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Old 2008-09-20, 20:44   Link #821
squaresphere
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After looking at the specs for the VF25... those guys are some cheap bastards. NO missile bays? that's completely ridiculous considering it's missiles that kills 8 out of 10 no name pilots!

Though... I have a theory, maybe the VF25 can keep enough of the super pack on to use missiles after ejecting the rest of the armor... There has to be a reason why they included staged ejection of the armor.
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Old 2008-09-20, 21:07   Link #822
Daigo
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
After looking at the specs for the VF25... those guys are some cheap bastards. NO missile bays? that's completely ridiculous considering it's missiles that kills 8 out of 10 no name pilots!

Though... I have a theory, maybe the VF25 can keep enough of the super pack on to use missiles after ejecting the rest of the armor... There has to be a reason why they included staged ejection of the armor.
It appears that they can't use super or armor packs in an atmosphere though.
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Old 2008-09-21, 01:06   Link #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
After looking at the specs for the VF25... those guys are some cheap bastards. NO missile bays? that's completely ridiculous considering it's missiles that kills 8 out of 10 no name pilots!

Though... I have a theory, maybe the VF25 can keep enough of the super pack on to use missiles after ejecting the rest of the armor... There has to be a reason why they included staged ejection of the armor.
Its not actually ridiculous since the VF-1 from SDFM and the VF-0 from Macross Zero used external weaponry mostly on the wings. Plus IIRC, the VF-0 also used a type of FAST pack on the legs that don't affect performance of the VF-0.

Maybe an optional equipment similar to that Leg FAST Pack can be tailor made for the VF-25 so that it retians some armament other than a gunpod when in an atmosphere.

FAST Pack on Legs of VF-0 (encircled):

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Old 2008-09-21, 01:08   Link #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
After looking at the specs for the VF25... those guys are some cheap bastards. NO missile bays? that's completely ridiculous considering it's missiles that kills 8 out of 10 no name pilots!

Though... I have a theory, maybe the VF25 can keep enough of the super pack on to use missiles after ejecting the rest of the armor... There has to be a reason why they included staged ejection of the armor.
The idea is that it'll be used in space so you don't need internal missiles, since you'll be deploying with the Super Pack and the Armored Pack all the time. No internal missile bays simplifies things alot.

Besides, there's also the wing hardpoints; if you can hang nukes there, you can fucking mount MERs for missiles.

The VF-0's leg FAST pack is a combo micromissile launcher/conformal fuel tank. Incidentally, Kawamori based his idea off the proposed Fuel And Sensory Tactical packs being developed for the F-15, which would be conformal fuel tanks, and have additional sensor gear. In the end this ended up as the conformal fuel tanks on the F-15E, which only carried fuel, but had hardpoints for LANTRIN pods and extra ordanance.

Also, it is bullshit to say that CFTs do not affect performance: they do. Because it's more weight, it's more drag on the aircraft, plus the weight distribution is all off. Unlike drop tanks, which you can drop when you don't need them, CFTs cannot be jettisoned due to how they are emplaced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_Fuel_Tank

That said, aerodynamically CFTs have an advantage in that they fit the aircraft profile so the aerodynamics are more or less the same, and you free up hardpoints for more weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs) are additional fuel tanks, fitted closely to the profile of an aircraft, which extend either range of an aircraft or time on station with little aerodynamic penalty compared to the same capacity carried in external drop tanks.

Conformal fuel tanks have the disadvantage that, unlike drop tanks, they cannot be dropped when empty. This is because conformal tanks are "plumbed" into the aircraft, and can only be removed on the ground. Thus, when CFTs are empty, the aircraft continues to suffer the same aerodynamic penalty, with no benefit. However, to use the Typhoon as an example, an aircraft could carry a full weapons load and two 1,500 litre CFTs, whereas a Typhoon without CFTs would have to sacrifice at least two weapons pylons to carry drop tanks, reducing either range or weapons load.
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Old 2008-09-21, 01:18   Link #825
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Full Armor would only get in the way of internal missile bays. Purging it to use a couple of missiles more would be a huge waste. Besides, as Wild Goose stated, VF-25 is designed to utilize the packs rather then to fly without them.

