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Old 2008-09-22, 02:49   Link #841
grss1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post
Actually, based on the very first episode, it already showcased the VF-25 having internal missile bays.

Right after the red vajira breaks into Island 1, Alto's predecessor visibly ejects his super pack and flies right in. I'm kinda lazy to drag out screenshots but you'll see no missile hardpoints on his craft.

However to save alto-hime he unleashes a barrage of missiles on the alien. Based on this we can conclude that the VF-25 does have provision for atmospheric combat, albeit in a more limited fashion compared to space combat.
Actually there are no missiles bays. Check my previous post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=793

What we saw in episode 1 is most likely non-canon. It could have been an artistic license on the part of the director or some weird animation error. IIRC, in SDFM there was even an animation error were a VF-1 carried missiles on its vertical fins.
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Old 2008-09-22, 03:58   Link #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellbore View Post
Official stats contrdict, so I guess this is a wierd case of a retcon or animation/directing error. OTOH, the kight not have decided on whether or not the Messiah had internal bays yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grss1982 View Post
Actually there are no missiles bays. Check my previous post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=793

What we saw in episode 1 is most likely non-canon. It could have been an artistic license on the part of the director or some weird animation error. IIRC, in SDFM there was even an animation error were a VF-1 carried missiles on its vertical fins.
Point taken. Didn't look over that data before, silly me. =.=

Then its likely to be an animation error. Like the one that created the abomination that is the VF-1R (robotech).
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Old 2008-09-23, 08:29   Link #843
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Battle Frontier, VF-171EX variants, VF-171, VF-25
Spoiler for New Hobby Japan scans:


Translation of about the VF-25, VF-27 and VF-117EX


Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Mechanics.DX 10
Stats as per the article:

Pg 80
VF-25
Development: Shinsei Industry/ Macross Frontier Arsenal Original Development/ LAI Company technology [technological] support based it on the YF-24 Evolution [evolution from the YF-24].

Overall Length: 18.72 m (fighter configuration)
Empty Weight: 8,450 Kg
Engine: Shinsei Industry/ P&W/ RR made FF-3001A Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine (in space [the void of space], maximum thrust of 1,620 KN) x2
High manueverability thruster: P&W HMM-9
Maximum atmospheric speed: M 5.0+ ([at] 10,000 m, on account of the fuselage heat-resistance boundary. It is possible to reach satellite orbit with the normal specification(s))

Base weapons: 12.7 mm coaxial beam gun (Mauler ROV-217C) x1 (set in the monitor head), choice of either 25 mm high-speed machine gun [cannon] (Remmington ES-25A) or 25 mm beam machine gun [cannon] (Mauler ROV-25) x2, 58 mm Gattling gun pod (Howard GU-17A). The 25 mm machine gun [cannon] and gun pod are later refit with the anti-Vajra MDE warhead specification.

ISC (Inertia Store Converter): Shinsei Industry Macross Frontier Asenal / LAI Company self-development specification ISC/TO21

Special: possible to equip with Super Pack or Armoured Pack
Can cope with a fold booster.



VF-27
Development: Original Development by the Macross Galaxy Variable Fighter Development Arsenal based on the YF-24 Evolution [evolution from the YF-24].

Overall Length: 18.8 m (fighter configuration)
Empty Weight: 12,080 Kg
Engine: Shinchuushuu/ P&W/ RR/ MG made FF-3011/ C Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine (in space [the void of space], maximum thrust of 1,377 KN) x4
High manueverability thruster: P&W HMM-9
Maximum atmospheric speed: M 5.2+ ([at] 10,000 m, on account of the fuselage heat-resistance boundary. Possible to do M9+ for brief periods by protecting the fuselage with the pin-point barrier and energy conversion armour. It is possible to reach satellite orbit with the normal specification(s))

Base weapons: 20 mm beam gun (ROV-20) x1, choice of either (Rammington ES-25A) or 25 mm beam machine gun [cannon] (Mauler ROV-25) x2. 35 mm heavy beam machine gun [cannon] (Sentinel HBC/HS-35B) x2, BGP-01 (Greek Symbol for Beta) Beam Gun pod / Beam grenade x1, Internal-type micro-missile launcher (Bifors BML-04B) x4. The 25 mm high-speed machine gun [cannon] and micro-missile warheads are later refit with the anti-Vajra MDE warhead specification. The beam gunpod is refit to MDE particle beam specifications.

ISC: MG development IVC/GC 01 (Greek symbol for gamma)

Can cope with a super fold booster.


Pg 82
The connection of the VF-25 and VF-27

(text description of the flow chart:
VF-19(?) [gray dotted line leading to] YF-24 Evolution
YF-24 Evolution [solid black line leading to] VF-25 & VF-27
VF-22(?) [gray dotted line leading to] VF-27)

Drinking from the flow of the VF-19, the new generation VF, the prototype YF-24 Evolution comprises the base of the VF-25 and the VF-27. However, the leanings of the technology in the technology exhibition type of YF-22 is especially strong in the VF-27.


