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Old 2008-11-03, 09:42   Link #1261
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
6000 meters???

That's 6Km or 3.75 miles ! !
Yeah it pretty much dwarfs the Macross Class (1200 meters), the New Macross Class (1510 meters) and the Macross Quarter (400 meters).

Not mention four Nupetiet-Vergnitzs sized Macross cannons.

Where the said classes have only one.
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Old 2008-11-03, 11:50   Link #1262
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Originally Posted by Bad wolf View Post
Um sorry for the question but what is the fold thing exactly? I tried looking it up on wiki but it just confused me
I'm unaware what is described in the wikipedia entry for space fold, but I've built an entry myself for the Macropedia Section of my website. Perhaps it might help explain the process.

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Fold

A short hand term for the OverTechnology of super-light-velocity spatial displacement. Fold travel allows a spacecraft to enter super dimension space and traverse vast interstellar distances nearly instantaneously. A fold first swaps the location of the spacecraft with super dimension space and then swaps super dimension space with the space at the destination, depositing the spacecraft in the process. During the events of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, First Lieutenant Misa Hayase describes the passage of time during a fold as an hour passing in super dimension space equivalent to the passage of approximately ten days in normal space. When initiating a fold to super dimension space the term "fold in" is used. When a spacecraft arrives at the destination by departing super dimension space the term "defold" (or "fold out") is used.
Hope that helps.
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Old 2008-11-03, 13:06   Link #1263
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Thanks. So just to make sure I've got this right "super dimension space" is that place thats all pink and stuff*ugh I sound like an idiot explaining it like that* that they're in after the portal opens up?
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Last edited by Bad wolf; 2008-11-03 at 16:15.
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Old 2008-11-03, 18:10   Link #1264
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Originally Posted by Bad wolf View Post
Thanks. So just to make sure I've got this right "super dimension space" is that place thats all pink and stuff*ugh I sound like an idiot explaining it like that* that they're in after the portal opens up?
Yeah, that's the space. It's basically hyperspace... although one thing I will have to note, in regard to the Wiki article, is that current (as of Macross Frontier) spacefold systems are much, much faster than the 'first gen' ones used in the original Macross series - so Misa Hayase's 'one hour of fold space = ten days of normal spacetime' no longer really applies.
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Old 2008-11-03, 23:24   Link #1265
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Update on the Macross Cannon. According to the Macross Chronicle vol 8, the Macross Cannon has a length of 6000 meters.

That's longer than City 7!
That is one big penis. Freud will be proud.
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Old 2008-11-03, 23:25   Link #1266
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That is one big penis. Freud will be proud.
Isn't that the hole in the ground weapon they used to wipe out half the invading fleet in Macross?
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Old 2008-11-04, 00:21   Link #1267
March
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Originally Posted by Bad wolf View Post
Thanks. So just to make sure I've got this right "super dimension space" is that place thats all pink and stuff*ugh I sound like an idiot explaining it like that* that they're in after the portal opens up?
In Macross Frontier, yes. Super dimension space is the pink/blue/white swirling realm we see in the show. The portals are simply the swapping process between space and super dimension space.

Super Dimension Space (including the way a ship enters/exits super dimension space) is depicted differently in every Macross series, but each process achieves the same result. Macross Frontier is more visual with super dimension space because a) its the first time in a Macross series where super dimension space has been integral to the plot and b) because CGI allows for all kinds of really pretty visual effects.

Haesslich
Calling fold space "hyperspace" is an incorrect analogy, at least in the strictest sense. Hyperspace, as it is shown/described in most science fiction, is a realm where traditional laws of physics don't apply and traveling a kilometer in Hyperspace gets one much, much farther than traveling a kilometer in real space.

In the case of the Macross space fold, all that is being done in a "fold effect" is swapping space between two dimensions; real space and super dimension space. The actual ship itself need not be in motion. In fact, many of the Macross shows have depicted ships space folding with no motion at all. Ships simply disappear from real space and reappear elsewhere, all while not having moved a centimeter.

In fact, one could even call FTL travel in Macross incidental. The actual process is space swapping; the ship just happens to be in the same place where two areas of space are being swapped and is thus displaced as a byproduct of the phenomenon

I think at it's most accurate, super dimension space would best be described as "convenient space", a catchall term for any dimension/realm that is integral to the function of a Faster-Than-Light technology science fiction. Hyperspace, subspace, quasispace, slipstream...they are all just conveniently invented space which somehow bypasses the laws of physics to allow FTL travel in their respective universes.
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Old 2008-11-04, 00:39   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
6000 meters???