Instead of making a good fighter with nice weapon capabilities they designed a super VF capable of changing from speed to weapon configuration with lot's of additional defense. In other words, a naked VF design is obsolete even with good armaments considering the fact that the next generation fighters can use add-ons in every form.
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Old 2008-09-21, 04:15   Link #826
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Thus, Macross weapon technology marches towards modular armaments and adaptable systems. Take a "naked" plane and add whatever you like, treating the whole thing as a super-hardpoint. Nowadays, the technique is used in naval design, with Standard Flex MRV's from Denmark, and LCS craft in the U.S. There are also proponents of ground vehicles built around such principle, Rheinmetall GEFAS being one prototype worth mentioning here.
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Old 2008-09-21, 04:53   Link #827
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Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
Thus, Macross weapon technology marches towards modular armaments and adaptable systems. Take a "naked" plane and add whatever you like, treating the whole thing as a super-hardpoint. Nowadays, the technique is used in naval design, with Standard Flex MRV's from Denmark, and LCS craft in the U.S. There are also proponents of ground vehicles built around such principle, Rheinmetall GEFAS being one prototype worth mentioning here.
The future of fighters and mobile weaponry lies in their adaptability in my opinion. A plane that has a lot of armaments and less adaptability options may have been good when superiority was decided with armaments alone. In other words, a fast, agile and maneuverable base for weapons without much durability over longer periods of time.

Frontier developed another concept of a Fighter. Instead of making a plane that has reasonable firepower on it's own they've build a machine that is capable of equipping different sets of additional armaments in great numbers in different forms. Not only that, it's also a clean and naked fighter, without any additional mass, with latest aerodynamics and avionics, fitted with monstrous engines and vernier thrusters that is able to outmatch any plane in dogfight using the minimum armaments it has. To put it simply, there is no reason to mount any additional mass on a plane with such performance as it's 58 mm Gatling gun pod is enough
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Old 2008-09-21, 11:22   Link #828
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About Full Armor Pack.

- 2 x Remmington ES-25A 25mm high-speed machine guns
- or 2 x Mauler RÍV-25 25mm beam machine guns (mounted left/right of intakes in Fighter/GERWALK mode, on rotating hip mounts in Battroid mode)

As stated in earlier posts. Those are mounted in standard equipped Messiah, F version. S, G and RVF seem to have it as well as it's a built it armament.

My question is, are those enhanced in Full Armor pack?

Spoiler for Taken from MMM:


Another thing, Full Armor seems to have two additional cannons, mounted underneath two wing boosters.
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Old 2008-09-21, 12:29   Link #829
grss1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
About Full Armor Pack.

- 2 x Remmington ES-25A 25mm high-speed machine guns
- or 2 x Mauler RÍV-25 25mm beam machine guns (mounted left/right of intakes in Fighter/GERWALK mode, on rotating hip mounts in Battroid mode)

As stated in earlier posts. Those are mounted in standard equipped Messiah, F version. S, G and RVF seem to have it as well as it's a built it armament.

My question is, are those enhanced in Full Armor pack?

Spoiler for Taken from MMM:


Another thing, Full Armor seems to have two additional cannons, mounted underneath two wing boosters.
IIRC, those cannons were seen in action in Episode 7. No idea though about its power.
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Old 2008-09-21, 13:14   Link #830
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all i can say is, if i ever become a billionaire, im going to make mass production queddlun raus.

i fail to see what the missing tech is asside from a long lasting fusion power source.
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Old 2008-09-21, 14:39   Link #831
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IIRC, those cannons were seen in action in Episode 7. No idea though about its power.
Well, Full Armor certainly does provide a lot of fire power and defence. I would hate to see it only as a missle storage.

Quote:
Its not actually ridiculous since the VF-1 from SDFM and the VF-0 from Macross Zero used external weaponry mostly on the wings. Plus IIRC, the VF-0 also used a type of FAST pack on the legs that don't affect performance of the VF-0.

Maybe an optional equipment similar to that Leg FAST Pack can be tailor made for the VF-25 so that it retians some armament other than a gunpod when in an atmosphere.
YF-19 and 22 also used additional packs during their atmosphere dogfight.
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Old 2008-09-21, 15:08   Link #832
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Spoiler for Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy:


I'm begining to think that Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy will have the exact same body but will only differ in bridge design.

