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Old 2008-05-12, 06:47   Link #121
Tabris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
topic switch. The fold animations seem in Frontier appear a lot more elaborate than in macross 7. Think this is a new fold type or just them taking some artistic license?
I think it's just improving the style and looks of folding, nothing more. But they could always say that they improved the efficiency of fold engines or something?

Edit: Also, to see Sander's picture you have to quote him and then get the link from there (because he used a url to a page rather than a direct image link :P), not like it matters since we know which part he means anyway I'd always just passively thought that it was a VF-171, even though it (the 171) doesn't have any canards :s
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Old 2008-05-12, 07:17   Link #122
Onizuka-GTO
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yeah, been wondering who came up with the UN designation "VF-27" but im so excited!

NEW STUFF!!



As if the Miniature SDF wasn't enough.

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Old 2008-05-12, 08:01   Link #123
Wesley84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
yeah, been wondering who came up with the UN designation "VF-27" but im so excited!

NEW STUFF!!



As if the Miniature SDF wasn't enough.

A subverted, cybernetic pilot that was integrated into Galaxy's defense system? A prototype maybe?
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Old 2008-05-13, 02:41   Link #124
Sander RX
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Quote:
because he used a url to a page rather than a direct image link
My bad On topic:whats so "Messiah" in VF-25?Does it bring some new revolution to VF industry?Cause to me its just the old VF-1\VF-0 made with new tech.
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Old 2008-05-13, 03:05   Link #125
glyph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sander RX View Post
My bad On topic:whats so "Messiah" in VF-25?Does it bring some new revolution to VF industry?Cause to me its just the old VF-1\VF-0 made with new tech.
VF-25 is a very Messiah.
Kibou no hikari yo Messiah.
SHAO PAI LON VF-25!

Yes, it's a pretty silly name, isn't it?
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Old 2008-05-13, 03:27   Link #126
Burner of Anime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sander RX View Post
My bad On topic:whats so "Messiah" in VF-25?Does it bring some new revolution to VF industry?Cause to me its just the old VF-1\VF-0 made with new tech.
Probably the ability to bring battle a full armour VF missile payload, variable weapons loadout and heavy armour plating with the speed of a Super VF- and still transform. That's pretty hardcore. At the moment, probably the QR powered armour is ahead on missile loadout along with the VB-6 for throwing indiscriminate justice on the opposition. With that said, the VF-25 is probably better with longer operational range [+fold boosters] and precision guided weaponary.

I suspect that there's nothing really 'new' about the VF-25 other than the speed, control systems and manueverability to match/surpass the gold standard in combat mecha [that should still be the QR armour]. But that's for space combat and close assault, there's still atmospheric operations which the VF's were originally designed for.

It's also rather easier to use in the hands of a novice pilot in civilian powered armour . If that makes it more accessible to the rank and file pilot as well as allows for better combat performance vs alien mecha, then it's enough to be a godsend in my book
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Old 2008-05-14, 16:00   Link #127
Tk3997
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Imported from the Analysis thread via Mod Request.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I've yet to see proof of that. Thing is, Zent personnel like Exsedol, basically a walking computer, would have exceeded the intelligence level of most humans. He frequently analyzed new findings and had absolutely no problems in identifying how existing technology works.
Intelligence or IQ alone won't let you do anything you'll find plenty of people with extremely high IQs and Raw intelligence that due to circumstances end up working an McDonalds or can barely write a coherent paragraph. (I've heard this compliant allot from various sorts of engineers IE that many of there peers seem so focused on engineering that there reports and writing in general can border on being illegible). Basiclly being smart dosen't somehow mean you're instantly capable over the entire range of things that require intelligence. If I wanted a history lesson or someone to assess enemy tactics then sure Ol' Ex is ma man, but if I want to design or modify a complex weapons system for improved performance I'll go talk to some UN engineers thanks.

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Because there had been absolutely no need to upgrade their weapons, given what they had more than fulfilled their purpose. Their fleet was more than a match against the UN SPACY, and if Baldoza was a little more determined, the annihilation of mankind wasn't difficult to accomplish.
Bull crap the US is obviously grossly superior to say the Iraq insurgency, but they've still be fielding new systems by the dozens just to try and be MORE superior. The ONLY reason no to adapt of upgraded weapons is A. An inability B. oh profound lack of innovation both where probably at work against the Zents all there weapons where built by automated systems they didn't understand enough to alter and there culture was rigid and set in it's ways to an extreme degree.

This also isn't even really about the UN they fought the Supervision army for millennia: with the same weapons. You're telling me that over the course of thousands year long war there was nothing that could be adapted for better performance against there enemy? I find that... unlikely to say the least. Probably the only reason they ultimately won was becasue if the Supervison Army was anything like the later Varuta army it was staffed by brainwashed humans(/proto-culture) who where probably even less creative then the Zents where... I'd also venture that even at it's height the Supervision army was probably signifcantly smaller then the Zent Armada was.

