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Old 2009-11-18, 16:09   Link #22101
azul120
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Shirley being uninvolved in the political/military struggle is no reason to condemn her. (For being a high school student, I think being the first one to try to welcome an 'eleven' into their heretofore Britannian-exclusive school is enough to qualify as support for 'change'). As for what Shirley discouraged specifically, it was more Lelouch's destructive and self-damaging tendencies than his desire to change the world.

As for my disagreements on Suzaku: I don't think he was wrong from a moral standpoint, because government is something society constructed. National identity is not something I consider fundamental to human life. Regardless of the legitimacy of the Britannian occupation, the ultimate goal of change should simply be whether the people there can be happy. As the system did allow participation by conquered peoples, trying to encourage it and improve conditions instead of destroying it wasn't morally wrong.
The Honorary Britannian system was a sham, in which participants would never have any of the opportunities that natural-born and bred citizens had. You may remember that Suzaku was not allowed to carry a gun in episode 1, and was given one by the general as part of his order to execute Lelouch when they stumbled upon C. C..

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As for Suzaku's stance being an 'excuse' to enact his death wish, this isn't true. Suzaku's death wish is in addition to his desire to help the Japanese people. And once he met Euphie, he began to abandon the self-punishment entirely. You can level the same illegitimacy of motivation at Kallen, who was fighting Britannia at the start of the series only to lash out for the death of her brother (she had no 'hope' for achieving anything). Only in meeting Zero did her destructive impulse begin to turn into a positive one (hope for actually liberating Japan). In fact, by the time Suzaku lost Euphie, he had lost any desire for self-punishment, instead focusing almost entirely (aside from helping the people his way) on getting revenge on Zero. Suzaku's deathwish doesn't even factor again until after he blows up Tokyo.
What about the time when that Japanese assailant attacks him, only to be foiled by Suzaku's "live" geass command? Besides, getting himself killed would mean his efforts for change, oft-counterproductive as they were, would go to waste.

And Kallen had decided that she would rather go down fighting against Britannia rather than living a sheltered upbringing within it. Red pill vs. blue pill.
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Old 2009-11-18, 16:15   Link #22102
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Shirley being uninvolved in the political/military struggle is no reason to condemn her. (For being a high school student, I think being the first one to try to welcome an 'eleven' into their heretofore Britannian-exclusive school is enough to qualify as support for 'change'). As for what Shirley discouraged specifically, it was more Lelouch's destructive and self-damaging tendencies than his desire to change the world.

As for my disagreements on Suzaku: I don't think he was wrong from a moral standpoint, because government is something society constructed. National identity is not something I consider fundamental to human life. Regardless of the legitimacy of the Britannian occupation, the ultimate goal of change should simply be whether the people there can be happy. As the system did allow participation by conquered peoples, trying to encourage it and improve conditions instead of destroying it wasn't morally wrong.

