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Old 2009-09-12, 17:48   Link #21221
Revolutionist
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I agree that it is a bit unrealistic for characters like Kallen and to some extent Suzaku to feel nothing after they've racked up hundreds if not thousands of kills. However, the enemy is mostly in Knightmares or other vehicles so I suppose that is a bit different since all you see is the KMF blow up, as opposed to shooting someone and see blood fly all over the place, or blowing their heads off.

Btw, did Kallen kill anybody outside of her Knightmare? Like with a gun or that knife pouch? I know she tried to take out Suzaku (didn't work out too well for her lol), but did she actually kill someone up close and personal?

It's a lot easier to kill someone if you don't see them actually die, anybody can do that. It's another thing to actually walk up to them and take their life, not everybody is cut out for that...
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:01   Link #21222
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Oh really? What would terrorists do with poison gas?
Even though the Black Knights are shown to be good because Lelouch tries to instill a sense of justice in them doesn't make them a righteous organization. Even if they're called knights they're still terrorists because of the tactics and their methods.
Matter of perspective. Those who staged the American Revolution were terrorists and used (at the time) quite dishonorable tactics to win. Nevertheless, they were fighting an oppressive monarchy and won. Same concept here. Don't treat Britannia as if it's exempt from all responsibility. Proper war between two independent nations is one thing, guerrilla warfare within an occupied nation is quite another.

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Lloyd pointed out the irony of terrorists calling themselves knights. And tbh, their actions didn't help their cause to appear as champions of justice. In this sense Lelouch is a hypocrite, but can't be blamed because of what he has to work with. Ougi and the Japanese resistance are just not suited to anything more than cowardly tactics, in other word terrorism.
It wasn't Ohgi's group that took a building full of people hostage and started offing them just as a reminder. They were actually trying to do some good. Again, stop acting like Britannia is the victim.

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Britannia wasn't going to use poison gas on elevens because they cared about their slave labor. So it's not like Naoto's cell stole it to keep the Britannians from using it on Elevens, they most likely stole it thinking they could use it in a plot against the government, which would ultimately cause innocent people to die.
They don't give a damn about slave labor, at least not enough that they won't slaughter an entire ghetto for the most flimsy of reasons. I suggest watching the first episode again. As far as Kallen's cell new, Britannia was making poison gas. And since they're not going to be poisoning their own people, that only leaves Elevens. Stealing the gas was prudent, regardless of what they did or did not intend to do with it.
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:05   Link #21223
bladeofdarkness
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its funny that you pin the blame for lelouch using cowardly tactics on ougi and the japanese resistance movements
as opposed to say... lelouch being the kind of man who wouldnt recognize a sense of honor if it hit him in the back of the head, and who PREFERS TO USE cowardly tactics at every turn

the japanese resistance movements were not equipped to match britannia's much larger and more technologicly advance army
and once they got weapons that can match britannia's they proved to be much more effective
lelouch himself noted that during the final battle the black knights proved a far more powerful adversary then he had imagined
and again, he only beat them because he has no honor, but manipulates others who do
holding the student council hostage to lure suzaku into a gefun net
having gilford agree to a one on one dual and springing a trap.
using the hostages to force the black knights to keep him from getting nuked.
willingly sacrificing his front line to lure his enemies into a trap SEED style
lelouch's prefered method of fighting is to use trickery and deceit over honorable battle at every turn
dont pin this on the black knights, because he stays that way even when becoming emperor of britannia

and whatever they took the gas for, it couldnt have been worse then what britannia would have used it for (if they had it)
they have been shown to have no problems with wiping out entire ghettos with hardly an excuse
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:15   Link #21224
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Let us just say that the battlefield is no place for honor, for more often than not, it will get you killed. Cowardly tactics work, and frankly, not everyone is bulletproof superknight Orange, who fights robots using swords and flair.
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:18   Link #21225
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Dragon said it best. Honor is all well and good when you're the superior fighter, but the underdog can't play by the same code and hope to win.

He didn't sacrifice his front line on purpose. As you point out, they got through it. He sacrificed his ground troops, but that was a necessary evil considering his position. As for having no sense of honor, that's all relative. Xingke tried the same terrain strategy Lelouch used, just scaled down. Would you label him as without honor? Everyone in-universe was probably like, "Damn, wish I had thought of that."
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Old 2009-09-12, 18:18   Link #21226
bladeofdarkness
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Let us just say that the battlefield is no place for honor, for more often than not, it will get you killed. Cowardly tactics work, and frankly, not everyone is bulletproof superknight Orange, who fights robots using swords and flair.
my main point was that this is not ougi's fault
the guy who has no sense of honor and uses cowardly tactics at every turn is lelouch himself

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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
Dragon said it best. Honor is all well and good when you're the superior fighter, but the underdog can't play by the same code and hope to win.