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There is also absolutely no evidence to suggest their 'factories' were in a dire need to 'resupply'. Based on the comments of Exsedol and/or the comments of Breetai, there could be millions, if not billions of factories in existence. Oh, and btw, the factories do maintain themselves, and it is also suggested that new factories could be planted.
Bullcrap, there where barely a few million Zent SHIPS left by 2009 there's no way in hell there a millions of factories massing as much as tens of billions of ships floating around. Not least off all becasue the galaxy isn't still inundated by a flood of Zent warships.

Also assuming then won't break down why did the factory the UN captures seems so utterly feeble? It's managed to churn out at best a few thousand ships in like 50 years

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And I don't know where you even got the "Zents were on the slow road to extinction" came from. Since no Zent ever suggested their race was on a slow road to decay, or the confident comments of Breetai, who stated not only once that to make Zents impotent as a war machine was either unthinkable or impossible, I highly doubt 'extinction' besides contacting culture or losing an all-out war against the Supervision Army was planned.
They had no concept of innovation or any of the skills to make a civilization work and despite your wanking nothing lasts forever including automated factories they where going out and getting themselves killed off in huge battles and the only way to replace the losses was a dwilding supply of factories producing clones and new ships. Once those factories finally wore out and with the zents not even knowing what sex IS they'd have been dead within a generation.

They themselves probably didn't even realize this fact until after they joined the UN IMO after all they'd been basiclly brainwashed to fight and be utterly confident in victory, but that hardly means there own boosts to that effect are to be taken literally! Seriously how can a species whose sole means of reproduction is a cloning process they don't understand, that lacks even the concept of natural procreation, and is engaged in a seemingly unending war NOT be on the slow road to oblivion? Seriously use your noodle and do the math.

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Even by Space War I, the automated factories were still churning out additional fleets, the Zent fleet was growing, not dwindling. They are just being kept busy fighting another war.
Yeah sure then why did they spend the better part of year trying to capture and spy on the SDF-1? Because it was pretty? If they just thoughts humans where the Supervision army they could have crushed them in about 5 seconds, but they didn't becasue they where intensely interested in how they'd fixed the ship (which then grew into a fascination with there culture, but that came later at first it was IMO a purely technical fascination) and re-developed weapons completely lost to them. (nukes)

As I recall dialogue from the ep 12 from the mouth of Boddole no less when the supreme commader of a major fleet basiclly says "learning how these guys fixed that ship could give us an advantage..."

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Er, they didn't leave "broken" glass just 'laying around the ship". They actually cleaned that up. Sure, the monitor is still broken, but no broken glass was 'laying around'.
Whatever I haven't watch the series in quite awhile some specific scenes are a tad fuzzy for me, but fact was they don't even seem to have attempted to repair it which is telling IMO I'd think on a ship well over a mile long they could spare enough parts to fix a few broken bridge monitors so either they were badly under supplied, didn't know how, or they're so stupid they don't carry spare parts of relatively small but extremely important parts of the ship. (A stock of the parts couldn't take up more space then maybe a squad of Battlepods and yet if those monitors where damaged and not fixed fighting the ENTIRE SHIP would be massively more difficult)

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The flagship did look rather ramshackle, but once again, they've not returned to any of their supply stations ever since they stationed near Earth orbit.
They were around earth for a year at best, modern carriers have deployed for times like that and don't look like they're falling apart. (normally yeah they deploy for say six months, but in a pinch they can surge for longer it's also not really an issue of the ships falling apart or something it's an issue of the them running out of food and gas for the jets more then anything).

Quote:
The SDF was itself pretty banged up for a long duration of the show if you noticed. But while the SDF can return to Earth for maintenance, the Zents could not, or chose not to. That is where I applaud the production staff for being consistent.
The SDF-1 was also being bombed and shot up by enemy forces on a regular basis the Zent flagship was not. If the Zent's flagship had acutally been engaging in battle and taking significant damage on a regular basis that would be one thing, but it wasn't and and yet it still looked like crap. (only instance I can recall it being damaged was during the escape of the main cast after there capture, and that was basiclly a pin-prick for a ship that size) That points toward shoddy or non-existent long term maintenance to me; ships don't start looking run down within a few months if the crew maintains them properly.

Quote:
It is well noted the automated factories do maintain themselves.
Probably which is why any of them still work at this point, but machinery wears out and there are bound to be systems that it simply can't get at to repair (no human scale robotic work force or such is ever mentioned or seen as I recall). Also they wouldn't just explode and stop working or something it would be a slow decline first one construction slip stops working; maybe the Zents know just enough to cannibalize that one to keep another working, but eventually that one breaks down too and so on over thousands of years the thing slowly grinds down. Nothing last forever certainly not something as complex and with as many things to break as an automated factory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haesslich View Post
Well, for the record Tk, I should point out that the Quadlunn-Rau, for the most part, was seen in combat in atmosphere - a big round ball with arms and legs that depends on jets to maneuver or hover probably won't do quite as well in the maneuverability department as a Valkyrie in that case.And even then, they did a hell of a number on VF-1's, due to their incredible missile loadout. In space, they're probably quite a bit more effective where air resistance and gravity aren't big factors.
Meh yeah mostly, but not completely and even in space we see instances of VFs fending them off. It was rough, but the gap wasn't so large that the VF where powerless against them and they scored kills of there own in return.