As for Suzaku's stance being an 'excuse' to enact his death wish, this isn't true. Suzaku's death wish is in addition to his desire to help the Japanese people. And once he met Euphie, he began to abandon the self-punishment entirely. You can level the same illegitimacy of motivation at Kallen, who was fighting Britannia at the start of the series only to lash out for the death of her brother (she had no 'hope' for achieving anything). Only in meeting Zero did her destructive impulse begin to turn into a positive one (hope for actually liberating Japan). In fact, by the time Suzaku lost Euphie, he had lost any desire for self-punishment, instead focusing almost entirely (aside from helping the people his way) on getting revenge on Zero. Suzaku's deathwish doesn't even factor again until after he blows up Tokyo.
Bravo.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 2009-11-18, 16:54   Link #22103
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Shirley being uninvolved in the political/military struggle is no reason to condemn her. (For being a high school student, I think being the first one to try to welcome an 'eleven' into their heretofore Britannian-exclusive school is enough to qualify as support for 'change'). As for what Shirley discouraged specifically, it was more Lelouch's destructive and self-damaging tendencies than his desire to change the world.
I'll agree on the first part. She's outside the conflict, just a bystander. Shirley accepting Suzaku in not that big a deal, since Ashford is always shown to be fairly progressive (or perhaps accepting would be closer) as far as it comes to other cultures.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for my disagreements on Suzaku: I don't think he was wrong from a moral standpoint, because government is something society constructed. National identity is not something I consider fundamental to human life. Regardless of the legitimacy of the Britannian occupation, the ultimate goal of change should simply be whether the people there can be happy. As the system did allow participation by conquered peoples, trying to encourage it and improve conditions instead of destroying it wasn't morally wrong.
Participation to an extent, not equality, and that's what's important. Suzaku's belief fundamentally denies freedom except as an ideal. He wants people not to resist having their basic freedoms trampled in the hopes that the obviously unwilling government might one day restore them.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for Suzaku's stance being an 'excuse' to enact his death wish, this isn't true. Suzaku's death wish is in addition to his desire to help the Japanese people. And once he met Euphie, he began to abandon the self-punishment entirely. You can level the same illegitimacy of motivation at Kallen, who was fighting Britannia at the start of the series only to lash out for the death of her brother (she had no 'hope' for achieving anything). Only in meeting Zero did her destructive impulse begin to turn into a positive one (hope for actually liberating Japan). In fact, by the time Suzaku lost Euphie, he had lost any desire for self-punishment, instead focusing almost entirely (aside from helping the people his way) on getting revenge on Zero. Suzaku's deathwish doesn't even factor again until after he blows up Tokyo.
As pointed out, it is not in addition, it is the whole point, and Turn 8 proved that without a doubt. His death wish factors in and he monologues about it in Turn 8, so to claim otherwise is blatant ignorance of the character's self-admitted mindset. Suzaku desires to be punished, and his ideals are an excuse to be punished the way he wants. He doesn't care about his cause, certainly not enough to make it a priority. When he met Euphie he was steered off that track, true, but he went right back on it when she died. She was a crutch, and once that crutch was gone he fell.

Kallen is different, even if she doesn't have hope, and even if she expects death, she is not actively trying to get herself killed. Suzaku does. This is the difference between them. Suzaku treats his cause as a means to die. Kallen accepts that death is the likely outcome of her cause but isn't trying to die.
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Old 2009-11-18, 18:47   Link #22104
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To me Shirley and to an extent the student council (except for Nina) all represented the positive side of Britannia. The only thing Shirley can be condemned for is wounding Villetta and not finishing her off for good.

You can't say she's a bad person because she happened to be Britannian and didn't take Kallen's stance. Shirley had no reason to lash out at society in a childish fit, and she showed she was capable for forgiveness. Kallen would've never forgiven the guy who killed her brother. She chooses to kill people who had nothing to do with her brother's death just because they're Britannians, and never mind that whoever off'd Naoto was just doing his duty. Terrorism is dangerous business, perhaps Naoto should've chosen a different career path?
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Old 2009-11-18, 18:49   Link #22105
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The difference is that Britannian soldiers did it in cold blood.

The death of Shirley's dad was an accident.
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:17   Link #22106
bladeofdarkness
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would you please stop with the pretense that britannia WASNT evil empire incarnate
you keep trying to make something grey when its as black as the ace of spades

season 1 STARTS with britannia massacring an entire ghetto because the people living in it had the poor sense to live somewhere that was considered "the wrong place"
it follows with several other massacres during the season, with one being used mearly as an excuse to draw zero in and the other having absolutely no reason other then euphie saying "kill them all"
and season 2 begins with the elevens being treated even WORSE then they did in season 1
with elevens being forced to kill one another for the amusment of britannian crowds and being treated like merchandise or forced into prostitution because they have no rights at all
between shooting unarmed women and children and BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE britannia is portrayed as utterly evil in this setting
there is not "just doing their duty", since they work for a complete monster and carry out his atrocities
and disturbingly often, they do so with a smile on their faces

the guy who runs the empire basiclly says that anyone who is weak should be considered as inferior and treated as such
these are not isolated cases, this is the way the empire is ran

