fighters. IE they have more valuable pilots than the normal grunts so the extra cost of the system makes sense.

Lets also take a look a the nature of a PPB. It makes more sense on a less mobile platform like a battleship. The one thing that M7 had in place was the PPB were directed from the bridge making them non automated systems. If the same could be said of a VF's PPB then it could be more of a distraction if a pilot is trying to evade enemy fire. Like it was said before, the main defense for VF's is outstanding maneuverability not "tanking" ability.

Lets also take a look at the VF-25, it's designed as the replacement for the 171 as the main stay fighter of the fleet. With the exception of the diamond force, NUNS pilots tend to just get blown up. So why spend a lot of money on a fighter that more likely than not will get shot down. Now the EX gear and the higher mobility of the 25 will help the normal pilots survival rate with 1) better ejection system where they can fly back to base 2) allows them to push higher G's without having to be a WTFOMG type pilot.

As for the knife... I have NO idea :P
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