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The Quadlunn-Rea seems to have added that shoulder cannon to improve the direct-fire capability, and it compares very well with the current top-line prototype VF-25, even with FAST packs on it. I don't see this as being very inferior to human weapons at all.
Frankly the name change (which I'll admit slipped by me at first) alone is a slam dunk for my argument that these are upgrade models these are not the same machines that fought during Space War one. The different weapons fit and name should make that pretty clear acutally it supports that idea that in order to remain relevant against improving VFs they had to upgrade the older armors.

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Hell, human weapons for the most part aren't cracking Vajra shells to judge by how poorly the NUNS is doing, and it took a Zentradi weapon to kill this last Vajra as even Klein Klan's shoulder cannon at point-blank range didn't do more than put a crack in the shell.
As I recall she curses something to the effect of "Sallow hit" after firing which means she probably borked the shot and didn't get a good angle for penetration a particle beam still dose most of it's damage via a stream of particles (matter) so angles matter when attempting to punch through armor. My impression of the scene was certainly that she expected the shot to kill it, but messed it up. Indeed given the cyclic rate of the weapon getting on top of it like that seems almost suicidal if she didn't expect a one hit KO.

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In comparison, a weapon that had literally been lying around for thousands of years in an asteroid belt not only killed it, but survived the ensuing explosion without a visible scratch while Alto's VF-25 was apparently disabled and a little crispy afterwards.
Which is absurd a gun pod wouldn't have more armor plating then a frikkin mecha this is IMO simply the animators not wanting to waste time drawing battle damage on both the mecha and the gun that will probably IMO never appear again.


Quote:
Don't forget that Zentradi ships DO have large cannons like those used to bombard Earth; the same type of gun that the Macross used time and again to one-shot opposing Zentradi ships. And they had millions of ships with those -
Acutally no Monitors were rare as I recall official numbers say they made up only a tiny fraction of the total fleet.

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the humans' best weapon for anti-capship warfare was of the same type of design as the Zentradi's...
Well the original was, the newer cannons appear much more beefy then the original. (which as you said could one shot cruisers, the newer ones seem to be able to annihilate small fleets.)

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and we've yet to see the humans improving on those.
See above the cannon used in Macross 7 appears grossly more powerful then either the original SDF-1s or the Zent monitors.

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Human technology, from what we can tell, has focused mostly on kinetic weapons and missiles, along with drone weapons like the Ghosts... which are sufficient against the Zentradi, but apparently not as much against the Vajra, who are (at least apparently) light-years ahead of the humans in electronic warfare.
How's that? I don't recall them mentioning a single instance of jamming and they're always detected at long range they're fast which seems to make targeting them hard, but I don't recall any mention of special stealth systems. That said I doubt it anyway since humans acutally built a cloaking system that basiclly render a VF invisible to radar thoguh the writers seem to have promptly forgotten about that.

Quote:
The whole 'Zentradi can't repair stuff' thing is, IIRC, derived more from Robotech than Macross. That 'lack of repair abilities' was enforced by the Robotech Masters there, to keep the Zentraedi from overthrowing them.
No it's quite true in macross as well again see ep 12 of the first series, acutally Robotech never even really had the "can't repair stuff" so much as it had "running critically low on techno-babble power source" as it's main excuse for Zentradi weakness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Quite true. The Queadluun Rea is, for the most part, may not be as maneuverable as Valkyries, but on the other hand, the Queadluuns traditionally sport far more basic firepower than their human counterpart. In addition to its ridiculously numerous missile load-out. I take it as some sort of freakish balance
Valks have always been underarmed IMO sort of like the old Russian approach where they built small nimble fighters with only a few missiles and cannons. The US meanwhile built monsters that flew more via the brick principle IE "enough thrust and ANYTHING will fly" then anything else and loaded them down with as many missiles and bombs as they could cram on the thing... and the US doctrine was better it produced more capable aircraft that also took upgrades better. The F-4 would still be viable today with upgrades (one experimental version with new engines could even super-cruise!); the Mig-21 was bloody joke by about 1980.

The VF-19 and 22 were the first VFs that acutally seemed to be moving to fix this (and indeed as I recall fluff background says one of the goals of the project was to fix the weak weapons fit of older VFs). The VF-22 in particular was quite well armed sporting a pair of high powered fore-arm/wing route guns, a head laser, internal missile bays, and twin gunpods. I've acutally always felt that simply stripped of the whole thought control system the VF-22 would have been a superior machine, but it's possible that intangibles that are hard to gauge from simple statistics might have won it for the VF-19. (easier to build, probably cheaper, built using proven tech and so lower risk and probably faster into service)

Of course the writers merrily ignored that and retconned us back to the VF-25 with it's one real basic weapon; oh and they gave it a knife... space fighter with a bloody knife what a joke. the VF-25 has left me massively underwhelmed in general basiclly I've been like "they took this piece of shit over the VF-22/19?"

