AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-09-13, 02:49   Link #741
Danish78
Thread Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manila, Philippines
Not to hot on the F-22. Was never sold on the fact that it was superior to the YF-23 but that's off-topic so I won't push it here.

Still hoping if Galaxy plays a role in the final battles they have a mainline fighter other than the VF-171. Upgraded VF-5000s would be great or Ithekro's choice VF-4s. IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) would be the tech that differentiates Galaxy from Frontier VF-171s if we see em.
Danish78 is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 04:00   Link #742
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
For our world, superior aircraft generally justify the expense, if you can train the pilots to use it.

In Macross, the real high end fighters (such as the VF-22 and VF-19) are so advanced in terms of what they can do, that it takes a great pilot to justify using it over the less costly fighters (such as the VF-17 and later VF-171) A great pilot will be able to use the advanced fighter's advantages, while a regular combat pilot will only do as well as he would in a VF-171. thus the cost to product the advanced fighter is not there if your pilots can't use it. Newer fighters that are advanced, but still pilot friendly (such as the VF-25) are generally considered a better investment for large production runs over something like the VF-22 which takes great skill to use to its preformance edge.

Now the VF-27...that even more specialized, requiring cybernetics to even use. If you can afford the cybernetic enhancements to your pilots, then you can probably run with VF-27s, but they will be very expensive.

While a great pilot can get the most out of any craft, the extra edge the advanced fighters provide for these pilots generally justifies a limited production run.

As for Frontier vs. Galaxy colors being different... that is for us, the viewer, to identify who is who..not the pilots in combat. It is a style choice to aid the poor anime viewer, not a military choice.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 11:11   Link #743
Daigo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
That is for the military in question to consider, and to choose the "investment plan", so to speak, which mirrors their operational doctrine the most. Some armies prefer quality, while others trust in quantity. An old saying of Josif Vissarionovich comes to mind.
No, the plan is to replace the F-15 entirely in time. In all match-ups between the F-22 and the F-15, the F-22 completely dominated it with no losses. Therefore, the quality of the fighter justifies the cost.


Quote:
In Macross, the real high end fighters (such as the VF-22 and VF-19) are so advanced in terms of what they can do, that it takes a great pilot to justify using it over the less costly fighters (such as the VF-17 and later VF-171) A great pilot will be able to use the advanced fighter's advantages, while a regular combat pilot will only do as well as he would in a VF-171. thus the cost to product the advanced fighter is not there if your pilots can't use it. Newer fighters that are advanced, but still pilot friendly (such as the VF-25) are generally considered a better investment for large production runs over something like the VF-22 which takes great skill to use to its preformance edge.
That may or may not be the "in-universe" explanation for it, but the real explanation is to put the focus on the main characters and lets them have an unrealistic advantage on the battlefield. It's also the reason why the Ghost didn't completely replace manned fighters, when it was logical to do so. No one wants to watch an anime about an emotionless robot running combat missions. The human factor takes precedence over realism every time. It's also the reason why their helmets have those goofy see-through visors when real fighter helmets usually obscure the person's face partially or completely.

With that said, Macross is better at realism than Gundam is at least. The in-universe bigwigs in Macross are at least smart enough to mass produce good fighters like the VF-25, and VF-27 to a certain extent. They at least made more than one unit for each friggen model.

Quote:
As for Frontier vs. Galaxy colors being different... that is for us, the viewer, to identify who is who..not the pilots in combat. It is a style choice to aid the poor anime viewer, not a military choice.
I know, but your original statement tried to give an in-universe rationale for having different colors, which really didn't make sense.
Daigo is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 11:34   Link #744
Paul Hausser
Colonel General
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
No, the plan is to replace the F-15 entirely in time. In all match-ups between the F-22 and the F-15, the F-22 completely dominated it with no losses. Therefore, the quality of the fighter justifies the cost.
You are channeling American military equipment acquisition personnel too much, and inaccurately in my opinion. At 60 million dollars per seat, F-22 is a pricey ride, and I'd like to see US GAO agree upon replacing all F-15's with them. Also, other countries do tend to mix top of the line equipment with older, but still capable weapons, Switzerland for instance.
Paul Hausser is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 11:41   Link #745
Daigo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
You are channeling American military equipment acquisition personnel too much, and inaccurately in my opinion. At 60 million dollars per seat, F-22 is a pricey ride, and I'd like to see US GAO agree upon replacing all F-15's with them. Also, other countries do tend to mix top of the line equipment with older, but still capable weapons, Switzerland for instance.
Actually the F-22 is over 100 million, so yes it's expensive. Actually I just looked it up, and the price is listed at US$137.5 million. But I go by the facts, and the plan is to eventually replace the F-15 with it. Certainly, other countries use inferior tech simply because they lack the economy that America has, along with other factors (technological advances, etc).
Daigo is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 11:47   Link #746
Paul Hausser
Colonel General
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Ah, my mistake. Mixed up the total R&D cost in 2006, which was 62 billion dollars. Your cost per unit is quite correct, although, fortunately, should decrease proportionally to the amount ordered.
Paul Hausser is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 11:55   Link #747
Forceflow
Kyonko is not amused~
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cloudcuckoolander land
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to Forceflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
No, the plan is to replace the F-15 entirely in time. In all match-ups between the F-22 and the F-15, the F-22 completely dominated it with no losses. Therefore, the quality of the fighter justifies the cost.
In a one-on-one fight, no question there. However there is a reason why the tactic now known as the 'zerg rush' exist and is still a viable strategy. All it requires is a willingness of the organisation or country to spend lives freely to accomplish its objectives.

