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Old 2008-12-14, 23:11   Link #1301
Tak
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Ok ok, now see, lets not drag this mis-communication any further than we should.

- Tak
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Old 2008-12-15, 12:34   Link #1302
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Update Addendum
Okay, I could have sworn I updated the Factory Satellite, but it appears I did not. I have now done so. Taking direction from the Factory Satellite picture in the Macross Chronicle issue #5, I also updated my Factory Satellite colored line art with my own version done in a similar style. Also, I forgot to add the Macross 7 fleet count numbers from issue #3 into the New Macross Class Colonization Ship profile, but I've now done so. Lastly, with an official size for the Macross 7 fleet, we can now determine the size of Chlore's Meltran fleet from Macross 7 Encore: Fleet of the Strongest Women. I've added the trivia to the profiles for both the Queadluun-Rau Chlore Fleet and the Meltran Gunboat Chlore Fleet. Here are direct links (make sure to REFRESH your browsers if the changes don't appear immediately):

Factory Satellite (new color art and Chronicle trivia)
New Macross Class Colonization Ship (new Chronicle trivia)
Q-Rau "Chlore Fleet" (new Chronicle trivia)
Meltran Gunboat "Chlore Fleet" (new Chronicle trivia)

Enjoy
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Old 2008-12-15, 15:32   Link #1303
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Hory Floating Head on the estimated numbers of Chlore's fleet.

97,000?

Heck she can take on the Varutan fleet if she wanted.
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Old 2008-12-15, 15:57   Link #1304
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Hory Floating Head on the estimated numbers of Chlore's fleet.

97,000?

Heck she can take on the Varutan fleet if she wanted.
And seeing how those were pacified by Basara, adding another 100,000 vessels to the great UN Spacy!

Speaking of which, I wonder what happened to the millions of Zent ships pacified by the UN SPACY during Space War I?

- Tak
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Old 2008-12-15, 16:27   Link #1305
March
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Yeah, Chlore's entire Meltran fleet would have been absorbed into the UN Forces. That would have been quite a bonus. Still, it would likely be quite a logistical nightmare to reform the Meltrans into the UN fleet. It might have taken a year or more to do so.

There were few, if any, Zentradi warships from the Bodol Zer Main Fleet that were pacified during the final battle of Space War I. Official information tells us that the UN Spacy had only the SDF-1 Macross and roughly 100 Zentradi warships after the final battle of Space War I in March 10, 2010. Everything else was lost, including most of the 1,200 ships of Britai's fleet, the 125 Oberth Class Destroyers and the few ARMD Class ships in the existing UN Spacy fleet. About the only major vessel that wasn't lost was the SDF-2 still under construction at the Apollo Base on the Moon.

The remainder of the Bodol Zer Main fleet fled the Sol System once Bodolzaa's flagship was destroyed.

That's why obtaining the Factory Satellite from the Zentradi was so critical to the UN's post-war build up. Once they had that gargantuan automated factory, the UN was able to build entire colony fleets and Earth reconstruction materials in a very short period of time.
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Old 2008-12-15, 17:34   Link #1306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
There were few, if any, Zentradi warships from the Bodol Zer Main Fleet that were pacified during the final battle of Space War I. Official information tells us that the UN Spacy had only the SDF-1 Macross and roughly 100 Zentradi warships after the final battle of Space War I in March 10, 2010. Everything else was lost, including most of the 1,200 ships of Britai's fleet,
Its been a while since I read that same article, although my impression of UN SPACY's relative strength was one calculated prior to the end of Space War I. But, if this official information does indicate the relative strength of the UN SPACY after Space War I, then we are left with some questions.

Our beloved adviser Folmo, on behalf of Breetai, did send an overture to the UN SPACY for a joint operation against Bodolzaa. This was of course, accepted. At that time, the combined fleet would have been numerous.

During the battle itself, many other fleets voluntarily joined the UN SPACY, especially those mesmerized by Minmei's songs. After the battle, we are greeted by loud celebration from Zentradi fleets everywhere.