He didn't sacrifice his front line on purpose. As you point out, they got through it. He sacrificed his ground troops, but that was a necessary evil considering his position. As for having no sense of honor, that's all relative. Xingke tried the same terrain strategy Lelouch used, just scaled down. Would you label him as without honor? Everyone in-universe was probably like, "Damn, wish I had thought of that."
lelouch keeps using that same mind frame after he takes over britannia
he uses the hostages as leverage to get the black knights to keep shnnizel from nuking his ass
and he fires the volcano when his own front line and ground troops are also in the blast range
xing-ke himself says that the only reason he didnt predict it was that he couldnt believe lelouch would sacrifice his entire front line with such a move

Revolutionist's argument of "ougi and the japanese resistance groups are not suited for anything but cowardly tactics" as a way of explaining why lelouch chooses to use them at every turn is bullshit
lelouch chooses to use dirty coward tactics
because, when it comes to strategy, lelouch is a dirty coward
and it works like a charm

and as for kallen feeling guilty over killing people
she's the only member of the black knights to express any sense of remorse over any of the stuff that they do
so while she may not be crying herself to sleep every night over the lives she's taken, she's at least shows that she isnt as emotion free as almost every other character in the show is
its war, and she fights for what she believes to be justice
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Old 2009-09-12, 19:21   Link #21227
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The funny thing is the black knight officers never contested zero's strategy all based to ambush, traps, back attack, etc...they drop away the samurai honor code because they seen the result and the gain.

Britannia fight dirt, they could do it too.

After first zero error (cause sister-doll-psychology) they started very fast to contest the absence of gain and we know what's happened after.
However always a one-way characterization, to show some event with a verbal contrast between zero and BK officers was more better, because those could to highlight better Lelouch's skill about to manipulate people or use the geass on them too
Then, their fast betrayal without check the proofs could be more justify.

They could use better all the time wasted for episode like the school festival, the giant pizza act. 2nd or the love day, etc...to show a britannia school like a japanese school with the same clubs, celebration and activities, considering britannia seen the japan people like trash was the worst bullshit.
And write a more good storyboard for every character.
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Old 2009-09-12, 19:47   Link #21228
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
my main point was that this is not ougi's fault
the guy who has no sense of honor and uses cowardly tactics at every turn is lelouch himself

lelouch keeps using that same mind frame after he takes over britannia
he uses the hostages as leverage to get the black knights to keep shnnizel from nuking his ass
and he fires the volcano when his own front line and ground troops are also in the blast range
xing-ke himself says that the only reason he didnt predict it was that he couldnt believe lelouch would sacrifice his entire front line with such a move
Because Lelouch was actually at a disadvantage here. He had expended his own forces putting down rebellions across the Britannian mainland, thrown the country into chaos with his "reforms," Schneizel had gotten Damocles operational faster than Lelouch had expected, and had further crippled Britannia's command structure by nuking Pendragon. Lelouch only had the forces he brought with him to retake Japan to use, since the rest of his military were held up around the world. Remember, a month ago the UFN needed to take Japan and incite a simultaneous revolt in all the Areas to even have a prayer of beating Britannia, now all of a sudden they are actually BETTER than Britannia.

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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
Revolutionist's argument of "ougi and the japanese resistance groups are not suited for anything but cowardly tactics" as a way of explaining why lelouch chooses to use them at every turn is bullshit
lelouch chooses to use dirty coward tactics
because, when it comes to strategy, lelouch is a dirty coward
and it works like a charm
This isn't entirely true. One of the points of boxing the Black Knights in at Narita was because otherwise it would have been a repeat of Saitama. Lelouch needed to give them a trial by fire to show them their own power, but also to make them see that this was the sort of thing they would HAVE to do if they ever wanted their country back.

Cornelia didn't need to be better than Lelouch to beat him. She didn't even need to be equal to Lelouch to beat him. All she needed was for her troops to not lose too quickly and the terrorists would panic when they didn't have a strong forward momentum.

