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Old 2010-03-30, 11:11   Link #22901
Paladinoras
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
Happy Belated Bday Kallen, sorry I missed it...been busy. *weeps*
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:10   Link #22902
SonOfHeaven
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa
This isn't anything new but...

Today, I was viewing some Lelouch and Kallen stuff on youtube. You know Kallen gets alot of hatred for deciding to leave Lelouch(Saying stuff like Lelouch needed Kallen and Kallen betrayed him) after he lied about her being an pawn and their scene at turn 22. For myself, I respect Kallen decision. She expressed herself clearly in turns 19, 22, also to herself in turn 21. Kallen's love is always denied.

If I were to dislike someone's decision it would be Lelouch. Then again it was the right thing to do. Since we know why he did that.
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:32   Link #22903
Arbitres
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It's their choice to hate her for doing what she did. I simply have to say this: What she did was walk away because she believed she was betrayed. Lelouch did it to save her, or he did it to simply die alone. A mixture of both, I think.


Kallen felt horrible about leaving his side, if they didn't notice. He was expecting to die -- his last words were meant to keep her going, "Live on."

They can hate her all they want, though they should avoid me by that effect... and afew others too.

Kallen showed her affection and resolve during 21 and 22. She would stop Lelouch, the one that saved her. She would live on to stop him, even if it ended in both of them dying. She genuinely loved him, and she was intent on stopping him. If the circumstances were different... She might have joined with him, but the way it played out was (probably?) hurtful for both of them.

I spam stuff about karma and free will ALL the time, but I won't stand for illogical/irrational flame to Kallen.


...This is probably going to get me negative repped, but what the hell -- if it's for Kallen, I can put up with it: C.C. left Lelouch's side more then Kallen ever did.

(readies self for impact.)
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Old 2010-03-31, 18:54   Link #22904
Nogitsune
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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I don't see what this has to do with C.C. (who is a completely different character with a completely different and fairly unique history), but getting fooled by Lelouch is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. Well, the second time around and in Nunnally's case it threw me off a bit, but... *shrugs*

Lelouch is just that good.
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Old 2010-03-31, 19:55   Link #22905
Arbitres
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It was a simple statement. I'm comparing Kallen to C.C. by that, from what SonOfHeaven said, they flamed her because she 'left his side'. Well, C.C. has to be under heavy fire if so. (..Sorry, pun.)

...That's all. Besides, Code Geass is about political and betrayal, I wouldn't see why they would hate someone that did the least amount of betraying. (Running away can be considered a betrayal, and leaving someone's side can be considered a betrayal. Feeling betrayed is not a betrayal.)

....Should I be quiet?
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Old 2010-04-01, 04:52   Link #22906
Betteroffer
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From my interpretation, Kallen leaves Lelouch four times, but in truth I only count two of them:

1. On Kamine during Stage 25/Turn 2 flashback.
2. Turn 7 (NOT saying she should have "comforted" him, but that she shouldn't have bolted on him. I'd be fine with her smacking him around a bit more though).
3. Turn 19, but we ALL know why this one doesn't count.
4. Turn 22, same as above.

C.C. leaves Lelouch 3 times, but I only count two of them.

1. Stage 15, to protect him from Mao, so it doesn't count
2. Turn 15 when she goes to Charles. It admittedly might have been to save Lelouch in the immediate sense, but it was still to achieve her own goal, and that would have brought about The End Of The World As We Know It, so the motive is rather suspect.
3. Turn 15 again when she seals her Code.
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Old 2010-04-01, 05:02   Link #22907
bladeofdarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 30
its not about who leave who more
its about motives
at every turn that Kallen leaves Lelouch is because Lelouch causes her to do so

season 1 end, its the revelation that zero has been using her and her people for his own goals

in turn 7, she leaves when he gives her the impression that he's beyond her help, and that he doesn't want to BE helped (she tried to help, and he tries to exploit her, she leaves, and he's not following)
the first thing she does after that is contemplate taking on the mantle of zero herself to continue the fight in his place - she's got more pressing things to take care of then babysitting him, especially after what he tried to pull

turns 19 and 22 are self-explanatory
on both occasions he does his best to push her away AFTER she makes it clear she'd rather join him in death.
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Old 2010-04-01, 05:55   Link #22908
Betteroffer
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Despite what he says on Kamine, he is still fighting to free Japan, and he does at least claim that he will see it done. He is revealled as being deceptive yes, but nothing is shown to remotely imply to Kallen that he could be any worse than Britannia, given the SAZ massacre.