But, after the war, they were somehow... gone? Now, I am reminded that Misa & co. did operate on Breetai's flagship during post-war, so to say an entire fleet just disappeared is something I personally find difficult to digest, especially with no plausible explanation of this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
That's why obtaining the Factory Satellite from the Zentradi was so critical to the UN's post-war build up. Once they had that gargantuan automated factory, the UN was able to build entire colony fleets and Earth reconstruction materials in a very short period of time.
To me, obtaining the Satellite was not only for the sake of post-war build up. Rather, it also provided the logistics (if the later episodes of Macross indicated anything) necessary to support the Zentradi population (and their fleet). Of course, by then they were co-existing with humans and certainly would have dwarfed mankind in number.

Moreover, I take note of some of the things said in Macross Frontier.

Klan mentioned that after the war, some Zentradi preferred to live in space, although they were still technically part of the UN SPACY.

The fleet led by Ogotai was one such fleet, and certainly not the only one. We are also reminded of the fleet composition being mostly old school Zentradi ships, such as the Nupetiet-Vergnitzs (please do not ask me how I memorized its spelling) and associated monitors. That fleet struck me as something from the first Space War, especially with Ogotai reminiscing the good ol' days.

Let us not forget Breetai was the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and possibly still is. Certainly, battling rogue Zentradi fleets had been one of major responsibilities of the new fleet, and I am guessing that many were pacified along the way.

- Tak (Many questions... few answers. Felt like another deja vu of Mai Otome Sifr OVA)
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:52   Link #1307
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well, finally found the time..okay. FORCED MYSELF to watch it to the end.

Yes, i had to force myself, i didn't want it to end... D:

But it was so good... literally blew my mind away, best space opera battle ever, with soul lifting battle music. totally wicked.

But as always, there are more questions then answers.

The most pressing one is the relations to the "Birdman" of Macross Zero how it ties back to the Varija?

I mean it wasn't exactly clear to me as to what the "Birdman" mecha suppose to be.

was it suppose to mimic the Varija? duplicate the weapons/technology with native protoculure tech?

A prototype biological/cyborg weapon? research and development to counter them?

A hybrid Protoculture/Varija mecha? Reverse Engineering? Research?

Of course this also brings into where on earth did Sara/Shin go to? protoculture mecha base or Varija home planet or none? but i;ll leave that question for the appropriate thread.....
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Old 2008-12-15, 22:54   Link #1308
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Tak
Well, there's a certain interpretive allowance involved. But IMO, I just never got the impression that any of those 100 surviving warships were pacified Zentradi. I figured they were just the remains of the 1,200 ships of Britai's Adoclass Fleet. Regardless, the UN Fleet (all 125+ ships) were destroyed and so were around 1,100 allied Zentradi vessels. As for those who may have turned to the UN's side, they obviously didn't survive the war.

I think it's important to look at the battle from the Zentradi perspective to understand their losses suffered and their reasons for retreat. Here's a fleet of 4,795,122 Zentradi warships about to grapple with an "enemy" fleet of about 1,330 ships. They succeed in flattening Earth in less than a minute and figure they have the battle licked. Then all hell breaks loose.

Some big ass cannon fires from what is supposed to be a dead planet and destroys one-fifth of the fleet. Then they're hit with transmissions of culture on Zentradi frequencies (from Britai's fleet) which to the Zentradi would be like the church lady exposed to a live gang bang. This is followed up by a surprise attack from the UN fleet and thousands of Valkyries armed with reaction warheads. While the Zentradi are trying to regroup from this completely unexpected assault that is easily inflicting a thousand times the causalities that it should and paralyzing the crews of even more ships in range, the Zentradi mothership gets blown to pieces and takes another million warships along with it.

After that, any Zentradi with a brain is getting the hell outta there and unless they have some plan to defeat an enemy so powerful that it can lay waste to 2 million ships with a force no larger than 1,300, the Zentradi ain't going back to that solar system any time soon

In either case, it's clear the UN did not have millions of Zentradi ships at their disposal post-SWI. If they did, the Varauta fleet in Macross 7 would have been a joke to them. The Meltran fleet in Encore wouldn't have made them bat an eye. The Vajra fleet in Frontier would have been steamrolled by the NUNS. It just doesn't add up and doesn't follow the sequels. It's the UN Spacy who is always vastly outnumbered. The humans also seem to outnumber the zentradi in UN society. Remember, it was the humans that mass cloned after SWI and it was the rise in hereditary diseases that forced them to stop in only 20 years. If they were cloning zentradi, disease wouldn't have been a concern (since if it was, the zentradi as a species would have died out hundreds of thousands of years ago along with the Protoculture).