Lelouch's use of cowardly (prudent) tactics was designed to preserve his own troops' lives, be it from actual compassion or simple practicality. When he learns of the Guren's damage he orders a retreat saying "This has become a war of attrition." The others comment that they were winning since the JLF had gotten its second wind thanks to Tohdoh's coordinating them to focus their fire, but Lelouch pulls his troops out. He may be willing to sacrifice lives, but until the final arc he is not willing to waste lives.

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and as for kallen feeling guilty over killing people
she's the only member of the black knights to express any sense of remorse over any of the stuff that they do
so while she may not be crying herself to sleep every night over the lives she's taken, she's at least shows that she isnt as emotion free as almost every other character in the show is
its war, and she fights for what she believes to be justice
Ohgi and the others are still at least the sort of people who would kill Britannian and Japanese civilians just to save themselves, use their own people as shields, act indignant when those "shields" protested, want to take credit (not responsibility) for Shinjuku simply because Clovis was killed, only feel sad about Kawaguchi because the JLF were going to die too, go along with Zero's plan to obstruct them anyway, compliment Zero when he dropped the settlement plates, enjoy the powertrip from taking children hostage, and then try to gun down those children because they pointed out that justice should apply to everyone.

In Shinjuku, three adult (future) members of the BK ganged up on two kids. They backed down when ONE other kid (and the ONLY one who could actually fight) shows up to stop them.

Beyond this, one Black Knight -who shall remain nameless-, abducted an unconcious gunshot victim, denied her proper medical treatment, never mentioned this to his friends and comrades, and lied to a subordinate's face in order to leave his post during a crucial mission in which he was 2nd in command.

Last edited by Betteroffer; 2009-09-12 at 21:30.
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Old 2009-09-12, 20:45   Link #21229
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Originally Posted by Betteroffer View Post
Beyond this, one Black Knight -who shall remain nameless-, abducted an unconcious gunshot victim, denied her proper medical treatment, never mentioned this to his friends and comrades, and lied to a subordinate's face in order to leave his post during a crucial mission in which he was 2nd in command.
That's the motivation about the fact Ougi refused to become the japan prime minister in my story, he understood his bullshits.

However, it's very hard to find a battle fought with a respect for the honor, etc in the books.

Return about Kallen, it's funny like in the correct translation of last drama she lied to everybody for nothing, because with the fireworks all the other understood enough the truth about Lelouch's plan.
Then a contradiction about what had to be the final result.
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Old 2009-09-12, 20:46   Link #21230
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Wait. Are we still talking about Kallen here? Maybe we should move it to the Lelouch thread.
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Old 2009-09-12, 20:48   Link #21231
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Lelouch used underhanded tactics because of the terrorists' limitations. He saw first hand how inept they were in Shinjiku and later Saitama. 1 unit (Lancelot) single handedly destroyd all of his pawns, and later vs Cornelia elite they were again obliterated. Not only did Britannia outnumber the terrorists it also outclassed them. This was made blatantly obvious in the battle of Tokyo where once a cohesive defense was mounted they lost their momentum and collapsed. He kept using those tactics after becoming Emperor because a) they work wonderfully and b) his army was at a severe disadvantage.

He didn't lose his front line troops, he actually retracted his lines so almost 90% of those caught in the Mt Fuji blast where BKs. What he sacrificed were his ground troops. Anyways, unlike previous battles, Mt. Fuji was a counter-measure, a last resort as opposed to being the basis of his plan like in the 1st battle of Tokyo, or the rescue operation early on in R2. He didn't think the BKs would be such formidable pawns in Schneizel's hands.

I'm not trying to make Britannia the victim, but to assume that the resistance is justified in their actions is ridiculous. Their actions up until Zero takes over are mostly limited to terrorism, bombings and the like. The thing is most of the casualties are Elevens. The terrorists don't give a damn about their own people, so they use them as shields, risk their lives by living amongst them and even kill them in their bombings and stuff.

How is Britannia supposed to differentiate between a terrorist and a civilian in a ghetto? I'm sorry, but if your job as a soldier is to protect the peace, and the enemy is disguised as civlians, and they're killing your buddies you have no choice but kill everything in sight. That's the sad reality.

Terrorists are people who choose to fight despite knowing they are weak. They choose to do what they do because they think it's the only way but ultimately all they do is cause more harm to those they claim to be fighting for. If Ougi's cell hadn't stolen the capsule, would Shinjuku have been destroyed? If they know Britannia doesn't tolerate terrorism then they are just as reponsible for all the deaths as the Britannian soldiers who pull the trigger. The choice was made by the Elevens, not the Britannians....