For Turn 7, I more got the impression that it was just too painful for her to see Zero in such a broken state. Saying he didn't want help implies that what he did was an effort to push her away on some level, and I think he was too messed up to care at that point.

As well, I didn't really get the sense that she was thinking of becoming Zero herself, so much as wondering where to go from there without him, though I see where you're coming from, given what C.C. says upon entering. Regardless of how Lelouch acted it was still blatantly obvious that the Japanese were SOL without him, as Tohdoh and Ohgi both admitted to everyone.
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Old 2010-04-01, 06:25   Link #22909
bladeofdarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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before suzaku interrupts them, she tells C.C "but someone has to"
given what she's doing at the time, and what C.C tells her regarding it, it implies that she's thinking of taking the mask herself
its clear that she's out of her league mind you, but she's still considering it
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Old 2010-04-01, 08:07   Link #22910
Arbitres
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"It's about motives"

Excellently put, Blade. Though I feel incredibly stupid for bringing up this discussion when you and betteroffer point out the finer(s).

Kamine was a disaster -- Nunnally was captured, and Lelouch basically had his 'reason for living abducted' as a result. He grew detached in those few moments C.C. told him the revelation, Orange-kun probably increased his aggrevation proportional to how many spin attacks the Siegfried did on the Gawain (...I counted three.)

On Kamine: He was being single-minded, and Kallen was on the recieving end of it, along with Suzaku. But he was genuine to his words.

Episode 7: It was painful for her to see the one she admired in a broken state, yes. But she also considered about becoming Zero. (In the dubs, it becomes a little more obvious Kallen is thinking of being Zero.)

While it's clear she wouldn't be anywhere near Lelouch's level of being Zero, she would atleast try to if that was the case. Hell -- she might have actually done it if our dear Knight of Seven didn't show up out of nowhere with Portmans and a shitload of ordnance.


It's about motivations, yes. But also the individual in general. Motivation is heavily infleunced by the individual... So I have to guess C.C. was more tolerant or more reading-between-the-lines when it involved Lelouch. Kallen followed Zero, Kallen really disliked Lelouch -- resulting in a conflicting aftershock.

I would ultimately have to agree Kallen 'betrayed' Lelouch more then C.C., although sometimes those betrayals were more of a means to an end. That goes for C.C. and Lelouch. (C.C. recording the conversation between her and Mao in hopes of Lelouch finding out/doing something. While Lelouch would be on the basic level his 'Live on' scene to Kallen.)

I hope this doesn't turn into a shipwar. Though that'd be partially my fault, wouldn't it?
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Old 2010-04-01, 08:22   Link #22911
Nogitsune
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A "shipwar"? Does this forum even have any avid Cluclu shippers left?

Anyway.
C.C.'s past makes her one "great betrayal" easily forgivable for me. She has craved death for so long that a mere year with Lelouch should pale in comparison - and still it's Lelouch she choses in the end.
Kallen has her own reasons, but someone who blames her yet not C.C. doesn't necessarily have to be a hypocrite.

Hm, and I wouldn't call C.C. going to Mao to keep Lelouch save a "betrayal", but... a matter of definition, I suppose?
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Old 2010-04-01, 08:39   Link #22912
Lolipopo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
A "shipwar"? Does this forum even have any avid Cluclu shippers left?

Anyway.
C.C.'s past makes her one "great betrayal" easily forgivable for me. She has craved death for so long that a mere year with Lelouch should pale in comparison - and still it's Lelouch she choses in the end.
Kallen has her own reasons, but someone who blames her yet not C.C. doesn't necessarily have to be a hypocrite.

Hm, and I wouldn't call C.C. going to Mao to keep Lelouch save a "betrayal", but... a matter of definition, I suppose?
No. We killed them all.
(Why does the whole Kalulu/CluClu reminds me of Cloti/Cleris in FF7 ? XD)

Anyway I was going to say it's pretty dumb counting how many times this one bretrayed Lulu and who is the worst traitor but I have to say that the bolded part is wrong to me.
For me, it's definitely hypocrisy. C.C. was manipulating him all along and she could have prevent him from plmenty of damages. Moreover she left him when he needed help the most (after the whole death of Shirley she choose to seal her code, which is totally selfish.)