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Besides, why upgrade? Can anyone prove, with definite evidence that human conventional weapons ARE better than their Zent counterparts? Absolutely not. In fact, UN SPACY is still learning from their newfound allies.
Aside from the fact that pretty much every Zent mecha is long out of service and the ONE that we see has a different name and revamped weapons fit which tends to imply other drastic modifications? Give up the ghost and the Zent wanking already UN weapons where about even with the Zents 50 years before Frontier to think they aren't superior now is foolish to say the least.

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As for Zent weapons, a good fellow once said this regarding an AK-47, "you want to destroy an AK-47? run it over with a tank!"
AK-47s DO fail allot acutally, but you don’t hear about the tens of thousands that have rusted in oblivion or explode in the users hand from not being maintained at all. No you hear about the ones that against all odds manage to fire when full of mud or made more out of rust then steel, but these are the exceptions not the rule. The fact is the Ak-47 is often attributed magical proprieties it simply doesn’t have. It’s also an inferior weapon for actual combat featuring lack luster ergonomics, being very hard to mount accessories on, and with much poorer accuracy due to the loose tolerances it’s built with a properly cleaned M-16 is a superior combat arm; never mind something like a G-36 or SCAR.

I’d say the Zent weapons are similar perhaps somewhat studier (due to the fact Zent’s didn’t understand them and probably didn’t baby them much as a result), but ultimately inferior to what more advanced civilizations that acutally understand how there weapons work can produce or maintain. I have no doubt that UN weapons require more upkeep, but I’ve also little doubt that they out-perform any non-upgraded Zentradi tech easily by the time of Frontier.

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Yes, Zent guns are THAT good.
Or so you're wanking would have us believe...

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The moment I found out Protoculture became 'an energy source' in Robotech, I had to devour an entire bottle of vodka to suppress my urge to pull a 911 on Harmony Gold...

- Tak
Is your righteous fan boy anger duly vented?

I acutally perfer it in a number of aspects mostly how they dumped the singing bullshit pretty much totally after the first season Macross 7 in particular is EASILY worse then anything in robotech IMO. Robotech had some dog ideas to be sure, but so does Macross and frankly until Frontier and excluding Plus Macross had yet to produce anything after the initial saga that I found nearly as interesting as the Robotech EU. Robotech started off as a cash in I'll admit, but IMO some decent writing and neat ideas have turned it into an interesting universe in it's own right; different, but not automatically "inferior" despite what some overzealous fanboys would have you believe.
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Old 2008-05-14, 16:50   Link #128
Haesslich
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Just to respond to comments made in posts I directly participated in...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
(Edit: In response to comment about QR's fighting mostly in atmosphere during Macross when he saw them)

Meh yeah mostly, but not completely and even in space we see instances of VFs fending them off. It was rough, but the gap wasn't so large that the VF where powerless against them and they scored kills of there own in return.
Who said that I indicated the VF's were powerless? Just they'd met a definite match in performance in the Quadlunn-Rau's, who even in atmosphere (where they were basically flying bricks due to a lack of lifting surfaces plus all of the problems having arms, legs, and bulging shoulder produced)... and that even then, they had issues with them because of the visibly greater speed and firepower that even one unit had in comparison to the, as you pointed out, somewhat underarmed VF's. Mind you, I don't see a lot of places you could mount guns on most VF's that don't get folded under or tucked into inconvenient places when in another mode... which is probably why they never made much mention or use of the head-lasers in the VF-1, and the nose-lasers didn't seem to see much use outside of fighter mode.