you're repeated attempts to paint the japanese liberation movment as somehow on the same level as britannia by referring to them as terrorists is a joke
naoto could be eating babies and would still be marginally better then the way britannia is portrayed
its simply too fucked up to be viewed as anything but NAZI Germany on steroids

this is NOT grey and grey morality and the black knights are NEVER treated as somehow wrong or misguided in their fight against britannia's tyrany
you're just trying to paint britannia as symapthtic because it lends credence to the notion that it could be redeemed from within and that suzaku is not COMPLETELY deluded in that thought
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:19   Link #22107
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
To me Shirley and to an extent the student council (except for Nina) all represented the positive side of Britannia. The only thing Shirley can be condemned for is wounding Villetta and not finishing her off for good.

You can't say she's a bad person because she happened to be Britannian and didn't take Kallen's stance. Shirley had no reason to lash out at society in a childish fit, and she showed she was capable for forgiveness. Kallen would've never forgiven the guy who killed her brother. She chooses to kill people who had nothing to do with her brother's death just because they're Britannians, and never mind that whoever off'd Naoto was just doing his duty. Terrorism is dangerous business, perhaps Naoto should've chosen a different career path?
Getting the focus back on Kallen, the reason she fought against Britannia was because it wasn't just some soldier that killed her brother, it was the whole Britannian system. I believe Kallen fought fought Britannia partly because she knew Britannia was terrible and partly because she wanted to honor her brother's death.

And I know you have your own peculiar beliefs when it comes to this, but as far as Naoto goes, he was just doing what hundreds of other Japanese people were doing. He was fighting an oppressive government that was destroying the lives of the Japanese people. You may as well condemn the entire BK and JLF.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The difference is that Britannian soldiers did it in cold blood.

The death of Shirley's dad was an accident.
Well not to mention that Naoto was a soldier who was willing to die and Shirley's dad was an innocent civilian.

For the record though, I don't suffer any delusions that the Black Knights were the absolutely "good" side in all this. They killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people, both soldiers and civilians, and enacted on or at least went along with many unethical practices. But as bad as they were, they were nothing compared to Britannia. So you see, they're not good, they're just the lesser of two evils. It's the same for most, if not all, wars.
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:21   Link #22108
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by morbosfist View Post
I'll agree on the first part. She's outside the conflict, just a bystander. Shirley accepting Suzaku in not that big a deal, since Ashford is always shown to be fairly progressive (or perhaps accepting would be closer) as far as it comes to other cultures.

Participation to an extent, not equality, and that's what's important. Suzaku's belief fundamentally denies freedom except as an ideal. He wants people not to resist having their basic freedoms trampled in the hopes that the obviously unwilling government might one day restore them.

As pointed out, it is not in addition, it is the whole point, and Turn 8 proved that without a doubt. His death wish factors in and he monologues about it in Turn 8, so to claim otherwise is blatant ignorance of the character's self-admitted mindset. Suzaku desires to be punished, and his ideals are an excuse to be punished the way he wants. He doesn't care about his cause, certainly not enough to make it a priority. When he met Euphie he was steered off that track, true, but he went right back on it when she died. She was a crutch, and once that crutch was gone he fell.

Kallen is different, even if she doesn't have hope, and even if she expects death, she is not actively trying to get herself killed. Suzaku does. This is the difference between them. Suzaku treats his cause as a means to die. Kallen accepts that death is the likely outcome of her cause but isn't trying to die.
Trying to hurt yourself out of regret, and trying to hurt others out of revenge, are equally meaningless and destructive desires. Kallen and Suzaku are comparable on that level. Just as Zero brought hope to Kallen that liberating Japan was actually possible, Euphie gave Suzaku hope for Britannian reform. In the SAZ, Japanese and Britannians are equal, so to say that Suzaku's ideal denies 'freedom' is inaccurate.

