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Old 2008-04-13, 22:21   Link #201
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Did you not read what I wrote? She needs to reaffirm that he is the same man. If we want to go into semantics, its probably the best start to a relationship she could have asked for, and arguably better than anything anyone else ever recieved.

And to be perfectly frank, I was surprised by how far they took it. I expected much less development. For example; I did not expect them to actually say flat out that she had come to love Zero. That's the only concrete love we've been told about (excluding Mao).
they did not flat out say she loved Zero. Don't twist the words too much Var, implication is different from actual text.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:21   Link #202
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Did you not read what I wrote? She needs to reaffirm that he is the same man. If we want to go into semantics, its probably the best start to a relationship she could have asked for, and arguably better than anything anyone else ever recieved.

And to be perfectly frank, I was surprised by how far they took it. I expected much less development. For example; I did not expect them to actually say flat out that she had come to love Zero. That's the only concrete love we've been told about (excluding Mao).
Yeah yeah, I read, just remember that it's only a beginning
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:23   Link #203
Dann of Thursday
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She seems to be coming around to the fact that Lelouch is Zero, so I really don't think this is going to be much of a problem. I always took her feelings toward Zero to be intense admiration, but I guess it really was love or at least she thinks it is. Lelouch didn't seem to mind it at all either.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:24   Link #204
Var
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Geez, this lowered my opinion of her even more since she cracked even more easily than Shirley.

Hopefully she's a stronger person this time round or Lelouch's going to end up being betrayed again.
Alright, so, during a strenuous battle for your country your leader deserts and subsequently, when you chase him down, he claims to have simply exploited you and your country. He is shot, and the enemy points a gun at you. What would you do?

Also, they've already shown that she's far stronger than in S1. She stood up to Lelouch and even prepared to give up her life for him.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:25   Link #205
metronome
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
She wants him to reaffirm several things: that he is the same man she's developed feelings for, the man who's led her to victory, the man whom she's followed devoutly, and so on.

So while it is the same person, she needs to be certain of who it is that she's actually following; whether its Zero, Lelouch Lamperouge, or Lelouch Vi Britannia.
understandable.
but she needs to learn that there is big difference between public image and real image:P
even she herself had double identity before, at school and at duty
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:28   Link #206
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@evilplushie:She does apparent learn about in the missing year from C.C., but doesn't know that it was used on her (or for a very benign purpose).

@var: If the Karen-Lelouch relationship is strained, it would be from the shock that Lelouch was aways within a mile(?) of karen for a larger portion of the day and week, and still not reveal his identity.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:30   Link #207
Var
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
they did not flat out say she loved Zero. Don't twist the words too much Var, implication is different from actual text.
Now you're being obstinant. The wording is that her devotion and adoration for him are her own, that her heart was her own, and that she should be proud of it. Her words used the verb 慕う even. That simple verb sets it as more than simply admiring him.

Did you want them to flat out have her pronounce her love for him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scifijimmy View Post
@var: If the Karen-Lelouch relationship is strained, it would be from the shock that Lelouch was aways within a mile(?) of karen for a larger portion of the day and week, and still not reveal his identity.
Fair enough, but I'm pretty sure something as minimal as that she'd have worked out of her system in the year time she's had to think.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:31   Link #208
metronome
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
After rewatching the last part of episode 25 again, it seems I was mistaken about one thing. At no point does Kallen know about what the Geass does. Nobody tells her in 25, nobody tells her in the flashback. So all the excuses about Kallen being confused about being mindcontrolled holds no water. She has no frigging idea. She obviously found out later since she does know about it in R2 but basically, she deserts Zero over the MERE fact that he wasn't the person she thought he was. Geez, this lowered my opinion of her even more since she cracked even more easily than Shirley.

Hopefully she's a stronger person this time round or Lelouch's going to end up being betrayed again.
about that, it is hard on her,
she in state of shock~~
and she is a bit naive too, I mean, come now, zero has never shown his face, and it is clear that he is not japanese, why would he helps the japanese, there must be a personal reason.
and in the end she herself cant accept that zero is really doing stuffs for his own personal reason, while actually in the war, there always personal reasons, including herself.

so well, I think she is quite a simple naive girl, may be she is a bit stronger than shirley, but I don't think she is really a super strong a girl
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:37   Link #209
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Alright, so, during a strenuous battle for your country your leader deserts and subsequently, when you chase him down, he claims to have simply exploited you and your country. He is shot, and the enemy points a gun at you. What would you do?

Also, they've already shown that she's far stronger than in S1. She stood up to Lelouch and even prepared to give up her life for him.
Right after she prepared to shoot him that is.

Let's put it this way, Kallen already has a reason to suspect Zero has a reason for deserting the battlefield. Remember what Ougi told her? And she was close enough to hear from their conversation that Nanali was kidnapped and that Lelouch wanted to save her. If she had any form of brain at all, she should remember that Lelouch pretty much adores his sister.

And exploiting? Seriously, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if she didn't have such fangirlish expectations towards Zero in the first place, putting him up on a pedestal and idolizing him. Like he said, the end result is that Japan will be liberated. The OoTBK is only a success with Zero/Lelouch. In fact, their only hope of winning the current battle at that time was Zero. And what does she do? Run off after some words from Suzaku. This is the same Kallen who basically faced down a few armed guards back when she and Zero stole Gawain. She might not have succeeded in defeating Suzaku, but she could at least have tried.

