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Old 2008-04-09, 16:06   Link #21
Ryuujin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
There is nothing good about the Uchihas left now.
There was something good about them in the first place?
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:14   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Ryuujin View Post
There was something good about them in the first place?
im beggining to question that actually
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:25   Link #23
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Though I still don't know if this is really confirmed, it makes a lot of sense. There were several people who pointed out, that Itachi never killed anyone directly, especially not from Konoha. But it doesn't really make sense, that Madara would know this, let alone tell Sasuke about it. But maybe he needs Sasuke to have a special kind of mindset, to gain control of his mind...
I was a bit surprised when I saw the crazy way Itachi fought against Sasuke. It was not like how he was portrayed. The other crazy ones we saw were known to be crazy. For Itachi, that was not the case.

Secondly, as you pointed out, even the Uchiha massacre was not directly shown to us. Everything was shown to us and Sasuke took place with the help of genjutsu which is open to quite easy modifications.

Madara's inclusion in the Uchiha massacre can be considered as a valid argument after Itachi's words in one of the latest chapters. And, Madara was already shown to be active by then (his release of Kyuubi). So, Madara being part of what Itachi had done can be assumed to be true for now. I don't know about the mindset, but, if what he implies is true regarding Itachi, then, the way he controlled Itachi, can also be used to control Sasuke. For instance, what he will explain and what Sasuke may desire, may not have any impact on the end result, if Madara's control on people is absolute.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:29   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
There's no way that Madara would think of such an obvious and stupid lie that "Itachi was good". Simply because Sasuke would never believe him. So if Madara says so than it's either true for Konoha or true for Madara. Since in Madara's possibly crazy world (just remember Pein's thinking about how he will bring peace to the world) Itachi could be a good guy, but that also means that for Konoha he was a bad guy. So "good" does not necessarily mean good for Konoha. For example Haku was a good guy, but since he worked against Konoha he was in fact a bad guy.
Why not? Realistically, Sasuke should have realized that Itachi did not fight him at full strength (this could be corroborated by whatever Itachi whispered to Sasuke), so there should be some doubt in his mind as to the purpose of the fight. If another Uchiha, even if it is supposedly a "bad" Uchiha, were to tell him that Itachi never meant to kill him, Sasuke would of coure start to question his actions. And, if Madara could spice things up by either showing false memories or having Zetsu "show" a clip of the "real" Itachi, I don't see how Sasuke could not succumb to Madara's plan (whatever it may be).

Anyone and everyone can be tempted, unless they already have everything they want in life or they are "pure" (a word that could never be used to describe Sasuke). I can't say it is likely that Sasuke will be tempted, but it is very possible.

Here is my speculated baragaining chip that Madara could use (I doubt it will ever come to fruition, but who knows). Madara will get Sasuke to join the Akatsuki by convincing Sasuke that the Uchiha Clan can be Ressurected. Specifically, it is possible that Madara knows Edo Tensei (or more likely a superior resurrection technique, considering the fact that Madara is an Uchiha) and will get Sasuke to follow him by convincing Sasuke that if he can help Madara to regain his power, then the clan can come back to life. Since Sasuke is so hung up on his clan, I do not see why Sasuke would not choose such an option.
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:40   Link #25
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Is Itachi good or bad?

Does it really have to be THAT black and white? I mean really Itachi's probably in the gray. I mean I seriously doubt that he's Ned Flanders "good" but maybe he's not as evil as we thought he was. Given the fact we known Madara was involved in the Uchiha Massacre there's a SLIGHT chance that Itachi did not kill any of the Uchiha.
Tobi supposedly says that Itachi was "training" Sasuke. Sasuke wouldn't get as strong if Itachi acted nice to him. Itachi would have to act as a "wall" for Sasuke to surpass.
Even if Tobi's story is just a bunch of bull and Itachi really did just want to gouge his little bro's eyes, not to condone Itachi trying to kill his brother, but Itachi did say that he wanted Sasuke eyes to renew the Uchiha clan. The Uchiha have had a crappy past and Itachi wanted to make it better. Of course his methods aren't necessarily good.
we need a script for 397
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Old 2008-04-09, 16:49   Link #26
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What I want to know is where does Pein stand on all of this Uchiha business? It's obvious that he does not share the same ideals as Madara/Tobi, since his "original" plan had something to do with acquiring all of the bijuu, and creating/awakening the ultimate weapon or something to that effect iirc. I doubt Pein would go through all of the trouble to oversee such an organization, obtain every bijuu, JUST to skyrocket some Uchiha's level of dojutsu, especially since Pein believes he is a god. I am awaiting for the Pein/Madara turncoat, it's going to happen since the god-complex is apparently an underling for a "mortal", and ultimately the two have entirely different goals.
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:12   Link #27
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i knew it. sasuke and itachi are the good guys, all of the leaf are evil....its genius.
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:19   Link #28
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"Kinda confusing here... so i'll do a summary of the summary...

Sasuke is reacts confused to what madara says to him about Itachi Uchiha, he faints in agony...

And this is whats confuses me...
Madara tells Sasuke that everything Itachi did, was to keep him away from Madara...( speaking in third person again or written as that by summary author!!!), as a way to protect him (sasuke) from him (Madara). Also by the end speaks that Sasuke should know about Itachi's way of life."

Source: Vassill

Trans of pics released so far:

Madara removes his mask and invokes Amaterasu from Sasuke's eye
Madara: .... you must listen (as it is your responsibility?)