To blame Kallen for leaving Lelouch toward the end (cause that's essentially why people are blaming her) when we all know it was Lelouch's doing, and yet not recognizing that C.C. had been a selfish traitor at times, is pure bias and hypocrisy. Cause it doesn't even make sense blaming a girl who was manipulated by the very guy and not blaming the girl who was manupalting the guy.

Now, on a subjective note, I don't blame any of them. I like C.C. for being this selfish soul, and I like Kallen for being this impulsive girl.
The only problem I have with the two of them is Kallen leaving Lelouch at Kaminejima and C.C. giving up on Mao, leading the poor boy to turn batshit insane.

Aside from that, they simply acted like they were supposed to. So the people who are blaming one and not the other are simply acting through bias. Or they have a flawed sense of logic.
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Old 2010-04-01, 08:57   Link #22913
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Lolipopo View Post
To blame Kallen for leaving Lelouch toward the end (cause that's essentially why people are blaming her) when we all know it was Lelouch's doing, and yet not recognizing that C.C. had been a selfish traitor at times, is pure bias and hypocrisy. Cause it doesn't even make sense blaming a girl who was manipulated by the very guy and not blaming the girl who was manupalting the guy.
Of course it makes sense, from a certain point of view, and minus the "not recognize" part.
For example, I could say, "well, it's no wonder C.C. turned out like that, with her having lived for centuries and all; but Kallen really should have known better". This is not how I see it, but I believe it's a valid opinion.
Now, if someone says, "I dislike Kallen because and only because she betrayed Lelouch" then I agree - they should also dislike C.C. But if that person instead says, "I dislike Kallen for not seeing through Lelouch and therefore betraying him", then it's not hypocrisy, because there is indeed a difference between the two. Lelouch had already fooled Kallen once, and then he returned her kiss. Personally, I believe "Lelouch is just that good" sums it up best, but I can see how it might annoy some people. C.C. is a very different character, and you expect her to be selfish under certain circumstances, while Kallen had any reason to try and figure out what was going on.

But... is this really worth discussing? We agree that C.C. and Kallen are both awesome characters who had their reasons, and I think that's what counts.
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Old 2010-04-01, 09:49   Link #22914
Arbitres
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I apparently missed the killing fields, so I wouldn't know about the shipwars that happened. But regardless, I think we can safely say this one has ended on a fair note.

"Individually speaking, betrayal was part of their characters. Along with Lelouch's." being the most politically correct without strewning it out.

Kallen and C.C. are awesome characters, I can readily agree with this. Still, people go by their own dance and song. They don't try tripping me, I don't try tripping them. Metaphor, Translation: Individually people like characters for different reasons. I can't say what is wrong for a character and what isn't without sounding arrogant or pushy in the process

Kallen: Impulsive, Tomboy, compassionate, best Pilot in the series. Redhair, drop-dead gorgeous
C.C.: Immortal witch, sarcasm and cynicalism at it's best. Intelligent, beautiful.

That's how it works on my end. I really can't say anymore other then being redundant (or about this discussion in general.)
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Old 2010-04-02, 00:55   Link #22915
Revolutionist
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Sorry but Kallen screwed up in Kamine island. She simply watched Suzaku confront and arrest Lelouch, then ran away. That is inexcusable.

She was shaken by the relevation, sure, but she made no attempts to prevent that either. I mean, Suzaku had his back towards her, and she could've easily told him to put down his gun, but no instead she sits there and says "no wait!" when Suzaku decides to shoot him. She had a gun in her hands FFS, not to mention that Suzaku had tried to execute her just a couple of hours earlier. She shouldn't have any "emotional" attachment to him at point, so protecting Zero should've been a no brainer.

According to R2, she kind of gets over the initial shock of Lelouch being Zero and tries to help him, after Suzaku has disarmed him and has got him pinned down, then is easily swept aside by Suzaku's comment....
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Old 2010-04-06, 06:59   Link #22916
Kid Ying
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Sorry but Kallen screwed up in Kamine island. She simply watched Suzaku confront and arrest Lelouch, then ran away. That is inexcusable.

She was shaken by the relevation, sure, but she made no attempts to prevent that either. I mean, Suzaku had his back towards her, and she could've easily told him to put down his gun, but no instead she sits there and says "no wait!" when Suzaku decides to shoot him. She had a gun in her hands FFS, not to mention that Suzaku had tried to execute her just a couple of hours earlier. She shouldn't have any "emotional" attachment to him at point, so protecting Zero should've been a no brainer.