The problem is that she acts more like a fangirl and less like an actual freedom fighter who wants to liberate Japan.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:41   Link #210
metronome
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post

The problem is that she acts more like a fangirl and less like an actual freedom fighter who wants to liberate Japan.
that's quite true
heck
even one of my friends was shocked when he watched the last episode of season 1.

he said:"huh? what the hell? kallen doesn't know he is using them??? man, that's common sense, how come she doesn't even know that?"

hahahaha
using and being used is pretty common, not only in war.
eg, when you work, your boss has his own personal reason, you have your own personal reason.
you use your boss to get you work and money to fulfill your personal reason, and your boss use you and your ability to get closer to his personal reason.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:43   Link #211
Dann of Thursday
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Well, you could say that she was blinded by her feelings and admiration of him and led herself to believe that such a thing couldn't be true.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:45   Link #212
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Now you're being obstinant. The wording is that her devotion and adoration for him are her own, that her heart was her own, and that she should be proud of it. Her words used the verb 慕う even. That simple verb sets it as more than simply admiring him.

Did you want them to flat out have her pronounce her love for him?
*sigh* here, I got the entire exchange from the closed captions:

「ルルーシュ。あなたはずっと私を騙していた」
「ゼロが本当は君のクラスメートだったことか、それともギアスの力のことか」
「両方よ。答えて、あなたは私にもギアスを使ったの?
私の心を捻じ曲げて従わせて・・」

「君の心は君だけのものだ。
ゼロへの忠誠も憧れもすべて」

「カレン、誇りに思っていい。君が決めたんだ。
 君が選んだんだ。この、私を。信じられないか?」

「信じたい。だから、奴隷になってでも…」
「そうか」
「でも、私が信じるのはゼロで、ルルーシュ、あんたなんかじゃない!」

shitau is nowhere to be seen. you misheard (従わせて perhaps?). I thought you were just talking about her saying she believes in Zero at the end. 0_o
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:45   Link #213
evil|plushie
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It's kinda strange how she even developed such feelings as it is.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:46   Link #214
KrimzonStriker
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Which would mean that him being Lelouch is a good thing because it brings that pedestal down a little and makes him more... real
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:48   Link #215
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Right after she prepared to shoot him that is.

Let's put it this way, Kallen already has a reason to suspect Zero has a reason for deserting the battlefield. Remember what Ougi told her? And she was close enough to hear from their conversation that Nanali was kidnapped and that Lelouch wanted to save her. If she had any form of brain at all, she should remember that Lelouch pretty much adores his sister.

And exploiting? Seriously, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if she didn't have such fangirlish expectations towards Zero in the first place, putting him up on a pedestal and idolizing him. Like he said, the end result is that Japan will be liberated. The OoTBK is only a success with Zero/Lelouch. In fact, their only hope of winning the current battle at that time was Zero. And what does she do? Run off after some words from Suzaku. This is the same Kallen who basically faced down a few armed guards back when she and Zero stole Gawain. She might not have succeeded in defeating Suzaku, but she could at least have tried.

The problem is that she acts more like a fangirl and less like an actual freedom fighter who wants to liberate Japan.
In context of what I said to ashlay, about the way they worded her conversation in Ep2, that she had come to love him, her reaction fits. If we exclude the aforementioned, then sure its fangirlish, but if we take it into account, its akin to someone being betrayed by the person they admire and love. It doesn't matter what said person brings to the table, they have betrayed you and and your heart. It is that fact that makes her hesitants and eventual departure make more sense than just senseless dismissal as fangirlism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
*sigh* here, I got the entire exchange from the closed captions:

「ルルーシュ。あなたはずっと私を騙していた」
「ゼロが本当は君のクラスメートだったことか、それともギアスの力のことか」
「両方よ。答えて、あなたは私にもギアスを使ったの?
私の心を捻じ曲げて従わせて・・」

「君の心は君だけのものだ。
ゼロへの忠誠も憧れもすべて」

「カレン、誇りに思っていい。君が決めたんだ。
 君が選んだんだ。この、私を。信じられないか?」

「信じたい。だから、奴隷になってでも…」
「そうか」
「でも、私が信じるのはゼロで、ルルーシュ、あんたなんかじゃない!」

shitau is nowhere to be seen. you misheard (従わせて perhaps?). I thought you were just talking about her saying she believes in Zero at the end. 0_o
Well, before anything, where did this come from? I suppose it is possible my ears suck. I'll have to relisten to the episode. Lest this is official, at which point I'll retract my statement.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:49   Link #216
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
It's kinda strange how she even developed such feelings as it is.
Zero's just her ideal man. If Lelouch can be that man, then of course she'll develop feelings for him too.
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:55   Link #217
KrimzonStriker
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Oh c'mon, he's far from ideal, just look at how she reacts to him as Lelouch. Now she can see all his flaws as well, and you know what, that's a good thing, it's what builds a relationship
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Old 2008-04-13, 22:56   Link #218
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
In context of what I said to ashlay, about the way they worded her conversation in Ep2, that she had come to love him, her reaction fits. If we exclude the aforementioned, then sure its fangirlish, but if we take it into account, its akin to someone being betrayed by the person they admire and love. It doesn't matter what said person brings to the table, they have betrayed you and and your heart. It is that fact that makes her hesitants and eventual departure make more sense than just senseless dismissal as fangirlism.
I hope her girly fit of emotion was worth losing the battle at the end of S1 and was worth everyone being captured and Lulu being mindwiped then -_-.

And I doubt she 'loves' Zero because in all honesty, what does she know about Zero? I mean, Zero is supposed to be her ideal man? Someone who never shows his true face and whom they know almost nothing about? If you can consider that kind of emotion as 'love' then imo, it's no diff. than the 'love' fangirls all around the world fell for their teen idols.

edit: I agree with the part about it being better that she now realises Lelouch is Zero.
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:00   Link #219
metronome
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so now the question is, why does she come back ;and again help fetch lelouch?
she is really being inconsistent eh
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Old 2008-04-13, 23:03   Link #220
evil|plushie
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I guess she realised that she was being way too overemotional in S1 and that she had screwed up majorly.
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