That's 6Km or 3.75 miles ! !
Macross Cannon Class: When you absolutely, positively have to annihilate something.
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Old 2008-11-04, 00:39   Link #1269
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So...if it just moves things from real space to the dimention space then back it why wouldn't it be instant insted of the one hour fold space=10 days real space?
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Old 2008-11-04, 01:20   Link #1270
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Originally Posted by March View Post
Haesslich
Calling fold space "hyperspace" is an incorrect analogy, at least in the strictest sense. Hyperspace, as it is shown/described in most science fiction, is a realm where traditional laws of physics don't apply and traveling a kilometer in Hyperspace gets one much, much farther than traveling a kilometer in real space.

In the case of the Macross space fold, all that is being done in a "fold effect" is swapping space between two dimensions; real space and super dimension space. The actual ship itself need not be in motion. In fact, many of the Macross shows have depicted ships space folding with no motion at all. Ships simply disappear from real space and reappear elsewhere, all while not having moved a centimeter.

In fact, one could even call FTL travel in Macross incidental. The actual process is space swapping; the ship just happens to be in the same place where two areas of space are being swapped and is thus displaced as a byproduct of the phenomenon

I think at it's most accurate, super dimension space would best be described as "convenient space", a catchall term for any dimension/realm that is integral to the function of a Faster-Than-Light technology science fiction. Hyperspace, subspace, quasispace, slipstream...they are all just conveniently invented space which somehow bypasses the laws of physics to allow FTL travel in their respective universes.
Your definition depends on the fiction in question - hyperspace has been seen as 'another dimension', and that's it. In Star Wars, it's a realm where you move faster and then move THROUGH in order to get from place to place. With something like say, Battletech, it's a realm you tap which effectively switches a ship from location A to location B without crossing the intervening realspace in between... or crossing any space at all.

Macross seems to make it a hybrid of the two concepts - you basically teleport, but it's not instantaneous AND there are limits to how far you can teleport because of energy costs that increase sharply the farther away that second point is as well as issues with the surrounding higher-dimensional space around your normal-space area (like fold faults).. and unlike traditional teleport-style jump drives there is a subjective period between entering spacefold and leaving it which is experienced... much like the more traditional 'warp' or 'hyperdrives' of other science fiction, as seen in the original series as well as during the long jump of Episode 18.

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Originally Posted by Bad wolf View Post
So...if it just moves things from real space to the dimention space then back it why wouldn't it be instant insted of the one hour fold space=10 days real space?
That ratio is inaccurate for current (as of 2059) fold drives; the figure Misa derived was based on the first-gen fold systems they had available. And the other issue here is that you may disappear from point A and reappear at point B, but while you don't travel through normal space you do effectively travel through time due to the fact that it's not an instantaneous method of transport.
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Old 2008-11-04, 01:23   Link #1271
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So basicall a Wave Motion Engine.
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Old 2008-11-04, 03:14   Link #1272
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Most probably a teleport analogy fits the best. The end result is the same though the process and it's characteristics are vastly different. I wonder about the time spent while Folding. Misa's analogy gives us a feel of the passage of time but what about the distance.

Maybe something like this: If a ship was able to travel at light speed it would cross a certain distance within, lets say, an hour. That would be the maximum distance it would achieve with the maximum speed possible.

A Fold swaps space but the process takes time, especially if the designated space is far away, thus there exists time you have to spend while folding. This inclines that the passage of time is different in that dimension. Let's say that you spend an hour in a Fold. This would shift your position for a certain amount we don't know of. Taking what Misa said we could assume that you have traveled the same distance as while flying for 10 days at maximum speed a ship is capable to produce while in normal space?
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Old 2008-11-04, 12:47   Link #1273
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Hmmm. To use the older Wave Motion Engine based logic on Macross. A jump is between two points in space-time, the engine breaks the fabric of space (folding space) so that the ship moves from one point of a space to another (the WME model used time-space as a wave form (they even said this was an over simplification), thus was jumping from wave top to wave top, saving time. Most early warps lasted a minute of real time, but since they (Space Battleship Yamato) was the first human vessel to do such a thing, they were being careful, and space was uncharted. Later improvements, and open spaces (such as between galaxies) allowed for "continuos" space warps where the ship would basically warp, drop out of warp, and then warp again a moment later to cover distances of say 400,000 light years in a relative short period of time (film: Be Forever, Yamato).