The FAST pack-equipped Super Valkyries seemed to have been purpose-built to counter this lack of armament (lasers in the arms, missile pods), and could apparently be retrofitted easily and quickly onto standard Valkyries, like they would missiles into hardpoints. With this sort of upgrade, standard VF's seemed to experience a major boost to combat performance, to judge by how Hikaru finished off Quamzin's flight in its first deployment along with how he was able to take on a small capital ship by himself during the battle for Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Frankly the name change (which I'll admit slipped by me at first) alone is a slam dunk for my argument that these are upgrade models these are not the same machines that fought during Space War one. The different weapons fit and name should make that pretty clear acutally it supports that idea that in order to remain relevant against improving VFs they had to upgrade the older armors.
Things improve. I don't recall saying that the Queadlunn-Rau was the be-all and end-all of combat armors... and Macross 7 did have the Queadlunn-Rau with the Chlore fleet, and we see the Queadlunn-Quilqua in "M7: The Galaxy's Calling Me" with a large shoulder cannon as well as the two cannons the Rau already had - what may have been an intermediate step between the old Rau and the Rea, design-wise. It's certainly less bulky at the shoulders than the Rau was with its missile pods, even if the shoulders ended up being wider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
As I recall she curses something to the effect of "Sallow hit" after firing which means she probably borked the shot and didn't get a good angle for penetration a particle beam still dose most of it's damage via a stream of particles (matter) so angles matter when attempting to punch through armor. My impression of the scene was certainly that she expected the shot to kill it, but messed it up. Indeed given the cyclic rate of the weapon getting on top of it like that seems almost suicidal if she didn't expect a one hit KO.
I thought she said it was a bad hit, or else she couldn't get decent penetration with her cannon from such close range or that angle. From what I could tell, the cannon she was firing was some sort of beam or laser cannon, and aiming for what may have been the power-generation unit for the liquid-plasma type cannon the Vajra was using (which took a good chunk out of that dead ship, if I recall correctly. Alto had ended up picking a gun which was effectively a field piece or anti-'aircraft' gun, which seemed to be more effective than even Mikhail's sniper-style gunpod, which is sufficient to deal with the white/yellow Vajra drones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Which is absurd a gun pod wouldn't have more armor plating then a frikkin mecha this is IMO simply the animators not wanting to waste time drawing battle damage on both the mecha and the gun that will probably IMO never appear again.
Or else the gun's fairly simple internally, and needed extra-robust construction which is why it's relatively untouched compared to the VF which had a lot more surface area to catch shrapnel or damage on. Remember that the fighter's designed to transform, which means thick armor plates may be a bad idea for mounting on the fighter. Valkyries never did seem to have much armor to begin with, which is why they have Armor and Super loadouts for them at all; the former applies more armor plating directly to the vulnerable torso and leg areas along with extra missile pods, while the latter added FAST packs along with the extra armor on the leg and torso.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Acutally no Monitors were rare as I recall official numbers say they made up only a tiny fraction of the total fleet.

Well the original was, the newer cannons appear much more beefy then the original. (which as you said could one shot cruisers, the newer ones seem to be able to annihilate small fleets.)
The newer Reaction weapons with the Macross 7 fleet, or with the Zentradi? I'm afraid I'm fuzzy on the 'official numbers', having yet to find a proper source for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
(Edit: In response to comments about Vajra having advanced EW technology)

How's that? I don't recall them mentioning a single instance of jamming and they're always detected at long range they're fast which seems to make targeting them hard, but I don't recall any mention of special stealth systems. That said I doubt it anyway since humans acutally built a cloaking system that basiclly render a VF invisible to radar thoguh the writers seem to have promptly forgotten about that.
Deculture had, IIRC, the NUNS flight controllers instructing the flight of VF-171's to increase their electronic hardening to level 7 due to 'apparent advanced ECW capbilities', and we saw the missile launch during the concert get scrambled and fly off in all directions. Plus in Deculture, the Ghosts were corrupted when sent in to scout... which is why they had to send out a human flight in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
No it's quite true in macross as well again see ep 12 of the first series, acutally Robotech never even really had the "can't repair stuff" so much as it had "running critically low on techno-babble power source" as it's main excuse for Zentradi weakness.
No, Robotech kept the 'Zentradi can't repair or understand the tech' angle too - that's why the spies said, at their debriefing, that the humans could repair items... which was also mentioned during that episode, when Lisa and Rick escaped and fell down into the waterworks. The 'Protoculture running low' thing was how they explained the Factory Satellite malfunctioning, or why they were hunting the ship in the first place.

And the way I understood the line from that episode was that the Zentradi has SPECIFICALLY lost the ability to make or repair Reaction weaponry, which is part of why they wanted the ASS-1 intact, as it apparently had the data on how to do so... data that the humans obviously understood, and as you've noted improved on, in the decades since the ASS-1 landed on Earth. They could make ships fine in those automated factories, ditto weapons; but the Zentradi, lacking any culture or society beyond what they had, also lacked the ability to recover or rediscover that knowledge themselves since they lacked the vital spark of creativity and imagination which humans had... which drove human innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Valks have always been underarmed IMO sort of like the old Russian approach where they built small nimble fighters with only a few missiles and cannons. The US meanwhile built monsters that flew more via the brick principle IE "enough thrust and ANYTHING will fly" then anything else and loaded them down with as many missiles and bombs as they could cram on the thing... and the US doctrine was better it produced more capable aircraft that also took upgrades better. The F-4 would still be viable today with upgrades (one experimental version with new engines could even super-cruise!); the Mig-21 was bloody joke by about 1980.