Appearing in the latter half of the story, the VF-171EX

(image captions:
Protector Specifications (for the type with what looks like FAST packs)
Normal (no things that looks like FAST packs))

The fighter used by the temporarily [briefly] assigned to the New UN Army main character Aruto. Employing [adopting] EX Gear, a strengthened [fortified] engine, and exchangeable [convertable?] MDE anti-Vajra weapons. It is a strong airframe that has a lot more anti-Vajra countermeasures in it than the regular VF-171. Regarding it's external look, only the colouring has changed; despite the impression that it is fairly different, excluding the (internal) equipment, there are not so many changes. By the way, because Aruto is serving as a platoon commander, he sorties in the Protector Specifications.
Basically the set up is this.

YF-19/VF-19 ---->YF-24 (Evolution)

YF-24----------->VF-25 and VF-27

YF-21----------->VF-22---->VF-27



The VF-117EX is just a pimped up VF-117 with EX-Gear, some new hardware and anti-Vajra weaponry.
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Old 2008-09-25, 01:59   Link #844
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Actually, beside from cool factor, I can't see why humanity need a transforming capital warship to be honest.

Traditional design has more volume, can fit in more weapons etc more efficiently than humanoid shape....plus humanoid can't that useful in combat in space. VF transforming have some logic since they need able to battle giant race in conception but transforming capital ship just did not make sense.

Humanoid shape also have less armour to protect many weak part like joints, traditional hull design did not have.

Ah well, just some thoughts.
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Old 2008-09-25, 03:02   Link #845
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Tradition probably. There first ship has a humaniod mode, but it was designed for much larger beings (and was basically a heavily armed defensive vessel or some such thing...a monitor type some called it). That mode might have been more for intimidation originally (I would think), and thus its purpose is not being served anymore. Thus tradition seems to be the main thing left.

Quarter, however, seems to be rather manuverable compared to other warships in Earth's fleets while in humanoid mode. The larger Battle Macross' have yet to show this kind of movement pattern.

Anyone else have a reason for a transforming warship of this type?
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Old 2008-09-25, 03:14   Link #846
ReddyRedWolf
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More like for greater coverage area arc of the SD cannon. These gunships suck at manueverabilty except the Quarter which is much smaller.

Size and length comparison done by Mr. March of Macross Mecha Manual.

Spoiler for Macross comparison in Attacker mode.:


Spoiler for Macross length comparison:
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Old 2008-09-25, 03:20   Link #847
Urei
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Mobility of the main cannon. This goes for the latest Battle designs. Turning a hand with a gun is easier and faster then turning the whole ship.

More weapon stations. The transformed mode has much more surface to cover with turrets and kinds of bays. Same goes for Monster stations. On the other hand this makes it more vulnerable to attacks.

Smaller and compact target is harder to hit but when we consider the actual size it doesn't make much difference. Most of the time the enemy force is able to move closer and attack so the size does not matter actually. Besides, Fighters give the cover and defense in such situations.

I would also say that it's large size is beneficial. The humanoid form is easier to hit but at the same time can prove to be an advantage. When a part is hit or destroyed it's easier to cut it off or seal then in a compact ship. If a submarine is hit in most cases it's fatal. If a ship with irregular size is hit I guess it would be possible to seal that part away and lessen the stress on other sections.
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Old 2008-09-25, 23:27   Link #848
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We had this discussion a while back. Basically it boiled down to any advantage having an arm to maneuver the cannon was offset by saying why not just build the cannon with mobility in mind, ie like a tank turret.

The general consensus was, humanoid form = Daedalus attack = awesome!
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Old 2008-09-26, 04:06   Link #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post

The general consensus was, humanoid form = Daedalus attack = awesome!
Battle 25's Daedalus Attack = Big Momma Falcon Punch


Oh yeah, when the Quarter slammed it's arm into Galaxy's cannon/rifle, there doesn't seem to be any PPB present anywhere on the arm. Excalibur Punch reference from Macross Plus?
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Old 2008-09-26, 04:46   Link #850
grss1982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoSpear View Post
Battle 25's Daedalus Attack = Big Momma Falcon Punch


Oh yeah, when the Quarter slammed it's arm into Galaxy's cannon/rifle, there doesn't seem to be any PPB present anywhere on the arm. Excalibur Punch reference from Macross Plus?
It seems so.



BTW...What happened to the Quarter's Gunpod?
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Old 2008-09-26, 05:02   Link #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grss1982 View Post
It seems so.



BTW...What happened to the Quarter's Gunpod?
Got hit by Galaxy's Macross Cannon.

