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Old 2008-10-25, 20:45   Link #1241
SethEng
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
On a tangent, am I the only person somewhat agape at how this debate went from 'flying mecha with treads' to the physics of railguns and scholarly debates, with the odd incoherent interruption that seems to exist seperate from the rest of the thread?
After spending seven or so years on sci-fi debate boards, nothing that happens in threads surprises me. I just try to be less incoherent, but as my thrust/velocity mix up shows, I'm still off my game.
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Old 2008-10-25, 22:20   Link #1242
Haesslich
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After spending seven or so years on sci-fi debate boards, nothing that happens in threads surprises me. I just try to be less incoherent, but as my thrust/velocity mix up shows, I'm still off my game.
Let's just say this reminds me of why I don't go to SpaceBattles.com, minus the 'Star Wars versus Star Trek' threads. Or the Imperium of Man versus the Vajra.

One other thing to note - Overtechnology apparently provided humanity with both major advances in materials science (explaining the ASS-1/SDF-1's armor strength as well as those of the Variable Fighters) as well as new energy generation and storage systems, which is why energy weapons are feasable in the Macrossverse, even if humans focus more on kinetic-kill weaponry.
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Old 2008-10-25, 22:23   Link #1243
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Battle Galaxy carrier mode!

Spoiler for Battle Galaxy, Ghost V-9, Queen:


My goodness it's so evil!
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Old 2008-10-25, 23:07   Link #1244
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Battle Galaxy carrier mode!

<snip>

My goodness it's so evil!
It's the spikes and blades. A Macross Cannon gunship with a bayonette-like projection, spiked shoulders and head, unevenly blade-like edges on the carrier deck. It's like the designer was a Goth on an absinthe and crack bender.
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Old 2008-10-25, 23:21   Link #1245
SethEng
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Let's just say this reminds me of why I don't go to SpaceBattles.com, minus the 'Star Wars versus Star Trek' threads. Or the Imperium of Man versus the Vajra.
Oh, another Spacebattles vet? Small internet. I usually hung around the non Sci-Fi boards, because one can only argue with 40kers and Weberites and people who think Zentraedi gunships fire teraton level beams so many times. I never was a number cruncher, but some things are just obvious one hopes.
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Old 2008-10-25, 23:34   Link #1246
Haesslich
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Oh, another Spacebattles vet? Small internet. I usually hung around the non Sci-Fi boards, because one can only argue with 40kers and Weberites and people who think Zentraedi gunships fire teraton level beams so many times. I never was a number cruncher, but some things are just obvious one hopes.
Not a vet. Went in once to read a Star Wars versus Wing Commander thread though. Learned there that the only way to win was not to play. We don't know what the power output of a Zentradi's main cannon is... just for the same reason we can't figure out what the maximum output of an Overtechnology-tech based pile is, and how to make a meaningful comparison as a result.

Let's not even get started on the speed of Wrathbone-powered Eldar Titans or how Tyrannid Bio-Titans hold together (much less move) despite their incredible size and mass, especially if we're bringing in figures involving power-to-weight ratios and the tensile strength of the materials necessary to build a bone that won't be too heavy to move yet not break under the weight of all that...

If anyone thought the mechanics of a Monster were a headache...
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Old 2008-10-25, 23:45   Link #1247
SethEng
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Not a vet. Went in once to read a Star Wars versus Wing Commander thread though. Learned there that the only way to win was not to play. We don't know what the power output of a Zentradi's main cannon is... just for the same reason we can't figure out what the maximum output of an Overtechnology-tech based pile is, and how to make a meaningful comparison as a result.

Let's not even get started on the speed of Wrathbone-powered Eldar Titans or how Tyrannid Bio-Titans hold together (much less move) despite their incredible size and mass, especially if we're bringing in figures involving power-to-weight ratios and the tensile strength of the materials necessary to build a bone that won't be too heavy to move yet not break under the weight of all that...

If anyone thought the mechanics of a Monster were a headache...
Well it's not like anyone cared about important things like that, just how much energy output an imperial lasgun could do, which varied depending on who you asked and which novels they read, but regardless they could be recharged by throwing the clip on a camp fire.

The Sci-Fi vs. board was definately a leave your common sense at the door place, but it was fun to get the natives restless every now and then.