As for the effect of Euphie being a temporary crutch and Suzaku falling back into his death wish, I've said before I don't really think so. Suzaku speaks about his death wish in Turn 8 in past tense; as he tells Anya, there was somebody who understood him once, and that is enough for him. Throughout R2, Suzaku pursues his goals with a noticeably lowered degree of restraint than in S1--part of the reason for that is because he no longer feels that he is more unworthy or detestable than his enemies. In R2, who does Suzaku hate more--himself, or Zero? It's Zero obviously, and that means that for most of the season it is Zero Suzaku is trying to destroy, not himself.
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:28   Link #22109
bladeofdarkness
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the main difference between kallen and suzaku is that by season 2 kallen still remembers who she is fighting for
japan
you are right in saying that suzaku hates zero, and his hate has grown to such an extent that he loses sight on his original goal of making japan a better place
did you see the hell hole that japan became during the time skip
considering that he claims he wants to help the japanese, you'd figure suzaku's newly gained position would be better used in japan trying to PREVENT this senseless crualty and mistreatment of his people

but instead, he's off in the EU conquering other nations, and only returns to japan once zero shows up
he has lost touch with who he was fighting for in the first place
he's not trying to help japan, he is trying to hurt zero, at any cost
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Old 2009-11-18, 19:53   Link #22110
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Trying to hurt yourself out of regret, and trying to hurt others out of revenge, are equally meaningless and destructive desires. Kallen and Suzaku are comparable on that level. Just as Zero brought hope to Kallen that liberating Japan was actually possible, Euphie gave Suzaku hope for Britannian reform. In the SAZ, Japanese and Britannians are equal, so to say that Suzaku's ideal denies 'freedom' is inaccurate.
Yet there are productive and counterproductive ways to apply either aim. Kallen hurting others out of revenge is constructive because she's doing it to help free her people. She actually recognizes the problem and acts to correct it. Even if she does die in the course of her actions, she is not dying just to die, but dying fighting to the last breath for freedom. She also knows when retreat is appropriate, a skill Suzaku completely lacks.

Suzaku's self-destructive attitude is not only intentionally harmful to himself, but harmful to his own people because of how he's chosen to act upon it. He supports the people that caused the problem, compounds it by being complicit in their actions with absolutely no plan (at first, and even later on he practically redefines short-sighted), and finally would throw it all away on a whim if given the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
As for the effect of Euphie being a temporary crutch and Suzaku falling back into his death wish, I've said before I don't really think so. Suzaku speaks about his death wish in Turn 8 in past tense; as he tells Anya, there was somebody who understood him once, and that is enough for him. Throughout R2, Suzaku pursues his goals with a noticeably lowered degree of restraint than in S1--part of the reason for that is because he no longer feels that he is more unworthy or detestable than his enemies. In R2, who does Suzaku hate more--himself, or Zero? It's Zero obviously, and that means that for most of the season Suzaku it is Zero Suzaku is trying to destroy, not himself.
Yet in the present, when he's being stabbed and could have acted on it, he wasn't going to. Saying he couldn't have dodged is ridiculous. That man was way back, and Suzaku's dodged faster things without Geass. He speaks in the past tense because he's speaking of the moment when he was cursed. He also complains about this curse later on, and not because it affects his work (it doesn't, just his suicidal behavior). Finally, when Kallen is beating him eight ways from Sunday in Turn 18, rather than retreat when carrying a nuke like a sane person, he does nothing but further provoke her. Then he lets his guard down to die, and calls it atonement. This is not the attitude of someone who has given up on his death wish.

Much of this is off-topic, it occurs to me.
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Old 2009-11-18, 21:05   Link #22111
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
would you please stop with the pretense that britannia WASNT evil empire incarnate
you keep trying to make something grey when its as black as the ace of spades

season 1 STARTS with britannia massacring an entire ghetto because the people living in it had the poor sense to live somewhere that was considered "the wrong place"
it follows with several other massacres during the season, with one being used mearly as an excuse to draw zero in and the other having absolutely no reason other then euphie saying "kill them all"
and season 2 begins with the elevens being treated even WORSE then they did in season 1
with elevens being forced to kill one another for the amusment of britannian crowds and being treated like merchandise or forced into prostitution because they have no rights at all
between shooting unarmed women and children and BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE britannia is portrayed as utterly evil in this setting
there is not "just doing their duty", since they work for a complete monster and carry out his atrocities
and disturbingly often, they do so with a smile on their faces