Regarding the events of Frontier, rogue Zentradi were seen as part of Kamjin's forces back in SDF Macross and in the opening of Macross Plus. While most of the Zentradi love culture, some don't. But Ogotai's fleet wasn't rogue, only a portion of it under influence of Temjin. I'm sure not everyone in the UN/New UN is all happy and content either. Some will be discontent no matter what. That's life.

I've no doubt that between 2010 and 2059, the UN/NUN Forces did encounter Zentradi and will have absorbed some of them into the fleet. The events of the anime series and the official literature confirm it happens. However, at most they gain some thousands of ships, (like Chlore's fleet) not millions.
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Old 2008-12-16, 02:37   Link #1309
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This is an interesting discussion.

I often find it difficult to believe that if the process of pacification could have been achieved so easily in Macross 7, why should not a greater effect be achieved in the original Macross? After all, if the end of the original TV series or DYRL indicated anything, I was under the impression that many Zents were happy to be free from the clutches of Baldoza. It would appear that Kawamori has much explanation to do.

Regardless, seeing how Macross Frontier followed Seven, I am under the impression that if the NUNS did not have millions of ships, they at least had then in the hundred thousands. Certainly a plausible number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
In either case, it's clear the UN did not have millions of Zentradi ships at their disposal post-SWI. If they did, the Varauta fleet in Macross 7 would have been a joke to them. The Meltran fleet in Encore wouldn't have made them bat an eye.
I had always been under the impression that the bulk of NUNS/UNS fleet was stationed on Earth in order to deter another possible Zentradi invasion, seeing how Earth was hit several times after the First Space War (if the games were to be taken into account), since the Zents had little to no knowledge as to where other human colonies might be (the encounter in 7 being one of pure accident). Therefore, the fleets accompanying the colonies could not have been numerous, especially since the colonial efforts, as we have witnessed, were quite ambitious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
The Vajra fleet in Frontier would have been steamrolled by the NUNS.
Let us also not forget that Leon in Macross Frontier had the option to request reinforcements from NUNS directly. He never did, and instead opted to take on the Vajra himself. How effective could they have been, and how much is available remain a mystery. But it was an option, nonetheless.

Regardless, he was lucky to have only been arrested at the end.

Although I highly doubt the Vajra could have been 'steamrolled'. Just because the Vajra had a home world does not mean it does not seed other worlds (which is a distinct possibility, seeing what they have done to Frontier). But, like Earth is sacred ground to the humans, the Vajra obviously had something similar in the form of their home world. It is only natural for them to be on the defensive when their world was violated.

But in fact, we were never told just how many Vajra there were. However, seeing their reproductive abilities, it is highly plausible that they outnumber the Zentradi fleets. Moreover, the Vajra knew precisely where to strike. As soon their home world came under attack, the Vajra warped their fleets to every single world/colony known to man. This clearly indicates that the Vajra exist at a number far greater than imagined. Unlike the Zentradi, the annihilation of mankind was never their aim, and much like the Zentradi's initial operations, the Vajra sought to understand mankind, thus why the Vajra never quite dropped the hammer.

They could, if they wanted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
It just doesn't add up and doesn't follow the sequels. It's the UN Spacy who is always vastly outnumbered. The humans also seem to outnumber the zentradi in UN society.
Honestly though, do you really want to mass clone the Zents? Humans at the time still have yet to fully comprehend the Zentradi as a people, and seeing how they have violent urges as part of their genetic makeup, cloning them would have been a most terrible idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by March View Post
I've no doubt that between 2010 and 2059, the UN/NUN Forces did encounter Zentradi and will have absorbed some of them into the fleet. The events of the anime series and the official literature confirm it happens. However, at most they gain some thousands of ships, (like Chlore's fleet) not millions.
Once again, I believe the NUNS/UN SPACY possess a fleet that is at least in the hundred thousands range. It does add up, even if one completely dismisses the alleged gains made post Space War I. Question is, when are we going to see them in action.