Just like this thread, I suppose. It's more like some people need to remember that we're not discussing real life here, we're discussing Macross and what they do in universe goes. Which means if they use a VB-6 it's because it works. We can argue over the whys and hows and all that, but simply saying it can't work is silly. I mean, the VA-3s are still around in the 2040s, even if being used by pirates, and their primary role was to be transformable bomb trucks. Obviously some UN Spacy brass though they needed one, even if we never see major fighting on the ground any more.
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Old 2008-10-26, 00:59   Link #1248
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by SethEng View Post
Well it's not like anyone cared about important things like that, just how much energy output an imperial lasgun could do, which varied depending on who you asked and which novels they read, but regardless they could be recharged by throwing the clip on a camp fire.
I don't even want to imagine the mechanics of those 'liquid-metal' batteries and how they could effectively transform almost any form of energy - thermal, direct-current, solar - into power, with the type of energy not mattering quite as much as the amount of it and the length of time required to recharge.

For the record, I stick with the Gaunt's Ghosts depictions of lasguns, especially with the hotshots and their 'extra-juiced' packs which were designed for higher outputs at the cost of overall capacity. Emperor help anyone trying to figure out why He issued His Imperial Guard lasguns several millenia after He was interred in the Golden Throne. It's not like He himself didn't have the technology for it, during the early Crusades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SethEng View Post
Just like this thread, I suppose. It's more like some people need to remember that we're not discussing real life here, we're discussing Macross and what they do in universe goes. Which means if they use a VB-6 it's because it works. We can argue over the whys and hows and all that, but simply saying it can't work is silly. I mean, the VA-3s are still around in the 2040s, even if being used by pirates, and their primary role was to be transformable bomb trucks. Obviously some UN Spacy brass though they needed one, even if we never see major fighting on the ground any more.
Actually, there was quite a bit of ground fighting during VF-X-2, even if we spent most of our time as Aegis Focker in space (or the odd underwater) missions. The ground-combat factor was the primary reason that all Variable Fighters have a Battroid mode... even the VB-6 (even if the mode is technically a Destroid mode). It's just that most people come into Macross for the aerospace fighter combat and massive capital ship engagements... and of course, the fact that they try to keep the enemy from landing a lot of troops in the first place on their homes and businesses (and the civillians who operate and live in them). That's also why the VB-6 exists, really - to provide indirect fire missions on the ground with the secondary capability for anti-air and direct-fire support.
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Old 2008-10-26, 01:52   Link #1249
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Actually, there was quite a bit of ground fighting during VF-X-2, even if we spent most of our time as Aegis Focker in space (or the odd underwater) missions. The ground-combat factor was the primary reason that all Variable Fighters have a Battroid mode... even the VB-6 (even if the mode is technically a Destroid mode). It's just that most people come into Macross for the aerospace fighter combat and massive capital ship engagements... and of course, the fact that they try to keep the enemy from landing a lot of troops in the first place on their homes and businesses (and the civillians who operate and live in them). That's also why the VB-6 exists, really - to provide indirect fire missions on the ground with the secondary capability for anti-air and direct-fire support.
Ah, I never got the chance to play either of the VF-X games, so I'm used to the VFs being used primarily in space, which is probably the main concern of the designers. After all, all of the major alien threats have been primarily space borne. Still, fighting on the ground and in the atmosphere are obviously major concerns. There'd be no reason to use forward swept wings otherwise, and that's probably why there's only two VFs with them. Isamu's record in Plus seems to indicate that there is fighting on the colonized planets or between them or involving them, so from doctrinal point of view, keeping the Battroid mode still makes sense.

Transforming capital ships are a bit harder to justify, but navies do like their tradition. And sometimes, you just have to punch another capital ship.
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Old 2008-10-26, 02:12   Link #1250
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Transforming capital ships are a bit harder to justify, but navies do like their tradition. And sometimes, you just have to punch another capital ship.
Transforming fighters and carriers are their signature along with colony ships.

At least they didn't build this monster in the SK canon.

Macross Cannon Class




According to computation it's 4000 meters to 5400 meters in legnth.
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Old 2008-10-26, 02:26   Link #1251
Haesslich
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Transforming fighters and carriers are their signature along with colony ships.

At least they didn't build this monster in the SK canon.

Macross Cannon Class




According to computation it's 4000 meters to 5400 meters in legnth.
Transforming Macross-class and New Macross-class vehicles (and now the Quarter) seem to be more a legacy of the Protoculture than anything else... especially with the technologies left aboard ASS-1, which were originally Protoculture-derived, IIRC. Humanoid forms seem to be inherent to the mindset which developed them, perhaps due to their fear/worship of the Vajra queen-form.

