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Old 2008-09-15, 01:36   Link #761
Paul Hausser
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And all that will nicely lead to yet another "theme" commonly seen, not only in anime, but in other works of fiction as well - that man's greatest enemy is man himself. That the Galaxy is a melting pot of corporate interests, cutthroat robber barons even, is quite strongly implied, and that strengthens the aforementioned cliche.
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Old 2008-09-15, 02:25   Link #762
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Originally Posted by Danish78 View Post
Erm... They really need the planet. Frontier is short on everything and has very limited options to resupplying. They need to take out the Vajra or drive them off of the planet at least.

Galaxy (assuming they do show up) will not allow this as they mean to enslave the Vajra and maybe wipeout Frontier.

Anyway, a few more days and we'll find out for sure.
Does this change any thing of what I've said? I mean I know Frontier needs supplies, but this doesn't change nothing about humantradi's military might, and that the Vajra are destine to lose the war no matter what. The quarrel within humantradis are an entire different matter: for Vajra, in a logic scenario, there would be annihilation or enslavement.
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Old 2008-09-15, 06:43   Link #763
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Hopefully if Galaxy does come have them show some variety in their Valkyrie fleet.


Captain Wilen's bird (Where the heck is he anyway?)

YF-24 as a the mass production VF-24

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Old 2008-09-15, 07:44   Link #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Hopefully if Galaxy does come have them show some variety in their Valkyrie fleet.


Captain Wilen's bird (Where the heck is he anyway?)

YF-24 as a the mass production VF-24

Actually, Macross in-universe naming follows the US military naming scheme closely and hence from this, the designation, 'YF' would mark the craft as a still experimental/prototype vessel.

Only once when a craft has passed the testing stage is it given the 'VF' designation.
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Old 2008-09-15, 08:35   Link #765
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Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post
Actually, Macross in-universe naming follows the US military naming scheme closely and hence from this, the designation, 'YF' would mark the craft as a still experimental/prototype vessel.

Only once when a craft has passed the testing stage is it given the 'VF' designation.
Actually in the the Macross universe there an in between designation called VF-X.

Max and Millia flew the prototype VF-X11 during their days as Dancing Skulls.
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Old 2008-09-15, 13:32   Link #766
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Actually in the the Macross universe there an in between designation called VF-X.

Max and Millia flew the prototype VF-X11 during their days as Dancing Skulls.
The VF-X designation was used for the VF-X-4 and VF-X-11, but by the time of Macross Plus, the Project Super Nova birds are using the designations YF-19 and YF-21, which suggests that after the VF-11 the UN Spacey changes its designation scheme. In this case we follow the most recent data, which is Macross Plus and Frontier.
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Old 2008-09-16, 08:59   Link #767
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Moved posts to the Vajra thread. It's an interesting discussion, but please keep it to their proper locations.
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Old 2008-09-16, 12:54   Link #768
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Yeah... Where is Capt. Willen? Adding another question; where is the Dulfim and her crew?
Still another question/s- What ship class was the Dulfim? The Kaitos was a Deneb-class frigate/cruiser right? Did either ship not have a VF compliment? That would have answered what main VF the Galaxy fleet had.
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Old 2008-09-16, 21:15   Link #769
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here's another question, what island was LAI located on? I mean if they're still intact, couldn't they just make VF-25's for NUNS?
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Old 2008-09-16, 22:32   Link #770
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here's another question, what island was LAI located on? I mean if they're still intact, couldn't they just make VF-25's for NUNS?
Thay can't train new, regular and experienced pilots on new birds in a desparate situation like this.

Thus a familliar unit is upgraded. Creating a supped up variant.

Luca is technician who builds these Valkyries.

Alto may have the same knack to handle different units like Aegis Focker.
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Old 2008-09-17, 01:21   Link #771
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In the real world, it takes EIGHTEEN MONTHS to complete transitioning from one fighter to another, such as seen when the US Navy retired the F-14 and switched to the F/A-18F.
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Old 2008-09-17, 01:33   Link #772
Paul Hausser
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
In the real world, it takes EIGHTEEN MONTHS to complete transitioning from one fighter to another, such as seen when the US Navy retired the F-14 and switched to the F/A-18F.
Unsurprising, as each plane has different flight characteristics and avionics (Super Hornets being far more complicated in terms of modern electronics than Tomcats, despite the upgrades). I'll wager the problem is even more pronounced in Valkyries due to extra modes of operation.