- Tak (Again, Kawamori has much explanation to do)
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Old 2008-12-16, 16:49   Link #1310
March
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Well, I'd be so bold as to say that Macross 7 was it's own beast entirely. Many would argue that in comparison to SDF Macross, Macross 7 is more properly classified as parody and best accepted as such. The ridiculous ease with which Firebomber "converts" an entire Meltran fleet totally undermines the struggles it took in SDF Macross to achieve the same result with much less success. But I will concede that as another argument entirely.

To digress, I do understand what you mean and I realize we should try to unify all of Macross into an explanation that reconciles all the events. To that end, I think your interpretation is interesting and not without merit, but for me, I'm not sure how I would reconcile it.

For example, if there were at least several "tens of thousands" or "hundreds of thousands" of Zentradi ships absorbed into the UN fleet via pacification, they would have appeared as part of the Earth Defense fleet. But the Earth Defense fleet we see in Macross Plus is filled with nothing but UN ships (plus lots of defense satellites). If these supposed Zentradi ships were not part of the Earth Defense Fleet but were then spread amongst the colony fleets, we run into the situation again where they are simply not present.

The Macross 1, 7, 11, and Galaxy Fleets are all UN Spacy ships. Even the ALL-ZENTRADI Macross 5 fleet was composed of UN Ships and Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs and Zentradi-Type Stealth Frigates. So where are all these Zents? If there were so many such ships, there's no way we wouldn't have seen them by now, especially in an all-Zentradi fleet.

Regarding the Vajra, it's hard to say how many there were. But it's really not necessary to assume the Vajra have millions of ships and fleets, especially since we don't see nearly that man and it's been established that the Varauta fleet was 70,000 strong and the Meltran fleet was 97,000 strong. These fleets were more than large enough to dwarf the UN Spacy.

Regarding the strength of the UN Spacy/New UN Spacy fleet, I would be careful with any such count. If the Macross 7 fleet is typical, then colony fleets are no more than 200 ships each. Since the colony fleets are still counted in double digits (and official trivia stating that only one or two such fleets are launched PER YEAR), that equals no more than 10,000-20,000 ships for all colony fleets from 2012 to 2059. For the sake of argument, double that number to account for established colony defense fleets and the Earth defense fleet and you have a UN Spacy that is no more than 50,000 ships TOTAL. Given what is seen in the anime, supported by numbers from the official trivia and the Macross Chronicle, it's a perfectly acceptable figure which adds up and follows the anime productions faithfully. At least IMO.
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Old 2008-12-16, 20:10   Link #1311
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Ah, I am glad you brought up the Varauta, because I almost forgot about them.

It is interesting to note the relative strength of the Varauta. As you said, they numbered in the 70,000 range (and beyond), but lets not forget who composed the Varauta fleet. With the exception to a few higher ranking members of the Protodevlin, most of the Varauta fleet consisted of humans, brainwashed individuals from Megaroad 13.

Let us also not forget what consisted of the Varauta fleet. Their variable fighters for example, were clearly based off the VF-14 Nightmare, ones that traveled with Megaroad 13 prior to their disappearance. Then there are their fleet ships, which struck me as something of a hybrid between UN and Zentradi vessels. Now, the Protodevlin did not awaken until the year 2025, and within 15+ years, they managed to create a fleet of 70,000+.

I find that to be slightly odd. How the Varauta managed to stay below radar is beyond me.

Then came the aftermath. Clearly, not every single Varauta fleet ships were destroyed after Macross 7, never mind the crew members, who are human, on board. So if we are to assume that the brainwashed humans were freed from Protodevlin influence, what happened to their ships? 70,000 is a big number, take out a few and you are still left with more than a handful.