The principle of Macross' fold technology seems to be close to this model of space travel. Also in a respect, the faster-than-light travel of the Dune universe. Traveling, without moving. This is unlike the Star Trek method, where a vessel moves through "subspace" in real time and can interact with objects in realspace while at Warp speeds. I am unsure if this is close to the Star Wars version of hyperspace, since it is difficult to deturmine just what it is doing. It is assumed that the vessel is moving in an alterate space that is "smaller" than "realspace". However the speed of such things is unclear. One would suggest that the speed of a vessel in hyperspace would be based on the hyperdrives speed, but others might suggest that "speed" in hyperspace in actually based on how good one's navigtion computer is, since you still have to navigate around the hyperspace shadows of planetary and stellar objects, or be destroyed (or just pulled back into normal space, depending on the story).
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Old 2008-11-04, 13:14   Link #1274
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Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Your definition depends on the fiction in question

That ratio is inaccurate for current (as of 2059) fold drives; the figure Misa derived was based on the first-gen fold systems they had available. And the other issue here is that you may disappear from point A and reappear at point B, but while you don't travel through normal space you do effectively travel through time due to the fact that it's not an instantaneous method of transport.
Which is why labeling super dimension space as hyperspace by analogy is not a good idea, IMO. Not only because hyperspace is too specific, but because hyperspace functions differently in different fiction. Hyperspace isn't telling us anything specifically relevant to super dimension space in the Macross universe, so I think it's best to be specific about fold space and avoid hyperspace as an analogy.

The L.A.I. Fold Booster and it's significantly reduced time factor is only a recent development in the Macross universe, so it's best to keep the original description of fold travel around so as to unify the continuity of the Macross franchise (which now spans 3 television series, 6 OVAs and 3 movies).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad wolf View Post
So...if it just moves things from real space to the dimention space then back it why wouldn't it be instant insted of the one hour fold space=10 days real space?
Because while distance is now a much less significant factor in the equation of interstellar travel, factors like energy and most importantly time are still relevant. Thus it still takes time to swap space with super dimension space and it still takes a certain amount of energy. Fold travel is fast, but not instantaneous, only near-instantaneous and the farther you go, the more time and energy become a factor. Thus longer periods of time will be spent within super dimension space and greater amounts of energy will be required to make longer trips.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Hmmm. To use the older Wave Motion Engine based logic on Macross.
I'm not meaning to be difficult, but may I ask what possible relevance there is to discussing all these widely varied methods of fictional Faster-Than-Light (FTL) travel in the context of understanding super dimension space in Macross? We should be helping fans understand how space folding works in Macross, not "how space folding in Macross DOESN'T work like this franchise or that franchise". Any similarities between franchises are only in the vaguest sense and I would think specific answers would best answer the questions being asked, IMO.

Last edited by March; 2008-11-04 at 13:26.
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Old 2008-11-04, 13:21   Link #1275
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Hmm...so time y spent to travel distance x in super dimensional space is less than the time z needed to travel the same distance x in real space. Though does this mean that when you traveled for y time in super dimensional space z time still passed in real space? Like in Gunbuster?
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Old 2008-11-04, 13:32   Link #1276
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Hmm...so time y spent to travel distance x in super dimensional space is less than the time z needed to travel the same distance x in real space. Though does this mean that when you traveled for y time in super dimensional space z time still passed in real space? Like in Gunbuster?
No. There is no mention of a direct correlation between conventional "relativistic" space travel and the extended time that passes for everyone else outside of super dimension space. The time difference Misa speaks of is only in the context of space fold travel; no reference or comparison is made to relativistic travel.

Again, Gunsbuster is a different show with different rules, so it's not really relevant. The creators of Gunsbuster chose to deal with time dilation, no doubt an influence from Ender's Game which was prevalent throughout the anime.
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Old 2008-11-04, 17:40   Link #1277
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Which is why labeling super dimension space as hyperspace by analogy is not a good idea, IMO. Not only because hyperspace is too specific, but because hyperspace functions differently in different fiction. Hyperspace isn't telling us anything specifically relevant to super dimension space in the Macross universe, so I think it's best to be specific about fold space and avoid hyperspace as an analogy.
Hyperspace is a rather broad term used in many sci-fi settings, which is why I dropped it here. The Macross version of FTL travel seems to combine elements of both 'travelling through another dimension' as well as 'direct displacement' due to the way there's a subjective timeframe which is experienced by the people in spacefold unlike traditional displacement-type FTL drives which are either instananeous (a la Asimov's Foundation series, or Dickson's Childe cycle jump drives). In the former setting, spacefolds literally couldn't be measured and were barely felt; in the latter, the subject undergoing a jump literally entered a period of 'no-time' which made the position in space infinitely variable... and was only perceived in a 'did something happen?' manner as the human mind had the capability to 'exist' outside of normal space-time and experience that instant of no-time.... but in a way that, once you re-entered normal space-time couldn't really deal with... which led to the need to drug people to handle the sensation without going catatonic.