the guy who runs the empire basiclly says that anyone who is weak should be considered as inferior and treated as such
these are not isolated cases, this is the way the empire is ran

you're repeated attempts to paint the japanese liberation movment as somehow on the same level as britannia by referring to them as terrorists is a joke
naoto could be eating babies and would still be marginally better then the way britannia is portrayed
its simply too fucked up to be viewed as anything but NAZI Germany on steroids

this is NOT grey and grey morality and the black knights are NEVER treated as somehow wrong or misguided in their fight against britannia's tyrany
you're just trying to paint britannia as symapthtic because it lends credence to the notion that it could be redeemed from within and that suzaku is not COMPLETELY deluded in that thought
The Empire was bad but it's not without any hope left. Britania was nowhere near the level of Nazi Germany or else the Japanese would've been extinct the year after the invasion.In fact, there're people who care enough about the Areas and the Numbers to act on it and were killed for that( most of the people on Rolo list).There're also civilians who doesn't have a choice, children who was taught to look down on Numbers from birth...They didn't deserve to die so that someone can have their vengeance but millions of these people would have to die because it's decided that their country must be destroy.


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the main difference between kallen and suzaku is that by season 2 kallen still remembers who she is fighting for
japan
Really? I can remember most people here claiming that she'd follow Lelouch had he asked her to,so it is questionable whether she fights for Japan or for herself.
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Old 2009-11-19, 00:49   Link #22112
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Really? I can remember most people here claiming that she'd follow Lelouch had he asked her to,so it is questionable whether she fights for Japan or for herself.
Choosing to side with him would not invalidate her cause, especially when he his goal was to make the country free.
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Old 2009-11-19, 02:24   Link #22113
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To me Shirley and to an extent the student council (except for Nina) all represented the positive side of Britannia. The only thing Shirley can be condemned for is wounding Villetta and not finishing her off for good.

You can't say she's a bad person because she happened to be Britannian and didn't take Kallen's stance. Shirley had no reason to lash out at society in a childish fit, and she showed she was capable for forgiveness. Kallen would've never forgiven the guy who killed her brother. She chooses to kill people who had nothing to do with her brother's death just because they're Britannians, and never mind that whoever off'd Naoto was just doing his duty. Terrorism is dangerous business, perhaps Naoto should've chosen a different career path?
There is no such thing as a "positive" side of Britannia. You should realize that the people you are referring to are not much older than 16 or 17. Whatever their mindset was, it could change as they grow older. And plus, they are what, 6 people out of a whole damn society? A small prickle of light shrouded in complete darkness won't do much.

And I don't think you understand the matter here. Kallen ADORED her brother. She looked up to him, he was the representation of what she wants to become. Would you forgive the person who killed him? And please, Britannian rule of Japan and any of her other colonies and terrorism are not much different in terms of brutality. The only difference was that at least the Japanese terrorists aimed for military targets, not kill civilians in cold blood because they felt like it. And Kallen's hate for Brittania extends far more than simply because of Naoto. Naoto may have influenced her, but Kallen had her own reasons. Reasons that were never truly explored within the boundaries of the show.
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Old 2009-11-19, 02:30   Link #22114
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The Empire was bad but it's not without any hope left. Britania was nowhere near the level of Nazi Germany or else the Japanese would've been extinct the year after the invasion.In fact, there're people who care enough about the Areas and the Numbers to act on it and were killed for that( most of the people on Rolo list).There're also civilians who doesn't have a choice, children who was taught to look down on Numbers from birth...They didn't deserve to die so that someone can have their vengeance but millions of these people would have to die because it's decided that their country must be destroy.