- - - - -

As for other Zentradi ships, I am once again reminded of Ogotai's fleet from Macross Frontier. These guys do not appear to be attached to any specific colonies, and based on Klan's statement about the fleet, it is suggested that there are many like it. While Macross 5 consisted of an all-Zent crew, we should note that there is a distinction between those who prefer to live in societies, and those who prefer to drift in space.

- - - - -

When concerning about the Vajra, episode 21 gave us a good indication of how fast and how numerous they can multiply. Literally millions of them simply burst from nowhere and caught everyone off guard. I am more than certain that the Vajra can easily replicate this process elsewhere. Note that this is also a race the Protoculture revered. It is just fortunate that annihilation of the galaxy was never their aim.

- Tak (On the other hand, Macross II gave us a slugfest)
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Old 2008-12-16, 23:45   Link #1312
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It wouldn't surprise if a factory satellite was found by Varutan colonists.

That region of space was supposed to be part of Protoculture civilization.

Also Gepelnitch could have had a factory satellite hidden somewhere before he and his gang were caught.
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Old 2008-12-17, 13:44   Link #1313
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Depending upon how one interprets the events, the Varauta's/Protodeviln's production capacity could be even more ridiculous than what you've described

The Protodeviln where only released from captivity in 2045, when the mysterious energy field on the "ice planet" was dropped. Which means the Varauta Army was 70,000 ships strong only two years after the Protodeviln awoke.

But then again...

The Megaroad 13 fleet had settled in the Varauta system for 20 years before unleashing the Protodeviln. As we know from the Macross sequels, many colony fleets choose to build their own classes of ships and their own kinds of variable fighters. The Varauta Army could be composed of UN ships and variable fighters that the Megaroad 13 fleet had been building for 20 years before unleashing the Protodeviln. The Protodeviln simply take over everything in sight then begin a massive military buildup for the next 2 years. In 2047, a Varauta fleet consisting on 70,000 ships is encountered by the Macross 7 fleet.

We are then left to ponder two questions:
1) If the Megaroad 13 fleet was actually responsible for building 70,000 ships in 20 years and the Protodeviln merely escalated production for 2 more years after that, how'd the Megaroad 13 fleet build so many ships and why would they build such a fleet to begin with?
2) If the Protodeviln only seized a Megaroad 13 fleet of a few thousand ships when the awoke in 2045, how then did the Protodeviln build another 65,000 ships in only 2 years?

We don't have any answers. As Reddy Red Wolf has suggested, perhaps the Varauta had access to a Factory Satellite (or even the 20-50 Factory Satellites that supply the average Zentradi fleet, as translations of the Macross Chronicle have recently revealed). Or perhaps Productions wasn't necessary at all and the Protodeviln simply assumed control of the Supervision Army remnants that just happened to be "near" the Varauta system when they awoke. The fighters would have been much easier to build in large numbers over a brief period of time than the ships.
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Old 2008-12-17, 18:36   Link #1314
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Thus, before I get a plausible explanation from Kawamori & crew, I am going to have to assume that he fails at mathematics.

That being said, I am going to elaborate on my argument as to why it is possible for the UN SPACY to have millions of ships:

Actually, I take that back, the UNS does not own millions of ships, rather the UNS-Zentradi hegemony possess millions of ships. Why do I say this? First, I must note that the Zentradi who made peace with mankind and the UN SPACY are two different entities. Second, while some Zentradi willingly conform themselves under UN rule, it does not mean others are willing to follow suit.

Now, if we look back at Macross PLUS, we note that during the ceremony, two flags were raised, one represents the UNS, while the other represents the Zentradi. I did not look at it as a mere celebration of peace between the two people, but I consider it also as a political statement. Moreover, judging by Klan's own words, some Zents simply chose to roam in space rather than be attached to any colonial fleet or directly affiliate themselves with the UNS. In Macross Frontier, clearly Ogotai possessed a fleet capable of matching the numbers of many a colonial fleet, but because of their way of life, they were not part of any colonial fleet. This would explain why Macross 5 received next to no Zentradi support even when its population were composed of mostly Zents. After all, if a fleet as large as Ogotai's exist in Macross Frontier, why did they need UNS assistance at all to create colonies? Perhaps many of the pacified Zents appreciate what culture could offer, it does not mean they'd suddenly appreciate its political system, or human society's way of life, too.