Mind you, the New Macross Class ships aren't exactly small either at nearly 1600m long (IIRC) with 700-800m-long Macross Cannons.... and the scary part of this? Since the Gunships appear to be a seperate self-contained unit, there's no real reason a single NMC-class ship couldn't carry TWO Macross Cannons in Battle Mode, in theory. The question of where you'd stick the second ship when it's not in that mode is the one that needs answering.
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Old 2008-10-26, 02:45   Link #1252
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Well it is a concensus at MW and I agree with them due to screen evidence that the Macross Cannon is larger than what the RPG books wrote.

It had Zentradi ships besides it for crying out loud.

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Old 2008-10-26, 03:05   Link #1253
Haesslich
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Well it is a concensus at MW and I agree with them due to screen evidence that the Macross Cannon is larger than what the RPG books wrote.

It had Zentradi ships besides it for crying out loud.
The problem with that image is that it doesn't provide any decent perspective shots to compare it with the Zentradi ships beside it. It'd be better if we had a side-on shot of a Zentradi ship directly beside or below, so we could rule out any possible errors due to the angle and the relative sizes of ships which would be closer/farther away from the Macross Cannon.

Not that it helped them against a massive enemy swarm... but that's pretty much the Achilles heel of any large vessel with a big gun when faced with numerous smaller targets which can outmaneuver it. Remember the reason why battleships are no longer 'standard issue' with modern navies, a philosophy which seems to have been carried across to the Macross universe with the predominance of carrier-centric strike groups that have destroyers and the odd battleship (or more often, cruisers) escorting the carriers who represent the main striking force of a fleet. Of course, arming those carriers with huge ship/fleetkiller weapons that wouldn't be too out of place on a battleship probably has something to do with that as well...

Edit: Thank god I kept the force figures handy in a separate file.

Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-26 at 04:50.
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Old 2008-10-26, 10:02   Link #1254
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Transforming Macross-class and New Macross-class vehicles (and now the Quarter) seem to be more a legacy of the Protoculture than anything else... especially with the technologies left aboard ASS-1, which were originally Protoculture-derived, IIRC. Humanoid forms seem to be inherent to the mindset which developed them, perhaps due to their fear/worship of the Vajra queen-form.

Mind you, the New Macross Class ships aren't exactly small either at nearly 1600m long (IIRC) with 700-800m-long Macross Cannons.... and the scary part of this? Since the Gunships appear to be a seperate self-contained unit, there's no real reason a single NMC-class ship couldn't carry TWO Macross Cannons in Battle Mode, in theory. The question of where you'd stick the second ship when it's not in that mode is the one that needs answering.
We know that gunships are capable of independant operation..... maybe have one docked with the NMC and one docked with the City. The Battle Gunship's placement and use is obvious; the City Gunship could be dispatched to provide gunship firepower support for the City module incase the carrier is preoccupied... and of course, for dual wielding.

Bringing MOAR DAKKA to the Macross verse .
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Old 2008-10-26, 17:29   Link #1255
Haesslich
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Bringing MOAR DAKKA to the Macross verse .
The Monster is MORE DAKKA by virtue of its very existence. The VB-6 Konig Monster is MORE DAKKA in a much more mobile package, which is probably why the team's medic got it. Major Ozma Lee gets himself hurt using knives against Vajra, while the doc who puts him back together lobs reaction warheads at them.
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Old 2008-11-02, 17:42   Link #1256
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Um sorry for the question but what is the fold thing exactly? I tried looking it up on wiki but it just confused me
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Old 2008-11-02, 18:02   Link #1257
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Um sorry for the question but what is the fold thing exactly? I tried looking it up on wiki but it just confused me
Fold is Macross' method of Faster-than-Light travel, including transportation and communication. However, the human version is not perfect, and can be interfered by obstacles. The Vajra version however, bypasses everything, and their ability to fold is almost real-time.

- Tak
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Old 2008-11-02, 20:41   Link #1258
Haesslich
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Also, if you can find one online, check out the opening introduction for Episode 6 of Macross Frontier, which gives a nice 'for beginners' summary of the process, which explains what Tak did above, but with nice computer animation.
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Old 2008-11-03, 04:55   Link #1259
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Update on the Macross Cannon. According to the Macross Chronicle vol 8, the Macross Cannon has a length of 6000 meters.

That's longer than City 7!
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Old 2008-11-03, 07:42   Link #1260
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Update on the Macross Cannon. According to the Macross Chronicle vol 8, the Macross Cannon has a length of 6000 meters.

That's longer than City 7!
6000 meters???

That's 6Km or 3.75 miles ! !
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