The VF-19 and 22 were the first VFs that acutally seemed to be moving to fix this (and indeed as I recall fluff background says one of the goals of the project was to fix the weak weapons fit of older VFs). The VF-22 in particular was quite well armed sporting a pair of high powered fore-arm/wing route guns, a head laser, internal missile bays, and twin gunpods. I've acutally always felt that simply stripped of the whole thought control system the VF-22 would have been a superior machine, but it's possible that intangibles that are hard to gauge from simple statistics might have won it for the VF-19. (easier to build, probably cheaper, built using proven tech and so lower risk and probably faster into service)

Of course the writers merrily ignored that and retconned us back to the VF-25 with it's one real basic weapon; oh and they gave it a knife... space fighter with a bloody knife what a joke. the VF-25 has left me massively underwhelmed in general basiclly I've been like "they took this piece of shit over the VF-22/19?"
The Valkyries are underarmed because they were (from what we could see) designed for long-range combat and/or close-in combat, which necessitates missiles and something for close-in use... but not a lot of things, since that would mean more parts to break down or more mass to have to lift. One reason that current US fighters have been in use for so long is that they were designed to be upgraded; the MIG-21 wasn't. It was designed to be relatively cheap and maneuver well. Even current US combat doctrine basically says to keep the fights at long range, which is where missiles come in - the gun is there because it's good to have a backup when your missiles are gone, and because they can be used at times when missiles can't.

The VF-25 in its basic form is somewhat underarmed (gun pod, knife, lasers on head, missile hardpoints), but it seems to have been designed with the ability to easily fit on other packs in order to improve its capabilities; a modular approach which makes the whole mecha easier to upgrade or change mission roles without expensive retrofitting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Aside from the fact that pretty much every Zent mecha is long out of service and the ONE that we see has a different name and revamped weapons fit which tends to imply other drastic modifications? Give up the ghost and the Zent wanking already UN weapons where about even with the Zents 50 years before Frontier to think they aren't superior now is foolish to say the least.
Hmm. There's a Glaug in the opening, or a Glaug-type mecha. Let's wait to see what it is before declaring all their weapons obsolete. Certainly, their ships still seem useful to some extent.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I’d say the Zent weapons are similar perhaps somewhat studier (due to the fact Zent’s didn’t understand them and probably didn’t baby them much as a result), but ultimately inferior to what more advanced civilizations that acutally understand how there weapons work can produce or maintain. I have no doubt that UN weapons require more upkeep, but I’ve also little doubt that they out-perform any non-upgraded Zentradi tech easily by the time of Frontier.
The last is an assumption, which can only be settled by either the word of god, or more actual in-series use (or non-usage). We know that the UN Spacy and humans have reaction weaponry, which is something the Zentradi don't have... but we're going to see it used soon enough next ep. Which should be showing up in a few hours.

Did anyone else look at that last ship in the preview and think "Meltlandi Attack Ship'?
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Old 2008-05-14, 17:20   Link #129
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They look similar to the Meltrandi Gunboats, but not quite identical.

Could be based off the Meltrandi design.

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Old 2008-05-14, 17:42   Link #130
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Is your righteous fan boy anger duly vented?
And is yours? Because if anything, you sound far more angry than I will be in the next 24 hours or so. You are certainly not a very merry fellow, tsk tsk tsk.

Chill out, the Zentradi won't burn your house down tomorrow.

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Bull crap the US is obviously grossly superior to say the Iraq insurgency, but they've still be fielding new systems by the dozens just to try and be MORE superior. The ONLY reason no to adapt of upgraded weapons is A. An inability B. oh profound lack of innovation both where probably at work against the Zents all there weapons where built by automated systems they didn't understand enough to alter and there culture was rigid and set in it's ways to an extreme degree.
Is the US fighting a war of annihilation? No. And we are not even creating new systems specifically to fight this war. All of our equipment in this war were made a long, long time ago. Its not like we saw this one coming. If the US is willing, they could just resort to nuclear weapons and there wouldn't be Iraq.

On the other hand, were the Zents fighting a war of annihilation against the Supervision Army and other, more minor civilizations? Yeah. Earth wasn't the only planet they plan to destroy. And when they finally put their mind to it, they pretty much destroyed Earth, too.

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Bullcrap, there where barely a few million Zent SHIPS left by 2009 there's no way in hell there a millions of factories massing as much as tens of billions of ships floating around. Not least off all becasue the galaxy isn't still inundated by a flood of Zent warships.
Wow, either you didn't watch the show or you are just delusional. You know, a certain Zent archivist did indicate that there were 2,000+ Baldoza-size fleets with 4 ~ 5 million ships in each. Hardly an indication that there were just a 'few' million ships left.

And of course, the galaxy is so tiny we would be seeing waves of Zent ships just swarming the Solar System. I mean, nevermind that a bulk of them is still engaged in a grueling war of attrition against the Supervision Army. That, and no where had it been stated the Supervision Army were defeated. Nowhere. In fact, here is what a production member once stated: "The Supervision Army, while an immensely powerful force to be feared, has not yet encountered mankind. We don't know when they will, after all, the galaxy is a big place"

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They were around earth for a year at best, modern carriers have deployed for times like that and don't look like they're falling apart. (normally yeah they deploy for say six months, but in a pinch they can surge for longer it's also not really an issue of the ships falling apart or something it's an issue of the them running out of food and gas for the jets more then anything).
And while US carriers are never hit, the Zent flagship was blasted left and right. Yet despite this, it still proved capable of folding in-and-out freely as if nothing had happened, so I can't say I am not convinced of the relative quality of Zent technology. While the rest of the ships that defolded alongside Baldoza were, well, spankin' new.

