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Old 2008-07-17, 10:18   Link #481
March
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I think the determining factor for the PPB might be cost or design. Like the "composite material wing" of the YF-21 (the "morphing" wing, as some fans like to call it). An impressive technology to be sure, but it looks like it was far too impractical to mass produce.

I think many of the YF-19 and YF-21 technologies pushed the envelope a bit too far beyond what could be achieved in mass production. They were both highly experimental and flown by ace pilots. But when it came time to produce a more pilot-friendly variable fighter with technologies that could be mass produced, it appears the more conventional VF-17 Nightmare (refit/redesigned into the VF-171) was the valkyrie of choice.

In contrast, the VF-25 Messiah appears to be a truly next generation mass-production fighter. The VF-25 seems like a return to fundamentals; a superior all-purpose fighter as powerful combat-wise as the VF-19/VF-22 but much more versatile and adaptable for all the various theatres of operation. It truly is variable fighter made in the same forge as the original VF-1 Valkyrie; a workhorse with load outs and specialized equipment for any operational requirement.
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Old 2008-07-17, 10:45   Link #482
squaresphere
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^ I completely agree. Which lead to... what would be the next gen spec op fighter
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Old 2008-07-17, 10:45   Link #483
ChronoReverse
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We'll have to wait to see if the VF-171 really a PPB to determine that one.

That was what I had thought too before Ep.14, but if the VF-171 has a PPB (or heaven forbid, the knife glow really is a PPB), then the system can't really have been that expensive.

One possibility is the size (independent of weight) since the VF-25 is so thin. Still, you'd think they'd put the system into the FAST or Armor packs. And if the knife glow really is a PPB, then this is out the window too.
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Old 2008-07-17, 10:50   Link #484
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Just a side note, space performance aside the VF-25 had some wicked crazy atmospheric capabilities. In his duel with the VF-27 on the planet, Alto really pushed the 25 through some really crazy stunts way beyond anything we've seen the 19 or 22 ever do.

Honestly, I've always felt that Alto lacked the skills to push a super packed 25 in space performance but dam the boy was tearing it up in that fight.
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Old 2008-07-17, 11:18   Link #485
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What crazy stunts? Do you mean the stuff like the cobra (which is actually useless in real fighter dogfights)? Modern fighters like the F-22 can already pull stunts beyond the cobra.


Now what was really interesting was the "teleporting" trick the VF-27 used (even Alto gave a cry of surprise at that) to flip vertical and then get behind Alto.
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Old 2008-07-17, 11:40   Link #486
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I thought Alto's cobra was just a nod to the Flanker stylings of the VF-25. *shrug* While it's of dubious value in a real dogfight, you have to admit that the macross setting does make the cobra somewhat more viable - though it would have been better had Alto had some micromissiles to fire at Brera.

Also, the intake laser cannons are pointless. Nobody's using them at all.
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Old 2008-07-17, 13:04   Link #487
March
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Well, the VF-171 is a heavy variable fighter/bomber and heavy battroid since it's basically a VF-17 Nightmare Part Duex So it makes sense that it would have more weight than something like the VF-25 Messiah.

Regarding maneuvers, the cobra is somewhat antiquated and of questionable value in modern aerial combat. Though such a maneuver becomes a lot more lethal with a fighter that can transform into GERWALK mode in the middle of it

The thing I'm starting to love about Alto is how he pilots his VF-25 Messiah in a way very similar to Max in his VF-1 Valkyrie from the original series. Almost every time Alto flies he's constantly converting his valkyrie from one mode to the next, seizing the advantage of each mode as combat conditions change from moment to moment. The aerial battle between Alto and Brera on Gallia 4 was a great display of the fluid, dynamic action that makes the valkyrie so much fun to watch in a dogfight. I agree with squaresphere; that particular battle was a lot of fun to watch. I'm really impressed with the way the CGI has managed to capture so much of that traditional Macross action. The CGI feels so natural and so anime now that I don't even think about it any more

squaresphere
Probably the VF-27 would be the next generation equivalent of a special operations valkyrie. It acts more as a Strike Fighter rather than a regular variable fighter.
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Old 2008-07-17, 13:42   Link #488
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@About the PPB
I suppose the VF-17(1) would have more space than the VF-25 would.


But that won't explain the cost issue. In fact, a PPB on the 171 still implies that it's no longer expensive to manufacture (if it ever was).


And we already know that the VF-17 has a similar power overhead as the VF-19 (space performance is nearly equivalent, it's only the flight surfaces that hinder it in an atmosphere) so weight wouldn't have been an issue it might be for the VF-25.

In fact, it argues AGAINST weight being an issue since the VF-171 uses the EX-Gears too and thus would presumably have a smaller gap between the hard limits set and the absolute performance. This means that there's less space for something that's heavy to be absorbed without cost.



@About the dogfighting
I liked the dogfighting too, I just don't see any reason to claim the VF-25 pulled off stunts beyond what a 19 or 21 can do.
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Old 2008-07-17, 19:39   Link #489
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Actuallly, regarding the PPB on Diamond Leader's VF-171...

Has anyone considered that he has a PPB because he may be piloting a VF-171S? I notice that everyone's overlooked the possibility of him being in a Commander VF-171, which would have a lot more toys compared to the basic unit.