Really? I can remember most people here claiming that she'd follow Lelouch had he asked her to,so it is questionable whether she fights for Japan or for herself.
You bring up some good points. As for who Kallen is fighting for I'd have to say she's doing it for herself. Japan is just an excuse for her lashing out at Britannia and her father. She didn't seem too fond of him despite the guy giving her everything, and treating her pretty well. She's living proof that not all Britannians are evil, or maybe she thought the guy just took advantage of her mother. However, if that were the case he wouldn't have taken her in and spent the time to hide the fact she was half-eleven.
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Old 2009-11-19, 03:48   Link #22115
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Originally Posted by DN24 View Post
The Empire was bad but it's not without any hope left. Britania was nowhere near the level of Nazi Germany or else the Japanese would've been extinct the year after the invasion.In fact, there're people who care enough about the Areas and the Numbers to act on it and were killed for that( most of the people on Rolo list).There're also civilians who doesn't have a choice, children who was taught to look down on Numbers from birth...They didn't deserve to die so that someone can have their vengeance but millions of these people would have to die because it's decided that their country must be destroy.
comparing britannia to nazi germany is not only fitting
its praticularly requested (given the "all hail britannia" slogan)
and it works wonderfully once you realize that in the frame of the analogy, the japanese are not the jews
other then hitler's jewish fetish, Germany was mean to a lot of other people as well, and with that in mind, japan is much better if being compared to Russia
the perception of Japanese in the britannian eye is basically "inferior people, fit only to be slaves, who's lands should be taken from them because the master race needs them for its own goals."
which is practicly the same way the NAZI's viewed the russins

there is also the issue of britannia being equal parts obedience to the ruler and and an indoctrinated belief of national supremacy, and that all other nations and people are inferiors
again, just like nazi germany
which is a pretty good explanation on why britannian soldiers seem to approach the matter of massacring civilians with the same glee that you'd expect from a child at christmas morning
after all, they get to show their loyalty to their ruler, AND stomp the inferior lesser people at the same time

as for the people who "people who care enough about the Areas and the Numbers to act on it and were killed for that"
the fact that britannia was actively killing off anyone who attempted to aid the numbers only hammers home the point that it is utterly fucked up
and the "children who learned from birth to look down on the numbers" should get a wake up call about that
preferably in the form of the numbers kicking their asses (which was, ironiclly, exactly what the black knights were doing)

and you'll forgive me if i find the notion of saying "millions of britannians would die because their country needed to be destroyed" laughable when you remember that they did the same for the japanese
only without the japanese doing the same to them to begin with
its almost poetic justice in that its basiclly a twisted application of the golden rule
"treat others as you would wish for them to treat you"
we see how britannia treats others

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Really? I can remember most people here claiming that she'd follow Lelouch had he asked her to,so it is questionable whether she fights for Japan or for herself.
when lelouch took over britannia, he was no longer continuing its policy of racism and imperialism, but had adopted a different goal that would serve to benefit the entire world (japan included)
while i find his new goal similarly repulsive for different reasons, the lines were not really the same lines (unless you bought into his act that made it SEEM as if they were)
under those conditions, siding with lelouch, while knowing what shnizel was planing to do, would ironiclly STILL count as fighting for japan, because it averts a greater threat to it

and kallen hardly fights for herself
she could enjoy a life of riches and comfort if she wanted to, but she gives those things up because she believes in fighting against the oppression of her people who in all likely hood would never thank her for it
that she falls in love with lelouch along the way does not change that
and in fact, the fact that she fought against him in the final battle is alone proof of that (you dont cry over killing someone who you WANT to kill)
when lelouch became japan's enemy, kallen fought him just as hard as she fought against the old regime