According to R2, she kind of gets over the initial shock of Lelouch being Zero and tries to help him, after Suzaku has disarmed him and has got him pinned down, then is easily swept aside by Suzaku's comment....
I don't know... I mean, it's not like Kallen was heartless, the revelation of Lelouch was a big shock for her. It took some time for her to accept that even after the time skip, so, by that time she just didn't knew what to do...

I don't think she screwed... Well, to be honest, i think, but at least there was a reason and stuff..
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Old 2010-04-06, 09:08   Link #22917
Sanger Zonvolt
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Sorry but Kallen screwed up in Kamine island. She simply watched Suzaku confront and arrest Lelouch, then ran away. That is inexcusable.

She was shaken by the relevation, sure, but she made no attempts to prevent that either. I mean, Suzaku had his back towards her, and she could've easily told him to put down his gun, but no instead she sits there and says "no wait!" when Suzaku decides to shoot him. She had a gun in her hands FFS, not to mention that Suzaku had tried to execute her just a couple of hours earlier. She shouldn't have any "emotional" attachment to him at point, so protecting Zero should've been a no brainer.

According to R2, she kind of gets over the initial shock of Lelouch being Zero and tries to help him, after Suzaku has disarmed him and has got him pinned down, then is easily swept aside by Suzaku's comment....
I would have to agree with this, though knowing Suzaku, he would of somehow disarmed her probly.
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Old 2010-04-06, 10:12   Link #22918
Lolipopo
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Originally Posted by Kid Ying View Post
I don't know... I mean, it's not like Kallen was heartless, the revelation of Lelouch was a big shock for her. It took some time for her to accept that even after the time skip, so, by that time she just didn't knew what to do...

I don't think she screwed... Well, to be honest, i think, but at least there was a reason and stuff..
You know, some people are amazing and have a perfect control over their feelings. Those are the same people who thank Kallen was dumb both in Stage 25 and in Turn 19.

You have this girl who discovers her idol was a man she despised at school, that her ideol has been using people and using somr kind of screwed up power to create some massacre, and despite this, this girl should still stand by this man side no matter what.

Kallen was shocked and yet, people are hoping she might be able to act like a person whose got her fullsense.
LOL. It wasn't a point of emotional attachment to Suzaku. WTH does this idea come from ? It is all about Lelouch, Zero and her, who feels like having killed people because she was manipulated. Suzaku has nothing to do with that, he is just using the right words, and what he and she, thinks is the truth.

This is the moment where I laugh.
And this is the moment when you can notice that everything is fine to blame Kallen. Cause she would have been blamed even if she had pick the opposite choice.
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Old 2010-04-06, 12:24   Link #22919
Betteroffer
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I still don't think she deserves a free pass for this just like Lelouch doesn't deserve a free pass for abandoning his army for Nunally.

Granted Kallen suddenly learns that someone she doesn't like is Zero, but I didn't get the sense she hated Lelouch, just that she was disappointed in him after what he said in Stage 9.

He does dismiss her concerns, but he also claims that Japan will be freed because of him.

Keep in mind this is all in the wake of Euphemia seemingly going ax-crazy and murdering civilians, with Lelouch killing her in "retaliation." Suzaku's little rant at the start of the scene is nowhere near enough for anyone not aware of Geass to understand what it is, let alone that it was Lelouch's fault that Euphemia did what she did.

As well, nothing is said about Lelouch being a prince, so she can't assume he created Zero as a means to grab power, at least not any more so than the next person.

I'm not saying she should accept all of this obediently by any means, but regardless of what was said in the cave, it was still blatantly obvious that the Japanese people needed Zero and whatever he was revealled to be here was still the lesser of two evils by leagues.
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Old 2010-04-06, 12:43   Link #22920
Arbitres
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Neither of them deserve a free pass. Because they both were being irrational. Excuse me, but does that make them... distasteful? No, only their actions were. Disliking an individual for a single action is possible, but otherwise incredibly meaningless.

Excuse me for being metaphorical, but Kallen is the right hand of Zero -- Zero himself being morally grey. Therefore Kallen is morally grey or bordering on it. What and how the character reacts can be thought up rationally and through logistics as much as you wish. But it was obviously on the moment and a irrational choice, the same goes for Lelouch abandoning his army.

Kallen is as much as fault as Lelouch or Suzaku, yes. This itself can be agreed on by some degree. But applying logic to a scene that was chaotic for the character's minds is fruitless.

Are we done? I think this was brought up before... Then again, I prefer it when you do it Lolipopo. So much more eloquent and forward.
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