You can arm a highly-trained commando with the best gun in the world; but if he has too many targets and runs out of ammo, he too will die.

Real life example:
Spoiler for lots of text:
__________________

HHHNNNGGGG

"We want YOU for the Trap Army."
Trap Army Cap'n of Visual Affairs
Forceflow is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 12:04   Link #748
Paul Hausser
Colonel General
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
While Pz. Kpfw. IV's were not exactly "light" tanks, especially later Ausfuhrungen, your quote is essentially correct, Herr Forceflow. Of course, German tankers had means to reduce this disparity, but not every Panzer commander was Wittmann, Barkmann or Carius.

Mein Gott... look at us drifting. From Macross Galaxy TO&E to German tank production.
Paul Hausser is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 13:16   Link #749
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
The F-22 - F-15 debate...wasn't the first post on that actually the F-22 vs. F-35 debate. One of these two is very highly advanced, and the orders for them limited. The F-35 is to be a cheaper aircraft (multi-role they say) where as the F-22 is expensive and air superiority. If it remains that way is yet to be seen. Assuming that the F-22 and F-35 are not so touchy that it requires ace+ pilots, then they will replace current aging line fighters such as the F-15 and F-16 (and maybe even the F-18 and other naval craft if the Navy buys it).

However, on a different note. Are we expecting Macross-class showdown three (or four) way between Quarter, Galaxy, and Frontier (with maybe an alien vessel thrown in for good measure)?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 14:37   Link #750
Danish78
Thread Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manila, Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
However, on a different note. Are we expecting Macross-class showdown three (or four) way between Quarter, Galaxy, and Frontier (with maybe an alien vessel thrown in for good measure)?
Hoping for it! Though I do wonder how that would play out.....
Fast maneuvering not being a characteristic of NMCs; will they grapple or just exchange salvos from their big guns? I hope it will be good!
Danish78 is offline  
Old 2008-09-13, 23:52   Link #751
squaresphere
Macross Lifer!
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
if there is a throw down between Frontier, Galaxy and the Vajra. I just don't see how Frontier is gonna make it unless they're able to deply the MDE's before the other factions know what's going on.

That being said, if Frontier is aiming to take the planet, there's no why they can use the MDE's to take out ground forces. So in short, yes they can probably take out the space defenders but I just don't see them being able to take the planet completely.

Right now I'm really wondering about Galaxy's technological make up. I mean if all their pilots are cybogrized, could they all be based lined programed at "ace" level? We've already seen through Brera and Grace that they're physically more capable, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they have better spacial awareness and reaction time.
squaresphere is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 00:58   Link #752
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
If (big if) Galaxy has just there regular escorts and Macross Galaxy, while Frontier has their escorts, Macross Frontier and Macross Quarter...Macross cannon crossfire time.

Plus We know Quarter can move like a fighter (at least in scale with the capital ships) while in humaniod mode. We don't know what the robat modes of the other two Macross' can do except based on Macross 7...right?
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 01:06   Link #753
Paul Hausser
Colonel General
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Right now I'm really wondering about Galaxy's technological make up. I mean if all their pilots are cybogrized, could they all be based lined programed at "ace" level? We've already seen through Brera and Grace that they're physically more capable, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they have better spacial awareness and reaction time.
Unless we are taking some form of ghost-dubbing and mind control, I'd say Galaxy cannot pump out Roy Fockers en masse. Granted, cybernetics will allow for faster reaction time and more endurance to g-forces, among many other things, but will not grant instant competence at piloting. No skill chips here.. and these are crappy anyway, otherwise anyone could just put one in his jack and become instant Johnny Silverhand or Kerry Eurodyne.
Paul Hausser is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 01:08   Link #754
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Well I have a feeling that won't happen as Grace was inside Battle Frontier.