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Of course the writers merrily ignored that and retconned us back to the VF-25 with it's one real basic weapon; oh and they gave it a knife... space fighter with a bloody knife what a joke. the VF-25 has left me massively underwhelmed in general basiclly I've been like "they took this piece of shit over the VF-22/19?"
If you paid any attention to the series at all, you'd note that battroids were created specifically to combat Zents in close-quarters. And one desroid was armed with a baton. In Macross Plus, the VF-11s were equipped with a plain-old bayonet. It is assumed the VF-19/22s are equipped with close-quarter weapons, although I've only seen them punching each other. Having an energy blade as a weapon though, sure beats punching, if you ask me.

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AK-47s DO fail allot acutally, but you don’t hear about the tens of thousands that have rusted in oblivion or explode in the users hand from not being maintained at all. No you hear about the ones that against all odds manage to fire when full of mud or made more out of rust then steel, but these are the exceptions not the rule.
Again, nobody suggested that one should NOT clean your AK-47s or leaving them to rust, thus having one exploded in your hands is a rare exception, not a rule, and the result of one's stupidity. Hell, I wasn't even using AK47s as a comparison. But ya know, I do have three at home, one from China, one from Czech and the other from Romania. After more than a decade under my possession, they still work perfectly fine. And I don't have to baby them as much as I do my M1 Garand (which jams like hell, but even I realize its an exception, not the rule)!

As for that Zent gun, yeah, it was also floating in the vacuum of space. Not like dirt suddenly got in or oxygen making it rust.

As for your comment about newer Macross cannons being better than Zentradi/Meltlandi versions? Not quite. If you in fact watched the original series, or even DYRL (which is confirmed to be semi-canon), you will note in one scene, a tiny Meltlandi gunship simply ripped through the Macross for a very long distance with its main gun without even breaking a sweat! The Zentradi main guns also have a faster rate of fire than their Macross counterparts, which needed a long time to reload, and this process is only prolonged in Macross 7 for a trade-off of a more powerful gun.

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I acutally perfer it in a number of aspects mostly how they dumped the singing bullshit pretty much totally after the first season Macross 7 in particular is EASILY worse then anything in robotech IMO. Robotech had some dog ideas to be sure, but so does Macross and frankly until Frontier and excluding Plus Macross had yet to produce anything after the initial saga that I found nearly as interesting as the Robotech EU. Robotech started off as a cash in I'll admit, but IMO some decent writing and neat ideas have turned it into an interesting universe in it's own right; different, but not automatically "inferior" despite what some overzealous fanboys would have you believe.
And when they do sing (there were plenty), it was a terrible discord to behold.

And why all of the sudden we were talking about Macross 7? Where did that came from? If you want to complaint about M7 (which I am sure isn't 'duly vented' in your case), there is another thread for that stuff. But, just so you know, as much as I do not appreciate Macross 7, it was also insanely popular, and lots of people dig that stuff. So just because you don't like it, well, too bad.

Robotech on the other hand, was nothing more than a badly rearranged series of programs that would have been an affront to modern senses. It managed to create more BS than actually answering its own BS. Even when the answers were available, they were conveniently 'forgotten' by the next series and left more holes open than closed. Heck, they don't even know how to fix this 'patchwork' of theirs, as I saw their attempts as creating even more confusion for themselves. And neat ideas? Cut me some slack boyo, most of their better 'neat' ideas were rip-offs anyway. So if you are still clinging onto that stuff they sold you on the 80s, you haven't improved one single bit.

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-14 at 23:55.
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Old 2008-05-14, 20:20   Link #131
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Why all of the sudden we were talking about Macross 7? Where did that came from? I mean, if you want to complaint about M7 (which I am sure isn't 'duly vented' in your case), there is another thread for that stuff. But, just so you know, as much as I do not appreciate Macross 7, it was also insanely popular, and lots of people dig that stuff. So just because you don't like it, well, too bad.

Robotech on the other hand, was nothing more than a badly rearranged series of programs that would have been an affront to modern senses. It managed to create more BS than actually answering its own BS. Even when the answers were available, they were conveniently 'forgotten' by the next series and left more holes open than closed. Heck, they don't even know how to fix this 'patchwork' of theirs, as I saw their attempts as creating even more confusion for themselves. And neat ideas? Cut me some slack boyo, most of their better 'neat' ideas were rip-offs anyway. So if you are still clinging onto that stuff they sold you on the 80s, you haven't improved one single bit.

- Tak

there's also a thread for all that Robotech heathen stuff too, Tak.

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Old 2008-05-14, 20:23   Link #132
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there's also a thread for all that Robotech heathen stuff too, Tak.

There is? *Whistles*

OH wait, aren't YOU supposed to be on my side!