For all shinobi... for all of those in Konoha, and ultimately for his little brother, he had risked his life. Your brother Uchiha Itachi's admirable way of life!
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:19   Link #29
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Originally Posted by Nintendo View Post
i knew it. sasuke and itachi are the good guys, all of the leaf are evil....its genius.
I would so laugh if the truth was that the Hokages were planning to get all ninja countries under their control
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:21   Link #30
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by james3wk View Post
Sasuke would of coure start to question his actions.
The whole purpose of his life was to kill Itachi, so to convert such a guy's thoughts should be extremely difficult. I think simple words, whatever Madara says should not be enough, especially if he reveals himself to Sasuke as Madara.
Even if Sasuke does not believe in all that Itachi did say about Madara he should still know that this guy must be the one who helped Itachi to kill the clan. That's the only thing Sasuke is sure about, that Itachi had to have an accomplice, and now he meets that person (since he can clearly see his sharingan). So not only he now should think that this is his final enemy speaking to him, but also this person is talking against his "avenger" dreams. The only positive thing that Sasuke experienced is that this Tobi guy saved him from cerain death. Well this should be an important thing, but i guess not for Sasuke
So it's difficult to believe Sasuke questioning his own actions, maybe if Itachi's last words supported that. But Sasuke's evil laugh before collapsing is not a good sign
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:33   Link #31
HiroInazuma
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That evil laugh before he dropped might have been a mental breakdown one where he is laughing crazily that the person he sought out to killed was the person he wanted to live the most.
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:39   Link #32
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he invoked the amaterasu?!
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Old 2008-04-09, 18:45   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
But Sasuke's evil laugh before collapsing is not a good sign
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
That evil laugh before he dropped might have been a mental breakdown one where he is laughing crazily that the person he sought out to killed was the person he wanted to live the most.

Is this "evil laugh" you're talking about the grin that he made before collapsing? I think that calling that an evil laugh is kind of hyperbolic.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:01   Link #34
Suna no tate
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Don't forget that in the last chapter madara called himself a survivor. Most likely he will reveal some possible konoha plot to eliminate all the uchiha with Itachi and him as the splinter agents. Perhaps it was part of some secret bargaining deal for peace to avoid an impossible defeat, the deaths of all sharingan user the price asked, something that could only be accomplished by complete sabotage. After all it is indeed extremely odd that all the uchiha were in town that night (ie none on missions) and extremely odd that none of konohas watchful anbu and many skilled jounin (kakashi, for example) detected anything was at work. Itachi is skilled but remember that during his last visit to konoha, try as he might to be quiet, even gai sensei was rused, talk less the systematic murder and accompanying screams of an entire clan.

No, i suspect the truth is itachi and madara's destruction of the clan were under orders from someone high in konoha's government.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:10   Link #35
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@Suna no tate: good observation. about how all sharingan users were there in the village during the massacre.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:21   Link #36
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Lol, I wonder what kind of impact the Uchiha-haters would receive if this "Uchiha's are the good guys, they were screwed over by the ones who we thought were good" thing turns out to be true.

All the Uchiha's being at the same time in the village does seem pretty weird. What a major twist it would be if the Hokage's were the bad guys. I think the scenario is interesting, although I'm pretty sure it won't happen due to shounen-manga-style-plot writing.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:23   Link #37
Monkey D. Luffy
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I'm not going to be quick to say that Itachi was good, this is Madara after all. Even if it might seem like a simple plan we really don't now what he will say and what emotions he'll evoke from Sasuke but it surely would be a nice twist especially to where Sasuke's character will go from here and the way we see the Uchiha's.
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Old 2008-04-09, 20:34   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Don't forget that in the last chapter madara called himself a survivor. Most likely he will reveal some possible konoha plot to eliminate all the uchiha with Itachi and him as the splinter agents. Perhaps it was part of some secret bargaining deal for peace to avoid an impossible defeat, the deaths of all sharingan user the price asked, something that could only be accomplished by complete sabotage. After all it is indeed extremely odd that all the uchiha were in town that night (ie none on missions) and extremely odd that none of konohas watchful anbu and many skilled jounin (kakashi, for example) detected anything was at work. Itachi is skilled but remember that during his last visit to konoha, try as he might to be quiet, even gai sensei was rused, talk less the systematic murder and accompanying screams of an entire clan.

No, i suspect the truth is itachi and madara's destruction of the clan were under orders from someone high in konoha's government.
that would be very interesting.... if it was that kinda of manga. i expect things like that from stories like FMA. i don't think kishi is that good to pull it off.

it would crush naruto to find out that the people he was working for were evil. if it had anything to do with konoha being responsible, it could have been root. maybe danzou hates uchihas to the core. maybe that is why he would risk konoha's security just to assassinate sasuke.
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Old 2008-04-09, 21:33   Link #39
Vanitas
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Don't forget that in the last chapter madara called himself a survivor. Most likely he will reveal some possible konoha plot to eliminate all the uchiha with Itachi and him as the splinter agents. Perhaps it was part of some secret bargaining deal for peace to avoid an impossible defeat, the deaths of all sharingan user the price asked, something that could only be accomplished by complete sabotage. After all it is indeed extremely odd that all the uchiha were in town that night (ie none on missions) and extremely odd that none of konohas watchful anbu and many skilled jounin (kakashi, for example) detected anything was at work. Itachi is skilled but remember that during his last visit to konoha, try as he might to be quiet, even gai sensei was rused, talk less the systematic murder and accompanying screams of an entire clan.

No, i suspect the truth is itachi and madara's destruction of the clan were under orders from someone high in konoha's government.
That's a very interesting point. That may as be the case, since the word of Madara/Tobi that we have to go off of is "I am a fellow survivor."
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Old 2008-04-09, 21:50   Link #40
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That would be interesting i mean i always suspected it was weird that all the uchihas were all there perhaps konoha did see them as a threat or maybe itachi discovered some kinda coup they were planning.
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