Also, Wild Goose, how's kicking Abbadon's sorry behind? For a Warmaster, he's such a walking failure.
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Old 2008-09-17, 01:39   Link #773
Danish78
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Wouldn't the transition from VF-171 to VF-171EX be more akin to a real world fighter (F-18, F-16, F-15 take your pick) switching weapons loads? Like AIM-7 Sparrow to AMRAAM, dumb bombs to JDAMs etc. It's basically the same fighter so wouldn't familiarization be relatively short?

Was thread-browing in the Code Geass section and got to thinking. KMFs are developing an 8th-9th generation already?! In a span of what? 10-15 years? VFs have been around 40-50 years and what generation is VF technology at in 2059? I'm guessing 5th?

Last edited by Danish78; 2008-09-17 at 01:53. Reason: Adding a question
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Old 2008-09-17, 01:55   Link #774
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How good are drones?
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Old 2008-09-17, 02:00   Link #775
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Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
Unsurprising, as each plane has different flight characteristics and avionics (Super Hornets being far more complicated in terms of modern electronics than Tomcats, despite the upgrades). I'll wager the problem is even more pronounced in Valkyries due to extra modes of operation.

Also, Wild Goose, how's kicking Abbadon's sorry behind? For a Warmaster, he's such a walking failure.
Indeed it is.

Also...do I know you from somewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish78 View Post
Wouldn't the transition from VF-171 to VF-171EX be more akin to a real world fighter (F-18, F-16, F-15 take your pick) switching weapons loads? Like AIM-7 Sparrow to AMRAAM, dumb bombs to JDAMs etc. It's basically the same fighter so wouldn't familiarization be relatively short?

Was thread-browing in the Code Geass section and got to thinking. KMFs are developing an 8th-9th generation already?! In a span of what? 10-15 years? VFs have been around 40-50 years and what generation is VF technology at in 2059? I'm guessing 5th?
That's the point we're trying to make. The VF-171 to VF-171EX transition is similar to that of the F/A-18A/B/C/D to F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; its more or less the same, so the transition period is less. That said, you still need time to train and get used to the new mecha and how it operates.

As for Generations... no idea. *shrugs* In fact the VF-25 seems a bit of a throwback to previous generations, since it lacks the active stealth system, though it does have a PPB. Then again it is a Flanker equivalent....

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How good are drones?
Debatable effectiveness. The X-9 was good enough to outfly both the YF-19 and YF-21, but that was partly due to the advanced AI and the emotion chip that was installed in it. NUNS Ghosts have limited AI due to advanced AIs being banned in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident, and as we saw in Episode 1, they can be jammed.

To me, NUNS uses Ghosts in like manner to Predators; they're deployed to look ahead, recon, with some weaponry to fight back if need by, but aren't really that useful in combat. Note that the drones that get the most screentime are Luca's EW/ELINT drones.
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Old 2008-09-17, 02:13   Link #776
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Quote:
Was thread-browing in the Code Geass section and got to thinking. KMFs are developing an 8th-9th generation already?! In a span of what? 10-15 years? VFs have been around 40-50 years and what generation is VF technology at in 2059? I'm guessing 5th?
If we consider 'next generation fighter' as a craft producing a much better performance then the earlier ones, a performance leap, we would have three in total. VF-0/1 -> VF-19/22 -> VF-25/27. There were many adaptations and technology improvements over the past years but in my opinion only those 3 VF Fighters present enough potential to be called a next gen craft.

Then again, if we consider the military main force fighter craft as a basis of a next generation fighter we would have :

VF-1 Valkyrie
VF-4 Lightning III
VF-11 Thunderbolt
VF-19 Excalibur
VF-171, let's call it an adapted Nightmare

Next one would be VF-25

Quote:
* In fact the VF-25 seems a bit of a throwback to previous generations, since it lacks the active stealth system, though it does have a PPB. Then again it is a Flanker equivalent....
Can't agree with that. We don't know what systems VF-25 is equipped with at this point. Besides, I don't see any reason why a next generation fighter would be downgraded in department of it's technology. Mereover, 25 boasts a much wider selection of armaments and pack options. Not to mention the fact that the Full Armor system is now accessible in all 3 modes. The thing that surprised me the most about VF-25 Full Armor is that it is as fast as a regular VF-25F without any additions.

EDIT. I may be really stupid but I preffer VF-25 with a Super FAST pack rather then with Full Armor
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Old 2008-09-17, 02:27   Link #777
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@ Wild Goose
Yup, got your point the 1st time. Thanks for clarifying though.