They've sort of done this before with the VF-25 and VF-27. Sharing the exact torso.
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Old 2008-09-21, 20:00   Link #833
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Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
It appears that they can't use super or armor packs in an atmosphere though.
Ozma still has his Armored pack indoors in episode 2.
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Old 2008-09-21, 21:17   Link #834
squaresphere
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The main problem i have with the "naked" plane theory is that the VF-25's adaptability comes from the packs. If it needs to go into an atmosphere, it LOSES that ability. Sure, maybe it can be equipped with external hard point mounted weapons but the flaw becomes obvious, it would need to land some where and get re-equiped.

If there's a conflict over a planet the flaw becomes compounded. Lets pull out a historic trans-space-atmospheric fight.

The YF-19 vs the YF-21

If you replace either the 19 or the 21 with a 25, the 25 becomes extremely disadvantaged once it has to eject it's pack upon reentry.

Now, I understand the 25 was basically created not only to incorporate new tech, but it also needs to be cheap.
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Old 2008-09-21, 21:24   Link #835
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
The main problem i have with the "naked" plane theory is that the VF-25's adaptability comes from the packs. If it needs to go into an atmosphere, it LOSES that ability. Sure, maybe it can be equipped with external hard point mounted weapons but the flaw becomes obvious, it would need to land some where and get re-equiped.

If there's a conflict over a planet the flaw becomes compounded. Lets pull out a historic trans-space-atmospheric fight.

The YF-19 vs the YF-21

If you replace either the 19 or the 21 with a 25, the 25 becomes extremely disadvantaged once it has to eject it's pack upon reentry.

Now, I understand the 25 was basically created not only to incorporate new tech, but it also needs to be cheap.
An Armored Pack and a Super Pack have been made for the VF-25. Its entirely possible that later on LAI could as well develop an Atmospheric Pack of some sort. IIRC, in Macross 7 there were such packs used by the VF-11, 17, 19 & 22 in on of the episodes wherein said fighter made an assault on an Earth-like planet..
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Old 2008-09-21, 21:32   Link #836
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my point is that to over come the lack of missiles and the need to dock and get re-equipped, the VF-25 would need a trans space-atmospheric pack
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Old 2008-09-21, 23:31   Link #837
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Yes, in an atmospheric fight VF-25 would be at an disadvantage when faced with an enemy capable of the same performance with better armaments, so going against VF-27 would be quite reckless.

Then again, atmosphere poses a lot of problems and plane's full potential is greatly reduced during the flight. I guess LAI developed the most needed pack's first. If VF-25 is to be deployed as an official first line fighter I'm sure they would produce a lot of other pack variations.

Add. YF-19 and 21 used small packs designed to reduce drag and thus not to interfere with planes performance during the atmospheric fights.
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Old 2008-09-21, 23:52   Link #838
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Actually, based on the very first episode, it already showcased the VF-25 having internal missile bays.

Right after the red vajira breaks into Island 1, Alto's predecessor visibly ejects his super pack and flies right in. I'm kinda lazy to drag out screenshots but you'll see no missile hardpoints on his craft.

However to save alto-hime he unleashes a barrage of missiles on the alien. Based on this we can conclude that the VF-25 does have provision for atmospheric combat, albeit in a more limited fashion compared to space combat.
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Old 2008-09-22, 00:54   Link #839
CaptGloval
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
I'm begining to think that Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy will have the exact same body but will only differ in bridge design.

They've sort of done this before with the VF-25 and VF-27. Sharing the exact torso.
No surprise there.

There was some talk earlier on a battle between Macross-class ships. Although it really is cool and I want to see it, channeling my namesake, I'm not too keen on pitting two Macross-class ship against each other. They're too precioussss to be destroyed. Based on what happened in Macross Plus, it would be better to dispatch a VF or a crack team to take over the idiot in command of those ships.

There's also talk on Quarter joining in for three-way action. I wouldn't count this little guy out. It's faster and more maneuverable and might do the job on both Frontier and Galaxy.
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Old 2008-09-22, 01:27   Link #840
Hellbore
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Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post
Actually, based on the very first episode, it already showcased the VF-25 having internal missile bays.

Right after the red vajira breaks into Island 1, Alto's predecessor visibly ejects his super pack and flies right in. I'm kinda lazy to drag out screenshots but you'll see no missile hardpoints on his craft.

However to save alto-hime he unleashes a barrage of missiles on the alien. Based on this we can conclude that the VF-25 does have provision for atmospheric combat, albeit in a more limited fashion compared to space combat.
Official stats contrdict, so I guess this is a wierd case of a retcon or animation/directing error. OTOH, the kight not have decided on whether or not the Messiah had internal bays yet.
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