...thought. What if Diamond Leader is Gamlin? Older, wiser, and still kicking ass with GAMLIN PUNCH...

I disagree that wieght is not an issue in space. Weight will still be an issue because of the mass, which affects your inertia. Despite there being no gravity in space, weight - or rather, mass - is still very much an issue.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-07-17 at 19:49.
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Old 2008-07-17, 19:49   Link #490
March
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If it were a VF-171S, wouldn't it have 4 head cannons instead of 2?
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Old 2008-07-17, 20:12   Link #491
ChronoReverse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I disagree that wieght is not an issue in space. Weight will still be an issue because of the mass, which affects your inertia. Despite there being no gravity in space, weight - or rather, mass - is still very much an issue.
Here we go again.

Recall that I used Acceleration in my assertion not Speed. Obviously if you increase your weight, your Acceleration drops because of inertia.

However, the physical performance of the 17, 19 and 21 (not enough data for the 25 and 27 to make the same claim) was significantly greater than what the pilot can handle even with the dampeners. As long as the additional mass of a PPB is between these two levels, the maneuverability (which consists of the various types of accelerations a fighter can exhibit) would not really suffer. Besides the logic, I can support this claim with couple circumstantial pieces of evidence:

(1) The YF-21 and YF-19 had similar maneuverability despite a more than 1000kg mass difference indicating that the true limitation was ultimately what the pilots can withstand
(2) The VF-171 has a better dampening system (EX-Gears) and thus likely a smaller disparity between the physical performance and the hard limiters. It still manages to have a PPB


I did and do NOT make the claim that mass doesn't matter since that would be a silly claim that ignores physics. And we haven't seen proof that Over Technology allows one to arbitrarily ignore mass.
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Old 2008-07-17, 20:12   Link #492
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Lol yeah, there is that. Forgot about that. Ah well.
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Old 2008-07-17, 22:15   Link #493
squaresphere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
@About the dogfighting
I liked the dogfighting too, I just don't see any reason to claim the VF-25 pulled off stunts beyond what a 19 or 21 can do.
I'm not saying the 19 or 22 can't do the same stunts (according to the producer they (19,22,25) all have about the same performance) It's that they haven't been depicted doing a lot of aerial stunts. Even the fight between Guld and Isamu wasn't as flashy flying/transforming wise. course that's just my opinion
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Old 2008-07-18, 00:21   Link #494
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Ah I see what you mean now. Alto does fly really flashy =)
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Old 2008-07-18, 18:22   Link #495
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With both the VF-25 and VF-27 derived from the YF-24 I wonder if we'll ever see that baby in action.

Maybe as Sheryl's personal Valkyrie?

Seeriously though if we think about both VF-25 and VF-27's performances we can only guess that it can do what both can do.

Perhaps it can facilitate specialized packs like the VF-1, probably remotely control ghosts, and perform as good or better than the VF-19 or VF-22 as special op fighter.
Meaning like the VF-19 and VF-22 too expensive to manufacture and too high spec for a ordinary pilot to fly.

Frontier's LAI made into the VF-25 as an all purpose operations fighter, while Galaxy made it into special operations stealth fighter.

This makes me think LAI has a branch in Galaxy.
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Old 2008-07-18, 22:47   Link #496
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I wonder what Galaxy's civilians know about all of this.
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Old 2008-07-19, 03:54   Link #497
.Mero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
With both the VF-25 and VF-27 derived from the YF-24 I wonder if we'll ever see that baby in action.

Maybe as Sheryl's personal Valkyrie?

Seeriously though if we think about both VF-25 and VF-27's performances we can only guess that it can do what both can do.

Perhaps it can facilitate specialized packs like the VF-1, probably remotely control ghosts, and perform as good or better than the VF-19 or VF-22 as special op fighter.
Meaning like the VF-19 and VF-22 too expensive to manufacture and too high spec for a ordinary pilot to fly.

Frontier's LAI made into the VF-25 as an all purpose operations fighter, while Galaxy made it into special operations stealth fighter.

This makes me think LAI has a branch in Galaxy.
Kei's translations make me think that the YF-24's performance was bad, and beacause of that they underestimated the VF-25 wich was developed by a private company that did have it's roots at the YF-24

As far as Alto's flying skills they seem to get better or at least he starts to showhe has them a bit more.
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Old 2008-07-19, 08:09   Link #498
squaresphere
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Wait how do we know that he VF-27 was based on the YF-24. It doesn't any mention of this in the GG sub.

Last edited by squaresphere; 2008-07-19 at 08:34.
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Old 2008-07-19, 08:30   Link #499
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Yeah, GG translation made much more sense. It was basically "We based our predictions about how the Frontier/Vajra battle would go about the specs of the VF-24, but the success of SMS and their use of the VF-25 accounts for how our predictions were off.".
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Old 2008-07-19, 08:37   Link #500
squaresphere
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oh ok, that makes more sense. The only way I could see the 25 and 27 being some what related is if the NUNS created the 24 with what they had and mind and told the corps "make something based on this". That's highly unlikely as that's not how prototypes are usually used.

That being said I expect the YF-24 to make an appearance sometime later in the show.
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