- Tak

Last edited by Tak; 2008-05-15 at 00:01.
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Old 2008-05-15, 07:16   Link #133
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On to other things now... :P

I am wondering very hard about the "Macross Quarter" This is not the Colony's Main ship (which from Macross 7 is attached at the front of the ship)

Its clearly transformable, and if they are taking it out, means they are confident all the bugs are worked out. But here is the thing that makes me wonder most. Why was this ship used versus the the Colonies main ship.

Was it because they did not want to leave MF defenseless, or its the next generation Macross flags ship with more fire power?

According to the story only the SMS has the VF-25, which is basically the only VF on that ship. Is it "their" ship? It would explain why it had all the markers of a "new" ship in the show.
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Old 2008-05-15, 07:33   Link #134
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I am wondering very hard about the "Macross Quarter" This is not the Colony's Main ship (which from Macross 7 is attached at the front of the ship)

Its clearly transformable, and if they are taking it out, means they are confident all the bugs are worked out. But here is the thing that makes me wonder most. Why was this ship used versus the the Colonies main ship.

Was it because they did not want to leave MF defenseless, or its the next generation Macross flags ship with more fire power?
Pretty much. Given that they were engaging an enemy of unknown strength, it would have been foolish to commit everything available. Holding most of one's fighting power in reserve will provide defense in case the Vajra attacked Macross Frontier, and provide a relatively safe location for the rescue force to retreat to.

The choice of sending out Macross Quarter is probably predicated on a combination of feeling that it's sufficient (along with the Guantanamo carriers) for the task and feeling that its loss would not cripple the fleet.

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According to the story only the SMS has the VF-25, which is basically the only VF on that ship. Is it "their" ship? It would explain why it had all the markers of a "new" ship in the show.
The full name is SMS Macross Quarter, so it's a safe guess that it's an SMS ship. While it's privately owned, most SMS personnel seem to have been subsumed into the NUNS military structure; hence Kathy's presence on the bridge as a liaison officer.
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Old 2008-05-15, 07:43   Link #135
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On to other things now... :P

I am wondering very hard about the "Macross Quarter" This is not the Colony's Main ship (which from Macross 7 is attached at the front of the ship)

Its clearly transformable, and if they are taking it out, means they are confident all the bugs are worked out. But here is the thing that makes me wonder most. Why was this ship used versus the the Colonies main ship.

Was it because they did not want to leave MF defenseless, or its the next generation Macross flags ship with more fire power?

According to the story only the SMS has the VF-25, which is basically the only VF on that ship. Is it "their" ship? It would explain why it had all the markers of a "new" ship in the show.
The "NEW MACROSS" battle class ship, is the "Flagship" of the fleet, hence it is the centralized HQ of the entire military presence in the fleet.

It thus defeats the entire purpose of the ship to deploy it away from Frontier.

Asking "Why?" is akin to asking "why" The "Pentagon" was not deployed with it's forces.



Thus it makes sense to send a ship that can act as the local command centre, or part of a joint expedition force HQ structure.

I'm sure the S.M.S won't be the only Contractor with there own Command ship, but reflecting on current hardware, we can assume that they are a rather more fortunate outfit with a better sponsor, so the "Macross Quarter" might indeed be a unique unit on the front.

It's probably unique in that the NUNS has never developed a smaller version of a transformable Capital ship. Probably because the combined arms of traditional medium sized capital ships and Valkyries patch that gap and also the lack of need.

Since if it requires mobile HQ that requires a Gun-ship HQ, they just send out one of the traditional classes i.e. "New Macross" from a colony planet.

However it seems that tactically if you already on a mobile fleet, the requirements of a deployable mobile HQ in smaller 1/4th of a full size class, therefore easier to maintain, is good idea if you are heading into a sector that you might expect to encounter an unknown enemy, where you might be expected to set up an advancing front...or secure a retreat.

It works both ways.
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Old 2008-05-15, 08:01   Link #136
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That makes sense, suddenly feels silly..

Any idea on its size or scale?
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Old 2008-05-15, 08:18   Link #137
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That makes sense, suddenly feels silly..

Any idea on its size or scale?
I think I spotted VF-17s sitting on the deck. They weren't exactly tiny by comparison to the rest of the ship. Proportional to what a F-14 on a Nimitz I'd say.
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Old 2008-05-15, 09:11   Link #138
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Ok this is has been bothering me, what powers the Valkyries? I ask after seeing the Vajra use their seemingly abundant energy to make their energy conversion armor almost impenetrable.

It seems like increasing the energy output would be the best way to boost the defensive ability of the VF's without having to had heavier armor plates.
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Old 2008-05-15, 09:24   Link #139
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A nuke reactor, well except the VF-0 and SV-51 those run on gas.
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Old 2008-05-15, 09:30   Link #140
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Originally Posted by squaresphere View Post
Ok this is has been bothering me, what powers the Valkyries? I ask after seeing the Vajra use their seemingly abundant energy to make their energy conversion armor almost impenetrable.

It seems like increasing the energy output would be the best way to boost the defensive ability of the VF's without having to had heavier armor plates.
Thermonuclear is tossed around alot. That means they're using fussion.
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