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Originally Posted by March View Post
The L.A.I. Fold Booster and it's significantly reduced time factor is only a recent development in the Macross universe, so it's best to keep the original description of fold travel around so as to unify the continuity of the Macross franchise (which now spans 3 television series, 6 OVAs and 3 movies).
Notice that in Macross Plus the jump from Eden to Earth took almost no time at all - at most an hour in realspace or so given how the concert was still in progress when Isamu defolded in Earth orbit. There were also comments in Macross 7, IIRC, about how space fold drives were faster now than they'd been in the days of the first Macross-class ship. Also looking back on the first series, the jump to Pluto took like a minute or two shipboard time, and from the way Episode 15 described the reactions of the UN Spacy a period of a week or two had passed on Earth before they'd realized what'd happened. This isn't conclusive, but given that Eden's not literally 'just across the solar system', Isamu's arrival during the concert (as we had seen it beginning when he'd left, and assuming that the concert hadn't started a day or so after he'd folded out of Eden space).. that seems faster than allowable for the drives they had during the first series.

The reason the L.A.I. Fold Booster was so special was because it was much faster than even current-generation fold systems because it could also bypass a lot of the issues that the fold booster that fighter off Galaxy at the end of Episode 5 had with fold faults and other distortions of superdimensional space... which also, by the nature of their existence, suggest that fold drives derived from the Protoculture's technology aren't simple 'displacement-only' drives; if this was the case, then the nature of the surrounding space in all dimensions would be less important... and fold-faults between point A and point B wouldn't be an issue as you would only be making two points in space 'touch'. Again, this suggests that spacefold in Macross is a hybrid of the 'travel through another dimension' and 'total displacement' drive concepts, a viewpoint supported by the way they choose to animate the process of spacefold; they show ships apparently travelling THROUGH something when we see spacefolds from the subjective point of view (of the traveller) even though the results for an outside observer are (as witnessed in the original Macross) a simple displacement of the travelling ship.

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Originally Posted by March View Post
Because while distance is now a much less significant factor in the equation of interstellar travel, factors like energy and most importantly time are still relevant. Thus it still takes time to swap space with super dimension space and it still takes a certain amount of energy. Fold travel is fast, but not instantaneous, only near-instantaneous and the farther you go, the more time and energy become a factor. Thus longer periods of time will be spent within super dimension space and greater amounts of energy will be required to make longer trips.
Fold-faults also suggest that there is some element of 'travel' through higher/superdimensional space involved here. Otherwise they wouldn't be an issue with regards to spacefolds - energy costs of linking together two points would have been the only factor to consider if this was a case. There are elements of 'displacement' (two points are linked via super/higher-dimensional space) but at the same time time does pass on the ship doing the space-fold; it's just a matter of how much time elapses. Short jumps don't apparently really allow for much subjective time to be experienced in spacefold, while long-range ones (or ones on older vessels) do apparently allow for minutes if not days to occur for the people doing the folding.

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Originally Posted by March View Post
I'm not meaning to be difficult, but may I ask what possible relevance there is to discussing all these widely varied methods of fictional Faster-Than-Light (FTL) travel in the context of understanding super dimension space in Macross? We should be helping fans understand how space folding works in Macross, not "how space folding in Macross DOESN'T work like this franchise or that franchise". Any similarities between franchises are only in the vaguest sense and I would think specific answers would best answer the questions being asked, IMO.
I'm not the one who brought up the whole 'how does spacefold work' question - and I did point to Episode 6 where most of the basics are explained. At the same time, I do feel compelled to point out that jump technology has advanced even before Macross Frontier's Vajra showed up, and the existence of things like fold-faults and other space-time phenomena that can cause accidents with spacefolds (such as the one used to explain the 117th Research Fleet's destruction) indicate that the 'total displacement' model isn't necessarily the most accurate means of describing how spacefolds work. Heck, even that intro for Ep 6 indicated that spacefolds involved some actual 'travel' through superdimensional/higher dimensional space.
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Old 2008-11-08, 06:34   Link #1278
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From BD vol 8 courtesy of protoeden of MW.

The Macross Galaxy Fleet




Is it possible for Kaitos and Dulfim to Gattai?



Can Galaxy mainland transform?

Where do you place Battle Galaxy there?
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Old 2008-11-11, 17:05   Link #1279
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Is it possible for Kaitos and Dulfim to Gattai?
lol I totally see it!
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Old 2008-11-11, 21:43   Link #1280
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sounds hentai now... really hentai.
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