So stating that, I must take into account the possibility of non-UNS-affiliated-but-human-friendly Zent fleets out there. It is a possibility that we have not been shown their full strength. Furthermore, we should consider why Breetai became the Supreme Commander of the UNS forces after Space War I. If most fleet ships were indeed UNS designs and/or that mankind does outnumber the Zents significantly (within UNS territories), there would have been little to no reason to appoint Breetai to the UNS' most prestigious military rank. After all, should not Global be a more fitting individual for the position?

- Tak
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Old 2008-12-19, 11:40   Link #1315
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^ i agree with Tak. Just cause they liked the human culture doesn't mean they would give up their freedom to do something that they've never done before. War is a culture as is exploration. The Zents could have kept drifting but have a commission to scout out their journeys and selling the data back to NUNs.

Also i'm sure there have been some Zents or Meltrans that tried to live a "normal" life and found it wanting. I mean if you were a commander of a vast military fleet then all of a sudden you're an "office drone" or some construction worker (cause you're strong) you'd get bored. Lets also face it, not all Zents can pick up girls :P So if there is no one to go "home" to, why go home at all.

On the flip side, look at someone like Richard Bilrer. How could he amass enough money to create his own military force complete with a Macross class ship? I could see him converting some Zentradi ships to massive cargo haulers that would out class any civilian competition he could face.
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Old 2008-12-19, 16:16   Link #1316
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Well, this has gone into wild speculation, but it's not exactly my place to say it's right or wrong. At this point, there is no right or wrong answer. All I can say is that, to me, it's not the likely interpretation given unification of facts in the Macross franchise.

However, I am still unclear what point is attempting to be made by hanging on the "Zentradi from Macross Frontier" or it's supposed relation to fan interpretation of ship counts. I'm not seeing any correlation or relevance at all. If anything, the tiny garrison on Gallia IV is yet another example of the smaller forces typical of the NUN Spacy.

But solely on the subject of Zentradi integration, who knows what the situation might be. There's not enough information to say whether there are some Zentradi allies living "outside of culture" intentionally or if it's just another garrison. Even today, garrisons and stations of human troops are often "outside of culture" simply by virtue of geography. They also have visits from performers to enjoy a brief moment of popular culture in an otherwise regimented military life.
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Old 2008-12-20, 15:40   Link #1317
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You know what they need to do? They need to make a special on the wars between the Zentradi fleet and the Supervision Army.

Shoot, the Protodevlin doesn't cut it. The Supervision Army sounded like a deadlier enemy.

- Tak
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Old 2009-05-13, 03:11   Link #1318
ReddyRedWolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Battle Class Stealth Attack Carrier (Macross 1 to Macross 13 New Macross Class Battle Class ships)

Battle 1

Battle 5

Battle 7

Battle 13


Length: 1510 meters

Battle Class Stealth Attack Carrier (Macross Galaxy variant and Island Cluster Class variant)

Battle 21/Battle Galaxy

Battle 25/Battle Frontier


Length: 1681 meters

Batle 7 and Battle 13

Height: 1117 meters

Battle Frontier and Battle Galaxy



Height:?
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Old 2009-06-02, 04:30   Link #1319
Alkampfer
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
hi to all, i'm new in these forum
i read many of these discussion, in particular like YF24 as prototype for VF25

a little head-quater ^^"
and if VF25 is an evolution of SV51???
ok is not in line whith valkyre evolution but is too similar
http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrosszero/sv-51.htm

and always sorry for my bad english ^^"
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Old 2009-06-10, 13:44   Link #1320
DrStrangelove
Evil Overlord
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkampfer View Post
hi to all, i'm new in these forum
i read many of these discussion, in particular like YF24 as prototype for VF25

a little head-quater ^^"
and if VF25 is an evolution of SV51???
ok is not in line whith valkyre evolution but is too similar
http://www.new-un-spacy.com/macrosszero/sv-51.htm

and always sorry for my bad english ^^"
Not likely. VF-25s most likely evolved from VF-1/VF-19 roots. http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-25_Messiah
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