@Urei
I lumped the VF-171 in with the VF-19 because it's a downgraded Nightmare but your list is pretty well thought out. thanks for sharing!
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Old 2008-09-17, 03:12   Link #778
Paul Hausser
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
That's the point we're trying to make. The VF-171 to VF-171EX transition is similar to that of the F/A-18A/B/C/D to F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; its more or less the same, so the transition period is less. That said, you still need time to train and get used to the new mecha and how it operates.
The Hornet / Super Hornet comparison is spot on. Both planes are similar in terms of general shape and in-flight characteristics. Still, Supers are larger, have more powerful engines, if my memory serves me right, and have very different avionics suite. Thus, in a similar vein, VF-171's and 171EX's are similar, yes, but the latter have undergone a modification program that is supposed to improve their performance. This makes the pilot transferring from a regular 171 to EX version learn new things, and sometimes relearn things he's already went through with earlier craft.

And no, I suppose we don't know each other. Although I have been enjoying hunting some Fallen in my youth.
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Old 2008-09-17, 03:35   Link #779
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Could the VF-25 be a more pilot friendly version of the VF-19 concept? (and hopefully less expensive) While it is the top end fighter right now, it seems to be designed to become a mainstay fighter rather than an elite fighter like the VF-19 and VF-22s were. The main improvement seems to be the ability to use armor in all modes, plus the new suit/controls system.

If the suit/controls system is standardized between the VF-25 and the VF-171, then pilot upgrading won't take quite as long since the controls are at least the same, while performance may vary a bit.

The VF-27 is much more specalized from all appearances, thus would make a good elite fighter...if the pilots are cyborgs.

Thus we have the following known main fighter types:

VF-0/1
VF-4
VF-11
VF-17/171
VF-25

Plus we have elite fighter for the last two generations:
VF-19/22
VF-27

The VF-0/1 is the basic "lets do this" fighter with alien technology fitted to an existing airframe type (F-14 basically). It serves well in the First Space War.

The VF-4 takes the lessons of the First Space War and improves the concept.

The VF-11 replaces the VF-4 after nearly 20 year.

The VF-17 (or actually the VF-171) eventually replaces the VF-11 on the front lines...likely after about 15-20 years in service.

The VF-19 is slotted to replace the VF-11 but is reported to be too expensive to manufacture and train pilots. I might imagine that is could be the mainstay fighter in other Colonial Fleets and whatever other fleet types Earth uses. It just happens that out here with Macross 21 and 25, the VF-171 hold that position...possibly because it was cheaper and upgraded with the new suit/control systems.

The VF-22 is proven to be way too expensive and require high grade pilots ro master it. Would makes a great elite fighter, but not enough could be fielded due to lack of money and more likely, lack of skilled pilots that can handle that design.

The VF-25 is a prototype (or perhaps an early production model) of the next generation mainstay fighter to replace the VF-171, which is about 15-20 years old as a design.

The VF-27...is mostly an unknown product of Macross 21's fleet.

So basically the VF-25 is a 5th generation variable fighter. Unless one considers the VF-1 and VF-4 to be the same generation (since the active service of the VF-1 was relatively short compared to the other fighters (2008-2020) with the VF-4 coming out in 2012
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Old 2008-09-17, 03:51   Link #780
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Originally Posted by Urei View Post
If we consider 'next generation fighter' as a craft producing a much better performance then the earlier ones, a performance leap, we would have three in total. VF-0/1 -> VF-19/22 -> VF-25/27. There were many adaptations and technology improvements over the past years but in my opinion only those 3 VF Fighters present enough potential to be called a next gen craft.

Then again, if we consider the military main force fighter craft as a basis of a next generation fighter we would have :

VF-1 Valkyrie
VF-4 Lightning III
VF-11 Thunderbolt
VF-19 Excalibur
VF-171, let's call it an adapted Nightmare

Next one would be VF-25



Can't agree with that. We don't know what systems VF-25 is equipped with at this point. Besides, I don't see any reason why a next generation fighter would be downgraded in department of it's technology. Mereover, 25 boasts a much wider selection of armaments and pack options. Not to mention the fact that the Full Armor system is now accessible in all 3 modes. The thing that surprised me the most about VF-25 Full Armor is that it is as fast as a regular VF-25F without any additions.

EDIT. I may be really stupid but I preffer VF-25 with a Super FAST pack rather then with Full Armor
Actually in episode 7, Alto in a VF-25F with Super Pack even had a hard time following Ozma around who was using a VF-25S with Armored Pack. It made it seem like the VF-25S with Armored Pack was FASTER than the VF-25F with Super Pack.
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