That's another way of looking at things besides the whole Britannia is evil Britannians are racist etc. This wasn't shown in the series, but I bet that there were Elevens killed by terrorists for trying to do what Suzaku did, cooperate with Britannia and try to work within the system.
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Old 2009-09-12, 21:02   Link #21232
Betteroffer
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That's the motivation about the fact Ougi refused to become the japan prime minister in my story, he understood his bullshits.

However, it's very hard to find a battle fought with a respect for the honor, etc in the books.

Return about Kallen, it's funny like in the correct translation of last drama she lied to everybody for nothing, because with the fireworks all the other understood enough the truth about Lelouch's plan.
Then a contradiction about what had to be the final result.
Well I assumed Kallen maintained the deception for two reasons.

First there is the saying that the number of people who know a secret is inversely proportional to the ability to keep that secret, meaning that it could slip out one day when one of them might have gotten drunk, made a deathbed reveal, or they just got tired of everyone badmouthing their friend.

Second, I would imagine she wouldn't want her friends to be burdened with having to know that Lelouch did everything with the plan to sacrifice himself for a greater good. She would prefer that only she suffers when she hears people badmouth Lelouch, rather than make Rivalz and Milly feel the same, just so she can have someone to talk with about it.
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Old 2009-09-12, 21:59   Link #21233
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In fact that's was the idea looking the anime ending.

But in the picture drama, when the fireworks start, they say:

Milly: ...it's just like he promised.
Nunnally: Eh?
Rivalz: He... promised. That we would all come back here and enjoy the fireworks
Kallen: I see...
Milly: then, him...
Nunnally: They're beautiful.
Etc...

Nunnally take part and stop the dialogue, but too late, the school council understood, however few people know that secret.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:16   Link #21234
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With Kallen's victory over Suzaku, can it finally be said that she is the top ace of the Code Geass universe? Seems that way to me.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:24   Link #21235
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With Kallen's victory over Suzaku, can it finally be said that she is the top ace of the Code Geass universe? Seems that way to me.
Well, most people in this community are pretty biased, but yeah pretty much.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:29   Link #21236
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With Kallen's victory over Suzaku, can it finally be said that she is the top ace of the Code Geass universe? Seems that way to me.
Strictly speaking, the creators probably wanted it to be one of those "They are actually even, but Kallen just happened to win by a hair this one time." endings since both were so heavily battered, but if one looks with a critical eye at their fights throughout the series, then Kallen comes out looking a fair bit better than Suzaku.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:36   Link #21237
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Heh, well, Suzaku seems to get an unfair power-up with the curse of Geass thingy.

But Kallen has always been better than Suzaku to me, even since S1, Suzaku always seem to get a Deus Ex Machina whenever Kallen was about to kick his ass.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:44   Link #21238
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
Heh, well, Suzaku seems to get an unfair power-up with the curse of Geass thingy.

But Kallen has always been better than Suzaku to me, even since S1, Suzaku always seem to get a Deus Ex Machina whenever Kallen was about to kick his ass.
Kallen's comment that the Guren was supposed to still be a bit better in terms of its "specs" was supposed to even them out again by giving each pilot some sort of bonus.

The thing is, we have been discussing just what this "spec" boost could have been and we can't come up with anything that could trully rival the shear insane speed boost Suzaku's Geass power-up gave him. Thus we believe Kallen got a very small boost from her "better specs," while Suzaku got a sizeable boost from his Geass command. With this, the fact that Suzaku was only able to match Kallen (and even then he lost) speaks to the idea that Kallen was better than him by more than just a narrow margin.
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Old 2009-09-12, 23:56   Link #21239
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Well there's also the fact that according to the plan Suzaku was supposed to die in battle so he could become Zero, so he had to put up a decent fight yet still lose to Kallen...it could be that he didn't give 100%.
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Old 2009-09-13, 00:01   Link #21240
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Well there's also the fact that according to the plan Suzaku was supposed to die in battle so he could become Zero, so he had to put up a decent fight yet still lose to Kallen...it could be that he didn't give 100%.
Yeah, but I don' think the Geass curse will allow him to NOT give 100%, cause Kallen is going in with the whole intention of killing him, and if he doesn't give it his all, Kallen could kill him, and his Geass will naturally tell him to fight harder.
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