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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
You bring up some good points. As for who Kallen is fighting for I'd have to say she's doing it for herself. Japan is just an excuse for her lashing out at Britannia and her father. She didn't seem too fond of him despite the guy giving her everything, and treating her pretty well. She's living proof that not all Britannians are evil, or maybe she thought the guy just took advantage of her mother. However, if that were the case he wouldn't have taken her in and spent the time to hide the fact she was half-eleven.
and you base this on... what exactly
her father doesnt know she's a terrorist, and she admits she has no problems with him personally
she spends a fair amount of time mistakingly hating her real mom so there is no use in avenging her
and she out right forbids the use of a weapon that would cause MASSIVE civilian deaths, so she's not out to kill as many britannians as possible
she makes her points VERY clear in the phone call she has with lelouch during ep 4 of season 1
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Old 2009-11-19, 12:55   Link #22116
geewhiz
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
when lelouch took over britannia, he was no longer continuing its policy of racism and imperialism, but had adopted a different goal that would serve to benefit the entire world (japan included)
while i find his new goal similarly repulsive for different reasons, the lines were not really the same lines (unless you bought into his act that made it SEEM as if they were)
under those conditions, siding with lelouch, while knowing what shnizel was planing to do, would ironiclly STILL count as fighting for japan, because it averts a greater threat to it
Wow, so while you're contending "repulsion" for the zero requiem, you admit that a part of what Lelouch is doing is good in some respects.

Hell hasn't frozen over, but someone should check the thermostat...
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Old 2009-11-19, 13:59   Link #22117
Revolutionist
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Comparing Britannia to Nazi Germany is borderline idiotic. You have to forgive my bluntness but that's just going overboard. We're talking about an anime empire that's on even real and one of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th centry.


And btw, Britannia never established anything such as a master race or any of that nonsense so I don't know where you're getting it from. Master NATIONALITY sure, but not race. As you can clearly see in the show there are Britannians of every race, i.e Black King, mexican knight KIA in Narita etc. Now, while Nazi germany did use the concept of a master race its main targets were jews and communists, who were the main enemies of Fascism. There were SS divisions composed of Italians, Romanians, Spaniards and even Arabs and Balkan muslims.
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Old 2009-11-19, 14:11   Link #22118
Bonzo
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Like Britannia, nazi has the same typology of ideas, they're the must and the other just inferior people.
Then some exalted leader evidence it always and some people with the same exalted ideals and a minor grade use it too...

If you look, there were evil nazi and good nazi, the evil were the minor percentage, but everyone with a important position and influence, same for britannia noble class.

And about the racism, is it present too, look characters like Jeremiah (on R1), the kor Luciano, Alicia lohmeyer, or the Villetta primordial thought when she shot Ougi, because she's disgusted about the fact she lived together and made love with him.
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Old 2009-11-19, 14:12   Link #22119
Nobodyman9
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Comparing Britannia to Nazi Germany is borderline idiotic. You have to forgive my bluntness but that's just going overboard. We're talking about an anime empire that's on even real and one of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th centry.


And btw, Britannia never established anything such as a master race or any of that nonsense so I don't know where you're getting it from. Master NATIONALITY sure, but not race. As you can clearly see in the show there are Britannians of every race, i.e Black King, mexican knight KIA in Narita etc. Now, while Nazi germany did use the concept of a master race its main targets were jews and communists, who were the main enemies of Fascism. There were SS divisions composed of Italians, Romanians, Spaniards and even Arabs and Balkan muslims.
Here's a fun idea: let's take this to the generic discussion thread (or some other appropriate thread) why don't we?
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Old 2009-11-19, 17:24   Link #22120
bladeofdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geewhiz View Post
Wow, so while you're contending "repulsion" for the zero requiem, you admit that a part of what Lelouch is doing is good in some respects.

Hell hasn't frozen over, but someone should check the thermostat...
my repulsion of zero requiem stems from the fact that LELOUCH's goals were fucked up in nature, and his utopia justifies the means mindframe is just plain wrong
it takes lelouch to a level not unlike that of shnizel and charles were he views himself as better suited to decide whats best for humanity and it doesnt matter how much of it he murders along the way
which is NOT what he was like before it

but while lelouch's goals and mind frame is wrong, the end result would have benefited japan
he is not out to enslave it as a long term concept
the end result would ensure its freedom for a long time
which is why kallen joining him would still count as working for japan
even if it would also implicate her in his MASSIVELY fucked up sins
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