Yup she's going to pull a Sharon Apple on Battle Frontier.

Instead of masses of hynotized humans and Zentradi, a bunch of hacked Vajra.
ReddyRedWolf is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 02:56   Link #755
Danish78
Thread Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manila, Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
if there is a throw down between Frontier, Galaxy and the Vajra. I just don't see how Frontier is gonna make it unless they're able to deply the MDE's before the other factions know what's going on.

That being said, if Frontier is aiming to take the planet, there's no why they can use the MDE's to take out ground forces. So in short, yes they can probably take out the space defenders but I just don't see them being able to take the planet completely.

Right now I'm really wondering about Galaxy's technological make up. I mean if all their pilots are cybogrized, could they all be based lined programed at "ace" level? We've already seen through Brera and Grace that they're physically more capable, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they have better spacial awareness and reaction time.
They could probably find out the Vajra command control unit/place/area and MDE that since MDE only has a 50km radius (Little Girl in ep 22?). If that works and throws the Vajra defenses in disarray they could probably mop up the individual units easily. Its either that or raze the planet with a laser bombardment which is the last possible option since they do need the planet for colonization/survival.

Before that though they might have to go through Galaxy and if Grace has hacked the Vajra net- Galaxy controlled Vajra. How they get through will be a very fun watch.
Danish78 is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 13:14   Link #756
Danish78
Thread Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manila, Philippines
Any chance that after the conclusion of the battle and Frontier wins and gets to settle on the Vajra planet we get to see an airshow a la longer version of "All that VF" as the credits roll by?

It would be really great to see a continuation of All that VF since we haven't actually seen All the VF
Danish78 is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 13:55   Link #757
ipernorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish78 View Post
They could probably find out the Vajra command control unit/place/area and MDE that since MDE only has a 50km radius (Little Girl in ep 22?). If that works and throws the Vajra defenses in disarray they could probably mop up the individual units easily. Its either that or raze the planet with a laser bombardment which is the last possible option since they do need the planet for colonization/survival.

Before that though they might have to go through Galaxy and if Grace has hacked the Vajra net- Galaxy controlled Vajra. How they get through will be a very fun watch.
I think Vajra aren't a believable opponent anymore... I mean they are going to lose in a number of various way and the humantradi's superiority it's very clear. Putting the survival issue aside there is a much faster way to annihilate the Vajra than the one you mentioned. Put the MDE (not the 50 km version, the version which erased half Gallia IV) near the star of that planet and destroy a part of it. The star goes into disarray and goes supernova: I doubt the Vajra can survive that, no matter how much they can adapt.
Anyway another way is to disrupt their fold wave network, like you said: Ranka's voice does nothing more than that I believe.
ipernorris is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 14:04   Link #758
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Except her mood has something to do with the effect. Well, that was seemingly forgotten when she said "It's always worked". Writers sure don't let a little thing known as continuity stand in the way of writing the story they want.
Wesley84 is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 14:26   Link #759
Danish78
Thread Lurker
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manila, Philippines
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipernorris View Post
I think Vajra aren't a believable opponent anymore... I mean they are going to lose in a number of various way and the humantradi's superiority it's very clear. Putting the survival issue aside there is a much faster way to annihilate the Vajra than the one you mentioned. Put the MDE (not the 50 km version, the version which erased half Gallia IV) near the star of that planet and destroy a part of it. The star goes into disarray and goes supernova: I doubt the Vajra can survive that, no matter how much they can adapt.
Anyway another way is to disrupt their fold wave network, like you said: Ranka's voice does nothing more than that I believe.
Erm... They really need the planet. Frontier is short on everything and has very limited options to resupplying. They need to take out the Vajra or drive them off of the planet at least.

Galaxy (assuming they do show up) will not allow this as they mean to enslave the Vajra and maybe wipeout Frontier.

Anyway, a few more days and we'll find out for sure.
Danish78 is offline  
Old 2008-09-14, 16:39   Link #760
Ithekro
Space Battleship
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 36
Or in the general spirit of Macross, tame the Vajra through deculture and the two queens.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.