Can't do this without the main gun?

Lets do this the old fashioned way with a destroids and Daedalus Attack!
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Old 2008-09-26, 09:11   Link #852
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The only way to damage a Macross of any size is the Dadelus attack?
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Old 2008-09-26, 12:34   Link #853
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The only way to damage a Macross of any size is the Dadelus attack?
No Battle 13 got blasted to bits by UN Spacy when Aegis destroyed its anti-FCS.

Mecha Porn.

Spoiler for Battle Galaxy:


Spoiler for Ghost V-9:


Spoiler for Macross 11, Home of Kaifun and Fire Bomber American:


Oh by the way it wasn't a Daedalus Attack that finished Battle Galaxy

Spoiler for BATTLE FRONTIER MACHIDA PUNCH!:
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Old 2008-09-27, 23:17   Link #854
ChronoReverse
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Yup, nothing like sheer brute force to take out your target.
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Old 2008-09-28, 10:19   Link #855
Daigo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urei View Post
Mobility of the main cannon. This goes for the latest Battle designs. Turning a hand with a gun is easier and faster then turning the whole ship.
Why not just mount it on a turrent then? Even so, the humanoid form still doesn't make sense. I don't see much point to the legs.


Quote:
More weapon stations. The transformed mode has much more surface to cover with turrets and kinds of bays. Same goes for Monster stations. On the other hand this makes it more vulnerable to attacks.
How? They are in space. What's stopping a cap ship from simply pointing its nose downward and exposing its ventral and dorsal surface to the enemy if that's an advantage?

Quote:
Smaller and compact target is harder to hit but when we consider the actual size it doesn't make much difference. Most of the time the enemy force is able to move closer and attack so the size does not matter actually. Besides, Fighters give the cover and defense in such situations.
I tend to agree that size doesn't matter that much in space, especially if we are talking about lasers that hit at the speed of light with pinpoint accuracy. But I still see no point to the humanoid form.

Quote:
I would also say that it's large size is beneficial. The humanoid form is easier to hit but at the same time can prove to be an advantage. When a part is hit or destroyed it's easier to cut it off or seal then in a compact ship. If a submarine is hit in most cases it's fatal. If a ship with irregular size is hit I guess it would be possible to seal that part away and lessen the stress on other sections.
Why can't that also be achieved with a non-humanoid form though?
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Old 2008-09-28, 13:05   Link #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
Why not just mount it on a turrent then? Even so, the humanoid form still doesn't make sense. I don't see much point to the legs.
Have you seen the size of the cannon? It's literally the length of the untransformed Battle Frontier. And what about up and down motion? Can't cover all directions with a turret. It's like firing a gun from a surface vs. firing a gun held in a hand of a standing human.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
How? They are in space. What's stopping a cap ship from simply pointing its nose downward and exposing its ventral and dorsal surface to the enemy if that's an advantage?
Wouldn't that make it more vulnerable? Exposing internal surface. My point is that if you have a more complicated shape you have far more surface to put your turrets or whatever on. A compact shape doesn't have that advantage. It can extend some parts or modify it's surface but the complicity of that caliber can't be attained that easily.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigo View Post
Why can't that also be achieved with a non-humanoid form though?
And the summary of all of the above. It can have any possible shape. Be it a dog, an alien, a bird or even a flying snow flake. It's more a tradition to have it human shaped then anything else. I'm sure you would rather fly a human transforming ship then a squirrel.
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Old 2008-09-28, 18:46   Link #857
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I think Reddy is the only person here I've seen mention the American Fire Bomber and Kaifun on Macross 11.

11 looks kinda awesome, and pathetic at the same time. Can't put my finger on why though.
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Old 2008-09-28, 19:06   Link #858
squaresphere
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It's the wings! mean what could they be used for other than lame decorations!

I did like how Alto's hand movements can control his vf 25. the gerwalk hand formation though would cramp my hand up >_<
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Old 2008-09-28, 21:04   Link #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabris View Post
I think Reddy is the only person here I've seen mention the American Fire Bomber and Kaifun on Macross 11.

11 looks kinda awesome, and pathetic at the same time. Can't put my finger on why though.
Well Macross 11 seems to be a cluster frack fleet.

City 11 Ohh~ So prickly~

The island ships doesn't seem to be connected to City 11.

It has 2 Einsteins and one Three Star.

And where the heck is its escort fleet? I only see one Uruga.

Don't tell me Lynn Kaifun is now President of 11.
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Old 2008-09-28, 21:28   Link #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Don't tell me Lynn Kaifun is now President of 11.
LOL, that doesn't sound so unlikely. He was always a political activist blowhard and had a knack for getting people to buy into his demogoguery. Also the humantradi sure love their ex-celebrity politicians. If so, being the NUNS liason there under him must be living hell.
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